DUST Search - New Dust players should earn 3x points to catch up

Llan Heindell wrote:

Parson Atreides wrote:

Mithridates VI wrote:

I feel like this would set a precedent we don't want to set.

Two years down the track do we give everyone ten million SP to start with and let them max out an entire specialisation on their first day?

I hate to call slippery slope but Sp difference is always going to be an issue until the new players maxes their first specialisation.

I hesitate to say "no" to 10 million SP because A) I don't know where this game will be or what the skill tree will look like in 2 years and B) by then, people could have most of the weapons maxed and can use whatever weapon is best suited for the situation, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to let new players specialize in one weapon and suit right off the bat.

That being said, there's a minimum threshold where you simply won't be competitive against people with better suits and weapons because they're so far ahead of you. With 500,000 SP, your first matches (the very first impression of the game) are going to be constant deaths, which is going put a lot of people off. That's going to be the case just because they're learning the game, but if some extra SP helps to shorten that time considerably, I see no reason not to do it.

I'm not sure we'd ever really need to go above 3 million or so SP (and that would be pretty far down the line) because once you get that, you can have a proto weapon, advanced suit, and proto shield or armor modules, which makes you competitive with anyone of your same skill level, even if they're using better gear.

If I had more information about FW which is supposed to pull a lot of higher-tier players out of Instant Battles, then I might be less inclined to push for a higher starting SP, but they haven't shown me why anyone should play exclusively FW yet.

-1

There are other ways to solve this problems, free SP for newbies is not one of them. Newbies need playerskill to survive with good gear, or else they'll find themselves out of ISK pretty quickly. Powerful gear is expensive, don't forget about that.

Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries.

Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. lol

Llan Heindell.

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da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 11	Posted - 2013.04.29 03:54:00 - [1] - Quote I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?).
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:04:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed for reasons posted here on a similar topic.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:06:00 - [3] - Quote Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 983	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:21:00 - [4] - Quote No, just restrict pub matchs to not be able to be stomped with proto gear. Problem solved.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:28:00 - [5] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! I cannot say for sure, but I heard that EVE doesn't have a large number of new players like they want to get in DUST514. It is a F2P game, so the more the better, or at least that's what I believe. Again, I think it's a decision that's best made by something like marketing. If they want more FPS gamers, like I am, they need a steady stream of new players, and WAY MORE than what is currently playing the game, or at least the ability to keep way more of those players playing for longer than a week. If they want to go with the pure MMO model from EVE, that's cool too I guess. It has worked well for them in EVE. I just want a good and competitive FPS game. Someone said restrict n00bs to pubs. I don't want n00bs in pubs, I want them doing corp v corp battles with and against me. Let's be honest - how many corp v corp battles have you done recently? Do you want to continue playing against what we have right now, for months to come?
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:37:00 - [6] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. I disagree. Heck, I didn't own a console system until this December and only found out that this game existed not even 2 months ago. You assume that everyone knows about Dust - the game is still in beta! So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? By the end of the year, you'll have another 6-7 million SP starting today and you still feel threatened that a new player is able to skill up to 1.5 million SP a little faster? Wow, tell me you're not serious...
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 12	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:51:00 - [7] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Agreed for reasons posted here on a similar topic. Thanks 0 Try Harder, I didn't see that thread. However, I disagree with the idea of minimum SP for two reasons: 1) We already get minimum SP with some allocation. I can't remember what I got, but I got a couple hundred thousand unallocated SP points to start. 2) Paradox of choice. If you give players a ton of SP, they will be overwhelmed and I guarantee they will make selections that they will regret. But by granting the SP in the form of accelerated SP, you achieve two things. A) The player is allowed to discover what is working or not working for them. "Oh, I got killed really quickly, time to invest so I get more shields" or "What was that thing that let me spawn? Oh, lemme work to get that standard uplink or nanohive." B) It makes the player get invested into the game. If I can put on my business hat (I used to run a million dollar business), CCP needs new players who will invest time in the game and money in micro-transactions to keep Dust free. This game NEEDS a constant supply of new players who will become invested players. You kill that pipeline and CCP will have to downsize or close shop. I have a friend who was the project lead on some prominent games (one game rhymes with Esident Revil) so I like to think I got my information about how the video gaming industry works from a reliable source.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 259	Posted - 2013.04.29 04:52:00 - [8] - Quote no, dislikes
Lord-of-the-Dreadfort The Lions Guard 75	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:04:00 - [9] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. they wont, they'll LEAVE for other games this is NOT eve, so stop comparing the two. MMO space game VS FPS like comparing apples to T-Rex's
Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 177	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:17:00 - [10] - Quote I really don't see why they can't have the extra skill points. It's not like they'll be able to match me either way and if ya'll are afraid of losing easy pray then you're not good players to begin with.

Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 177	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:20:00 - [11] - Quote da master beta wrote: InsidiousN wrote: Dust 514 has been open and free for anyone to play for 3 months now. Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. I disagree. Heck, I didn't own a console system until this December and only found out that this game existed not even 2 months ago. You assume that everyone knows about Dust - the game is still in beta! So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? By the end of the year, you'll have another 6-7 million SP starting today and you still feel threatened that a new player is able to skill up to 1.5 million SP a little faster? Wow, tell me you're not serious... Well said
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:38:00 - [12] - Quote da master beta wrote: 1) We already get minimum SP with some allocation. I can't remember what I got, but I got a couple hundred thousand unallocated SP points to start. 2) Paradox of choice. If you give players a ton of SP, they will be overwhelmed and I guarantee they will make selections that they will regret. But by granting the SP in the form of accelerated SP, you achieve two things. A) The player is allowed to discover what is working or not working for them. "Oh, I got killed really quickly, time to invest so I get more shields" or "What was that thing that let me spawn? Oh, lemme work to get that standard uplink or nanohive." Yah, good points.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 183	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:39:00 - [13] - Quote I'm going to have to disagree to this. Part of a MMO is having someone above you and soon someone below you. I have ~7 mil SP and I know there are people have almost twice that and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. New players are going to see us OGs and see what they can aspire to if they stick with the game. Eventually those newer players will have somone just starting and doing the exact same with them. It's called incentive and it's one of the overlooked things meant to retain customers in a MMO.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 310	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:42:00 - [14] - Quote No What we need is a better matchmaking system. That is all.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:42:00 - [15] - Quote Quote: