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New Dust players should earn 3x points to catch up

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da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 11	Posted - 2013.04.29 03:54:00 - [1] - Quote I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?).
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:04:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed for reasons posted here on a similar topic.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:06:00 - [3] - Quote Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 983	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:21:00 - [4] - Quote No, just restrict pub matchs to not be able to be stomped with proto gear. Problem solved.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:28:00 - [5] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! I cannot say for sure, but I heard that EVE doesn't have a large number of new players like they want to get in DUST514. It is a F2P game, so the more the better, or at least that's what I believe. Again, I think it's a decision that's best made by something like marketing. If they want more FPS gamers, like I am, they need a steady stream of new players, and WAY MORE than what is currently playing the game, or at least the ability to keep way more of those players playing for longer than a week. If they want to go with the pure MMO model from EVE, that's cool too I guess. It has worked well for them in EVE. I just want a good and competitive FPS game. Someone said restrict n00bs to pubs. I don't want n00bs in pubs, I want them doing corp v corp battles with and against me. Let's be honest - how many corp v corp battles have you done recently? Do you want to continue playing against what we have right now, for months to come?
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:37:00 - [6] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. I disagree. Heck, I didn't own a console system until this December and only found out that this game existed not even 2 months ago. You assume that everyone knows about Dust - the game is still in beta! So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? By the end of the year, you'll have another 6-7 million SP starting today and you still feel threatened that a new player is able to skill up to 1.5 million SP a little faster? Wow, tell me you're not serious...
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:51:00 - [7] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Agreed for reasons posted here on a similar topic. Thanks 0 Try Harder, I didn't see that thread. However, I disagree with the idea of minimum SP for two reasons: 1) We already get minimum SP with some allocation. I can't remember what I got, but I got a couple hundred thousand unallocated SP points to start. 2) Paradox of choice. If you give players a ton of SP, they will be overwhelmed and I guarantee they will make selections that they will regret. But by granting the SP in the form of accelerated SP, you achieve two things. A) The player is allowed to discover what is working or not working for them. "Oh, I got killed really quickly, time to invest so I get more shields" or "What was that thing that let me spawn? Oh, lemme work to get that standard uplink or nanohive." B) It makes the player get invested into the game. If I can put on my business hat (I used to run a million dollar business), CCP needs new players who will invest time in the game and money in micro-transactions to keep Dust free. This game NEEDS a constant supply of new players who will become invested players. You kill that pipeline and CCP will have to downsize or close shop. I have a friend who was the project lead on some prominent games (one game rhymes with Esident Revil) so I like to think I got my information about how the video gaming industry works from a reliable source.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 259	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:52:00 - [8] - Quote no, dislikes
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 75	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:04:00 - [9] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. they wont, they'll LEAVE for other games this is NOT eve, so stop comparing the two. MMO space game VS FPS like comparing apples to T-Rex's
Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 177	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:17:00 - [10] - Quote I really don't see why they can't have the extra skill points. It's not like they'll be able to match me either way and if ya'll are afraid of losing easy pray then you're not good players to begin with.

Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 177	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:20:00 - [11] - Quote da master beta wrote: InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. I disagree. Heck, I didn't own a console system until this December and only found out that this game existed not even 2 months ago. You assume that everyone knows about Dust - the game is still in beta! So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? By the end of the year, you'll have another 6-7 million SP starting today and you still feel threatened that a new player is able to skill up to 1.5 million SP a little faster? Wow, tell me you're not serious... Well said
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:38:00 - [12] - Quote da master beta wrote: 1) We already get minimum SP with some allocation. I can't remember what I got, but I got a couple hundred thousand unallocated SP points to start. 2) Paradox of choice. If you give players a ton of SP, they will be overwhelmed and I guarantee they will make selections that they will regret. But by granting the SP in the form of accelerated SP, you achieve two things. A) The player is allowed to discover what is working or not working for them. "Oh, I got killed really quickly, time to invest so I get more shields" or "What was that thing that let me spawn? Oh, lemme work to get that standard uplink or nanohive." Yah, good points.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 183	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:39:00 - [13] - Quote I'm going to have to disagree to this. Part of a MMO is having someone above you and soon someone below you. I have ~7 mil SP and I know there are people have almost twice that and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. New players are going to see us OGs and see what they can aspire to if they stick with the game. Eventually those newer players will have somone just starting and doing the exact same with them. It's called incentive and it's one of the overlooked things meant to retain customers in a MMO.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 310	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:42:00 - [14] - Quote No What we need is a better matchmaking system. That is all.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:42:00 - [15] - Quote Quote: So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? Yes, deal with it.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 310	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:47:00 - [16] - Quote No. What we need is a decent matchmaking system. That is all.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2138	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:47:00 - [17] - Quote I don't think this is a bad idea. Eve Online had a similar thing going for new players which featured increased training speed up to a certain amount of SP. After that, the player will be throttled back to the standard SP rate in Eve. A temporary 3x SP rate up to 1.5 (one point five) million SP should be ok. It's enough to give new players a chance but not enough to become a specialist in anything. Hell, it took me 2 million SP total just to train Gallente Scout Dropsuit to level 5 and that's not including the core skills needed to back it up which require maybe another 4 million SP.
Shiro hoshi The Vanguardians Orion Empire 4	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:48:00 - [18] - Quote I have around 1.3 mil in skill points and I can hold my own. I learned how to do it because it took time when I started the game it gave me around 500,000 point and I wasted them. I am glad the reset is coming on the 6th. At most I would say let the new players for the first 7 days of game play have X2 boost, but no more than that unless they buy boosters with Arum. They want to move up fast they need to buy things like everyone else.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:50:00 - [19] - Quote I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2140	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:53:00 - [20] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result? It's not like that at all if I understand the OP correctly. Remember, new players will lose the "2-3x" gain after a certain point which, as I stated before, is not enough to specialize into anything but just enough to keep them salivating. Again, Eve has a similar thing going for it I believe.

Llan Heindell One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 17	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:57:00 - [21] - Quote Llan Heindell wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: I feel like this would set a precedent we don't want to set. Two years down the track do we give everyone ten million SP to start with and let them max out an entire specialisation on their first day? I hate to call slippery slope but Sp difference is always going to be an issue until the new players maxes their first specialisation. I hesitate to say "no" to 10 million SP because A) I don't know where this game will be or what the skill tree will look like in 2 years and B) by then, people could have most of the weapons maxed and can use whatever weapon is best suited for the situation, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to let new players specialize in one weapon and suit right off the bat. That being said, there's a minimum threshold where you simply won't be competitive against people with better suits and weapons because they're so far ahead of you. With 500,000 SP, your first matches (the very first impression of the game) are going to be constant deaths, which is going put a lot of people off. That's going to be the case just because they're learning the game, but if some extra SP helps to shorten that time considerably, I see no reason not to do it. I'm not sure we'd ever really need to go above 3 million or so SP (and that would be pretty far down the line) because once you get that, you can have a proto weapon, advanced suit, and proto shield or armor modules, which makes you competitive with anyone of your same skill level, even if they're using better gear. If I had more information about FW which is supposed to pull a lot of higher-tier players out of Instant Battles, then I might be less inclined to push for a higher starting SP, but they haven't shown me why anyone should play exclusively FW yet. -1 There are other ways to solve this problems, free SP for newbies is not one of them. Newbies need playerskill to survive with good gear, or else they'll find themselves out of ISK pretty quickly. Powerful gear is expensive, don't forget about that. Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. lol Llan Heindell. Just quoted my post from another similar topic. Llan Heindell.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2141	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:06:00 - [22] - Quote @Llan The context of that thread you referenced is different from this one. The other thread is comparable to upgrading the engines for new drivers as other (veteran) drivers upgrade to faster cars. This runs the risk of causing major traffic accidents which will cost the city too much money when you have noobs behind the wheels of powerful cars driving at 150 MPH. This thread is comparable to imposing a stricter speed limit after driving only one and a half miles. Even then, the starting speed limit is still no faster than 60 MPH during that time. The first one and half miles is to just give a feel for the car but not enough to be expert in it or cause any problems. Fake Edit: Not sure if this was a good analogy.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 116	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:07:00 - [23] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. Actually, yes. There are several things to help newer players train in eve, for example the cerebral accelerator implants - all very powerful implants, but they only function in your first month or so of play. The new players are keeping your party going - as much as I'm sure you love stomping them into the ground, if they don't come back you won't find dust as fun.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:08:00 - [24] - Quote Llan Heindell wrote: Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. OK So like I said earlier, CCP is going to make a decision on who they would like to play the game. Since the devs went with all EVE people and apparently almost no one who exclusively played FPS console games, they indeed might actually be going after the same market that all the EVE players are in. Since I am a console FPS gamer, I hope that CCP will go after people like me, and keep new players coming in like me happy. I do not play EVE, and although it started to sound cool, there is no way in the world I would ever start a game where I'm forever stuck at a huge gear disadvantage, and where I would slowly accumulate passive SP to make it so I can actually compete at the top level. There are two groups here.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:10:00 - [25] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Not sure if this was a good analogy. Seems like it is good enough.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2142	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:10:00 - [26] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Llan Heindell wrote: Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. OK So like I said earlier, CCP is going to make a decision on who they would like to play the game. Since the devs went with all EVE people and apparently almost no one who exclusively played FPS console games, they indeed might actually be going after the same market that all the EVE players are in. Since I am a console FPS gamer, I hope that CCP will go after people like me, and keep new players coming in like me happy. I do not play EVE, and although it started to sound cool, there is no way in the world I would ever start a game where I'm forever stuck at a huge gear disadvantage, and where I would slowly accumulate passive SP to make it so I can actually compete at the top level. There are two groups here. But you have to realize that there has to be a limit on how much of a boost a new player can receive. We'll just have to leave it to CCP to decide on that. They have the raw data anyways. We don't.
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:43:00 - [27] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result? That logic is flawed. On May 6th or 14th, Dust is going to officially launch. Those new players who discover the game will not have the benefit of getting 3x SP from April 24 to May 2. Is it fair that we got 3x SP in beta for the same week's worth of playing? You're getting 600,000 to 900,000 SP this week alone plus you can squeeze in another 200,000 from the May 3 to May 6. Lemme rephrase your logic and put it into the perspective of a new player on May 6th: "Why should a beta player be allowed to put in the same amount of time from April 24 to May 2 and get a greater result?" "Why should a closed beta player be able to keep SP and gear when other people weren't allowed to participate...heck, why should any beta player be allowed to keep the SP and gear from the test phase of the game now that's officially launched?"
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 137	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:09:00 - [28] - Quote da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). If noobs are given SP too fast it will be wasted and not focused on what is important. They will crh the same way and say vets are better. Let the SP stay the way it is.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:25:00 - [29] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). If noobs are given SP too fast it will be wasted and not focused on what is important. They will crh the same way and say vets are better. Let the SP stay the way it is. I shouldn't feed my baby because he might just waste the food and throw it everywhere. I should feed my baby because while he'll probably waste it, at least he'll get fed. I don't know about you, but I'm going with that latter option. 3x SP might be a bit much; 2x is closer to what EVE does. They'll hit the 1.5M SP in no time. It's not enough SP to be threatening to anyone, but it's enough to make them get the hang of the skill system; which is more the point than them min-maxing the SP into FOTW skills. If they put it all into one skill, they're losing out on core skills; that's their problem, not yours. They'll eventually learn, and if they don't then maybe Dust isn't really for them.
MacGoogles iS-me-name ThatsHott 6	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:21:00 - [30] - Quote New players have to save up sp like the rest of us, just because they "started" playing shouldn't mean they get special gifts, whats the fairness in that? Sure they won't be reppin proto like half this game does.. EDIT; didn't read post above >_<

Sylwester Dziewiecki BetaMax. CRONOS. 47	Posted - 2013.04.29 10:03:00 - [31] - Quote da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). In EVE new players get 100%+ till they get 2kk~~
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 187	Posted - 2013.04.29 10:41:00 - [32] - Quote Have people forgotten that there is nothing that us more experienced players have achieved that can't be achieved by a new player? Look at it. The maximum skill level is five. People are making it sound like because we have made it to lvl 5 in some/several skills new players never will. That's like saying that just because you reached lvl 81 in Skyrim, no-one else will. Someone who started the game after you, can become just as good as you in those same skills because there is an upper limit to each skill. The beta's been open for a while and I've seen advertisements for it all over FB, U-Tube, Newgrounds, and other sites as well as the PSN notifications when I turn on my PS3. And who says CCP won't have other special events where they will give away gear or boost SP or ISK earnings fro a week or weekend? We don't know. If CCP boosts newbies' SP earnings for the first bit, that on them, I think with the nature of a mixed active/passive SP system, newbies should earn SP like the rest of us. If I followed the pro-booster idea, then I should get boosted SP all the time because I only play 4 to 10 hours a week. :P
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries 241	Posted - 2013.04.29 11:02:00 - [33] - Quote +1 I don't mind if it's starting them with 1.5 million or giving 5x the SP until they get there, I just think it's important to give newer players a faster starting pace so there is a much shorter "time-to-competitiveness" or whatever you want to call it. Kind of interesting that we both picked the same number.
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. EoN. 309	Posted - 2013.04.29 11:20:00 - [34] - Quote lolno What game gave you a really good mechanism to catch up? none thats the answer unless you want to pay for it Anyways put in proper matchmaking with gear restrictions and its sorted
KalOfTheRathi Talon Strike Force LTD Orion Empire 376	Posted - 2013.04.29 12:04:00 - [35] - Quote No. Game is free, BETA is open and they could have already been here. From a gaming perspective you need to make sure that the reward system doesn't change dramatically. If you weren't around when they were messing with the How Much SP Is The Right Amount Per Battle it was horrible. High twenty thousands for the first match after maintenance regardless of how you did. Then the rewards dropped dramatically from then on finally ending at some miserable number again without regard as to your actual performance. It was disheartening which is a bad thing for the RPG side of the game. The reward system has to be consistent. The current system is reasonable and simply adding Passive SP can make the earn rate sufficient to bring a New Berry up to a reasonable SP level. Giving them 3x and dropping it after some arbitrary time will cause more players to quit soon after the drop. And it will cause rage among those that were there just before it but missed the 3x. This is a lose lose scenario.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 711	Posted - 2013.04.29 12:58:00 - [36] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. Actually, yes. There are several things to help newer players train in eve, for example the cerebral accelerator implants - all very powerful implants, but they only function in your first month or so of play. The new players are keeping your party going - as much as I'm sure you love stomping them into the ground, if they don't come back you won't find dust as fun. The only way to get those is either to buy in game (which will take much more isk than a newbie can expect to earn) or buying it via a promotion, either way you can pay actual money to catch up and dust is already much more lenient.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Unclaimed. 383	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:40:00 - [37] - Quote Wow, I am amazed at the people who don't want to make the game just slightly easier to get into. Just because you got stomped as a noob doesn't make it the right way to do things. Giving a new player a faster curve to not be worthless is a good thing, unless all you want to do is farm MLT wearing scrubs. Which is I guess where most of these naysayers get their kills from.
calisk galern BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 84	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:48:00 - [38] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. Actually, yes. There are several things to help newer players train in eve, for example the cerebral accelerator implants - all very powerful implants, but they only function in your first month or so of play. The new players are keeping your party going - as much as I'm sure you love stomping them into the ground, if they don't come back you won't find dust as fun. the cerbreal accelerator implant won't even come close to bringing a new player on terms with a veteran eve pilot.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2225	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:50:00 - [39] - Quote So wait... why do we have SP at all?
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. CRONOS. 1340	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:05:00 - [40] - Quote da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). EVE offers 2x up to 1.6 million. I see no reason not to add a similar system to Dust.

tribal wyvern ZionTCD Unclaimed. 818	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:11:00 - [41] - Quote da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you can't be bothered to put in the time to skill up then why should noobs gets special treatment!? Those of us who have exceeded 4mil sp have got there by grinding, and noobs need to do the same. Don't come at me with 'but new players need to catch up' crap. Online games ALWAYS have new players (wow, eve, guild wars, world of tanks, DCUO etc etc) even bf3, cod, Medal of Honor. In fact EVERY game that has an online multiplayer etc has new players. So what you're saying is that every few months new players should get 3x sp? Or maybe just RESET everyone every few months so lazy noobs don't have to work to get good!!! If you don't want to go against the higher skilled players there ARE other ways to gain sp (revive, hack, destroy, resupply etc) I'm sick of posts like this
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:37:00 - [42] - Quote da master beta wrote: InsidiousN wrote: I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result? That logic is flawed. On May 6th or 14th, Dust is going to officially launch. Those new players who discover the game will not have the benefit of getting 3x SP from April 24 to May 2. Is it fair that we got 3x SP in beta for the same week's worth of playing? You're getting 600,000 to 900,000 SP this week alone plus you can squeeze in another 200,000 from the May 3 to May 6. Lemme rephrase your logic and put it into the perspective of a new player on May 6th: "Why should a beta player be allowed to put in the same amount of time from April 24 to May 2 and get a greater result?" "Why should a closed beta player be able to keep SP and gear when other people weren't allowed to participate...heck, why should any beta player be allowed to keep the SP and gear from the test phase of the game now that's officially launched?" Anyways, thanks for everyone's input and I hope one of the developers strongly considers this option. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun, and supposed to last a long time. If I were to throw in another analogy, if Dust was a party, it would be a lot more fun if it was a house party where everyone is invited, is given a drink at the door and made to feel welcome, rather than being an exclusive black-tie affair where the old guard scoff at the newcomers who they feel didn't "earn their keep" like in "the old days". First off, don't try to put words in my mouth, let my words stand on their own and make you own arguments. My points: 1) This game has been open for anyone to play for months, any of these beta "benefits" we're available for anyone to earn. 2) If you want to make a 3X SP week after beta thats fine, but make it for everyone. A players gains much more by going from 1mil SP to 2mil SP than does a player going from 10mil SP to 11mil SP. 1 to 2 mil SP doubles a player's access to powerful skills, while 10 to 11 mil SP makes a player only 1/10th more powerful. 3) I'm not looking to ROFL Stomp nubs (ROFL will be stomping protos in PC), there is a very easy way to make sure noobs don't get stomped by protos. Outside of PC just make tiered instant battles. Battles for players with 0-2mil SP, 2-5mil SP, 5-10mil SP, and 10mil+ SP, and perhaps have a no SP cap instant battle for those brave souls who want to show what they can do against players with more SP.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 141	Posted - 2013.04.29 17:29:00 - [43] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: So wait... why do we have SP at all? Why indeed?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2144	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:07:00 - [44] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @Llan The context of that thread you referenced is different from this one. The other thread is comparable to upgrading the engines for new drivers as other (veteran) drivers upgrade to faster cars. This runs the risk of causing major traffic accidents which will cost the city too much money when you have noobs behind the wheels of powerful cars driving at 150 MPH. This thread is comparable to imposing a stricter speed limit after driving only one and a half miles. Even then, the starting speed limit is still no faster than 60 MPH during that time. The first one and half miles is to just give a feel for the car but not enough to be expert in it or cause any problems. Fake Edit: Not sure if this was a good analogy. Just to reiterate what I was referring to. Giving a slight boost to new players is nothing new in New Eden. Again, Eve Online has a similar system in place where new players are given a slight boost in training speed but only up to about 2million SP (give or take 200k~) after which the rate of gaining SP is throttled back to normal. This has the following benefits: 1. Gives new players a chance to try some skills and wet their feet a little to get a feel for the game. 2. This in no way breaks the game because the amount of SP given is no where near enough to specialize into anything let alone train up skills that support that specialty. If you have followed up on my Ninja Knifing Diaries, you will notice that it took me 1.2 million SP just to upgrade Gallente Scout Dropsuit to Level 5 which brings the overall SP invested into that book alone to 2.4 million SP. It also took nearly my entire 300k~ starter SP to train up Dropsuit Command to level 4 or 5. This is not including the massive investment I had to make to cover the core skills. It's one thing to quickly go proto on a suit or weapon. But that proto item is useless without the skills needed to back it up. You might be able to get a proto gun real quick but you'll have to sacrifice defenses, speed, damage mods, and fitting flexibility to use that weapon on a militia suit that is weak and severely limited. In retrospect, the same can be said for players who invested starter SP on core skills first but are unable to use the powerful weapons yet. So maybe a 2x starter SP gain up to 1.2~ million SP is ok on my book. But you still have to grind matches to take advantage of the minor boost. Active boosters should have NO impact on this limit in any way other than to expedite the player's speed to 1.2 million SP.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 284	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:24:00 - [45] - Quote I do not play EVE, but from the posts that I have read here it seems like many people who do believe that the only difference between starting players in EVE and longtime pilots. FPS games are different from EVE. You have to understand that in FPS games, there are multiple aspects that need to be learned that contribute to overall skill. Some of these carry over between FPS games, but every time a player starts a new FPS game, he has to start at the bottom and learn everything about the new game. FPS games have weapons, aiming, handling, maps, player patterns, modes, and many other things that need to be learned. These are all "actual" skill things that every new player goes into a game knowing next to nothing about. FPS players have ways to learn some of what they need to know faster than others, but that is up to them. SP just handicaps players and prevents them from learning the "skill" stuff that actually needs to be learned. This isn't stuff that you can just read about on forums or use a spreadsheet to figure out. This is not skill that you accumulate while not playing the game. The only way you can get better is to actually play the game. I see some people suggesting that new players make accounts, then don't play the game for a couple of weeks. What kind of a game is that? Who goes to a store, online or brick and mortar, buys a game, but then decides not to play it for weeks afterwards? The only reason I would not play a game after buying it is if I don't like it. Maybe I will come back to it later, maybe not.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 188	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:49:00 - [46] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: So wait... why do we have SP at all? Why indeed? It's so we don't end up with the same old boring generic arena shooter with a different setting.
Chunky Munkey Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 408	Posted - 2013.04.29 19:56:00 - [47] - Quote I've been saying this from the first SP topic I saw: A rolling cap with diminishing returns. Simples.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 188	Posted - 2013.04.29 20:18:00 - [48] - Quote Cool. Where's my bonus SP? I can't keep up because I play 10 or less hours a week. LOL No, really, I don't want bonus SP. It'd remove the sense of accomplishment I get from earning my skill levels even at my slow pace. If CCP gave them accelerated SP like Eve, then we should be willing to switch to an entirely passive skilling system like Eve. A change I would actually like. Then the amount of time actually spent playing would matter to everything but SP.
Severus Smith L.O.T.I.S. 222	Posted - 2013.04.29 20:38:00 - [49] - Quote +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over...
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 190	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:07:00 - [50] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over... The converse could be said. HTFU. You don't need special treatment. Being new doesn't make you special needs.

Godin Thekiller Ghost Wolf Industries 45	Posted - 2013.04.29 21:21:00 - [51] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Severus Smith wrote: +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over... The converse could be said. HTFU. You don't need special treatment. Being new doesn't make you special needs. This. We didn't rage for 4 months at our idiotic team to get where we are, only to have the bluedots to start out eaiser than we did. Peace, Godin
Severus Smith L.O.T.I.S. 222	Posted - 2013.04.29 22:26:00 - [52] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Severus Smith wrote: +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over... The converse could be said. HTFU. You don't need special treatment. Being new doesn't make you special needs. So, you want CCP to lose out on customers (therefore revenue) because you're butthurt that new players may gain 750,000 SP a few days faster than you did on day one? This isn't about new players. This isn't about you. It's about numbers. And right now the numbers say that a high amount of new players are quitting within hours of making a character. This is a problem, especially in a F2P game model, because lost customers means lost money. Best solution; offer new players incentives to stick around so that they feel invested. Psychology says that the more time and effort someone puts into something the less likely they are to drop it. Hence things like free starter fits, Militia fittings, and the OP proposed 2x SP to 1.5 million. These incentives cause new players to invest more time into the game, thus decreasing their drop rate. Lower drop rate = more money for CCP. This isn't about new players being special. And it sure as hell isn't about you being special. It is about business, retaining customers, reclaiming lost revenue, and financing this game. Any argument against this idea that amounts to "why didn't I get it" or "why are they special" just shows your business intelligence, or lack thereof.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2145	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:35:00 - [53] - Quote Chunky Munkey wrote: I've been saying this from the first SP topic I saw: A rolling cap with diminishing returns. Simples. Wrong topic. You're talking about weekly caps. We're talking about just the first 1.2 million SP for new players.
mollerz s1ck3r Corp 157	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:40:00 - [54] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: [quote=Shijima Kuraimaru][quote=Severus Smith] This isn't about new players. This isn't about you. It's about numbers. And right now the numbers say that a high amount of new players are quitting within hours of making a character.. You get that intel out of here.. ( ! )?
Buster Friently Rosen Association 312	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:40:00 - [55] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Severus Smith wrote: +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over... The converse could be said. HTFU. You don't need special treatment. Being new doesn't make you special needs. So, you want CCP to lose out on customers (therefore revenue) because you're butthurt that new players may gain 750,000 SP a few days faster than you did on day one? This isn't about new players. This isn't about you. It's about numbers. And right now the numbers say that a high amount of new players are quitting within hours of making a character. This is a problem, especially in a F2P game model, because lost customers means lost money. Best solution; offer new players incentives to stick around so that they feel invested. Psychology says that the more time and effort someone puts into something the less likely they are to drop it. Hence things like free starter fits, Militia fittings, and the OP proposed 2x SP to 1.5 million. These incentives cause new players to invest more time into the game, thus decreasing their drop rate. Lower drop rate = more money for CCP. This isn't about new players being special. And it sure as hell isn't about you being special. It is about business, retaining customers, reclaiming lost revenue, and financing this game. Any argument against this idea that amounts to "why didn't I get it" or "why are they special" just shows your business intelligence, or lack thereof. Here's the problem with this whole idea. More SP isn't going to help retain new players. More SP won't even help new players be better players. This is why I say that the solution is a better matchmaking system. New players to Dust are usually overwhelmed to begin with. If they had a crapload more SP they would just waste it on poor decisions. Additionally, they would simply spec up to more expensive gear and then start losing ISK like mad. If new players are getting killed all the time, adding more SP into the mix isn't going to change that. They need to learn the game. New players don't need more SP. They need a training mode, and they need a matchmaker that pits new players vs new players.
BOZ MR Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 81	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:44:00 - [56] - Quote 3X sp will make me play my alt till I hit 3X cap. It benefits old dudes rather than newbs more. What we need is a working matchmaking system.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2146	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:55:00 - [57] - Quote BOZ MR wrote: 3X sp will make me play my alt till I hit 3X cap. It benefits old dudes rather than newbs more. What we need is a working matchmaking system. 1. The 2-3x SP should not affect the cap in any way. You'll just hit the cap sooner during the first 1.5 million SP. 2. I agree. Matchmaking will help a lot as well. A combination of these two can go a long way. 3. I believe that if you throw in a training room or something similar, new players will be given a chance to test things out without the risk of losing them in battle.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 312	Posted - 2013.04.30 00:59:00 - [58] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: BOZ MR wrote: 3X sp will make me play my alt till I hit 3X cap. It benefits old dudes rather than newbs more. What we need is a working matchmaking system. 1. The 2-3x SP should not affect the cap in any way. You'll just hit the cap sooner during the first 1.5 million SP. 2. I agree. Matchmaking will help a lot as well. A combination of these two can go a long way. 3. I believe that if you throw in a training room or something similar, new players will be given a chance to test things out without the risk of losing them in battle. Which is why there is no need to alter the SP in any way. To retain new players you need to do two things: 1) funify the game - you do this with a good matchmaker. This way newberries are learning by fighting each other, not getting instakilled countless times by the vets. No amount of SP is going to change the inital ride here. 2) decomplexify the game - Add in a training area so newberries can learn how a dropship flies, or how to fire the forge gun without risking massive ISK in battle. No additional SP will help here either. In fact, extra SP makes this worse.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2146	Posted - 2013.04.30 01:03:00 - [59] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: BOZ MR wrote: 3X sp will make me play my alt till I hit 3X cap. It benefits old dudes rather than newbs more. What we need is a working matchmaking system. 1. The 2-3x SP should not affect the cap in any way. You'll just hit the cap sooner during the first 1.5 million SP. 2. I agree. Matchmaking will help a lot as well. A combination of these two can go a long way. 3. I believe that if you throw in a training room or something similar, new players will be given a chance to test things out without the risk of losing them in battle. Which is why there is no need to alter the SP in any way. To retain new players you need to do two things: 1) funify the game - you do this with a good matchmaker. This way newberries are learning by fighting each other, not getting instakilled countless times by the vets. No amount of SP is going to change the inital ride here. 2) decomplexify the game - Add in a training area so newberries can learn how a dropship flies, or how to fire the forge gun without risking massive ISK in battle. No additional SP will help here either. In fact, extra SP makes this worse. That's a good alternative.
Severus Smith L.O.T.I.S. 225	Posted - 2013.04.30 01:09:00 - [60] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Here's the problem with this whole idea. More SP isn't going to help retain new players. More SP won't even help new players be better players. This is why I say that the solution is a better matchmaking system. New players to Dust are usually overwhelmed to begin with. If they had a crapload more SP they would just waste it on poor decisions. Additionally, they would simply spec up to more expensive gear and then start losing ISK like mad. If new players are getting killed all the time, adding more SP into the mix isn't going to change that. They need to learn the game. New players don't need more SP. They need a training mode, and they need a matchmaker that pits new players vs new players. You are absolutely correct and I understand this won't fix the problem completely. But it will help. Truthfully, what needs to happen is either a rework of the matchmaking system to actually match similar SP players against each other or the introduction of Militia Only modes (which I've proposed before). However, new players like perks. And throwing them a measly 750,000 SP boost will keep them happy enough to keep trying and feel invested. What is needed is a Militia Only mode, with 2x SP up to 1.5 million, and some better tutorials. If those three things don't allow a player to get up to speed with the game then they were doomed from the start. New Eden is hard, but it doesn't need to be so hard that only the clinically insane, or masochists, stick around.

Buster Friently Rosen Association 314	Posted - 2013.04.30 01:23:00 - [61] - Quote Severus Smith wrote: Buster Friently wrote: Here's the problem with this whole idea. More SP isn't going to help retain new players. More SP won't even help new players be better players. This is why I say that the solution is a better matchmaking system. New players to Dust are usually overwhelmed to begin with. If they had a crapload more SP they would just waste it on poor decisions. Additionally, they would simply spec up to more expensive gear and then start losing ISK like mad. If new players are getting killed all the time, adding more SP into the mix isn't going to change that. They need to learn the game. New players don't need more SP. They need a training mode, and they need a matchmaker that pits new players vs new players. You are absolutely correct and I understand this won't fix the problem completely. But it will help. Truthfully, what needs to happen is either a rework of the matchmaking system to actually match similar SP players against each other or the introduction of Militia Only modes (which I've proposed before). However, new players like perks. And throwing them a measly 750,000 SP boost will keep them happy enough to keep trying and feel invested. What is needed is a Militia Only mode, with 2x SP up to 1.5 million, and some better tutorials. If those three things don't allow a player to get up to speed with the game then they were doomed from the start. New Eden is hard, but it doesn't need to be so hard that only the clinically insane, or masochists, stick around. Please see the second post for a little more reasoning why adding SP is actually counter to the solution. Adding SP won't help, and will actually cause more of a problem. Also, a militia mode is bad too as evidenced by all the counter arguments in the various militia mode threads to date. A training area would be useful, i.e a place to test gear. Also, a matchmaker that matches new players to other new players would be useful. Hell, in reality, just the matchmaker would be enough probably, but the training mode will help people to use their ISK and SP wisely. Throwing SP at someone who doesn't know what to put it in is just bad.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 285	Posted - 2013.04.30 01:49:00 - [62] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Wrong topic. You're talking about weekly caps. We're talking about just the first 1.2 million SP for new players. Oh, I was talking about the current 3x SP system CCP put in. Along with getting the bonus SP, the cap has been raised a bit.
SIRAJKNIGHT KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND Lokun Listamenn 61	Posted - 2013.04.30 02:03:00 - [63] - Quote No thanks, it took me months until i got the skillpoints i needed to skill up what i have currently. I don't want a newbie getting his 1 million sp in just a week
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 193	Posted - 2013.04.30 03:27:00 - [64] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: Severus Smith wrote: Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Severus Smith wrote: +1 to the OP. This game needs to retain new players, and giving them 2x SP (Active and Passive) until 1,600,000 SP is a good way to help. To any naysayers - shut the f*** up. If you're so threatened by this idea then wow, you're just a selfish child screaming "but I didn't get it, so he can't either." HTFU. This isn't about making it easier for new players, its about getting CCP more customers to pay for the freaking game you're feeling so entitled over... The converse could be said. HTFU. You don't need special treatment. Being new doesn't make you special needs. So, you want CCP to lose out on customers (therefore revenue) because you're butthurt that new players may gain 750,000 SP a few days faster than you did on day one? This isn't about new players. This isn't about you. It's about numbers. And right now the numbers say that a high amount of new players are quitting within hours of making a character. This is a problem, especially in a F2P game model, because lost customers means lost money. Best solution; offer new players incentives to stick around so that they feel invested. Psychology says that the more time and effort someone puts into something the less likely they are to drop it. Hence things like free starter fits, Militia fittings, and the OP proposed 2x SP to 1.5 million. These incentives cause new players to invest more time into the game, thus decreasing their drop rate. Lower drop rate = more money for CCP. This isn't about new players being special. And it sure as hell isn't about you being special. It is about business, retaining customers, reclaiming lost revenue, and financing this game. Any argument against this idea that amounts to "why didn't I get it" or "why are they special" just shows your business intelligence, or lack thereof. Here's the problem with this whole idea. More SP isn't going to help retain new players. More SP won't even help new players be better players. This is why I say that the solution is a better matchmaking system. New players to Dust are usually overwhelmed to begin with. If they had a crapload more SP they would just waste it on poor decisions. Additionally, they would simply spec up to more expensive gear and then start losing ISK like mad. If new players are getting killed all the time, adding more SP into the mix isn't going to change that. They need to learn the game. New players don't need more SP. They need a training mode, and they need a matchmaker that pits new players vs new players. It's not lack of faster SP gain that is causing new players to leave shortly after they've made a new character. It's that they get put in matches where squads full of protos are rolling all over them and they're lucky to get more than 1 or 2 kills while dying every 30 seconds. It's a discouraging situation. Anyone with a bit of common sense should easily see it. So match making might help. Having pub matches categorized by max level gear allowed would be better with one open so people who want to can take their lower gear and try to make a proto cry by popping him with a militia set up.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2148	Posted - 2013.04.30 04:04:00 - [65] - Quote SIRAJKNIGHT wrote: No thanks, it took me months until i got the skillpoints i needed to skill up what i have currently. I don't want a newbie getting his 1 million sp in just a week Ten years from now you will look back and wonder why any of us thought 1 million SP was a lot while you and I look at our astonishing 200 million SP while some Eve players have 400 million SP. Again, Eve Online has a similar incentive for new players working for them. But of course, after thinking about it, the console player is different from the PC player. On top of that, Eve players already have a myriad of off-line tools made available to them by third party developers and from CCP. I agree that maybe a solid matchmaking system mixed with a big enough training room/firing range is enough to give new players an incentive to stay.


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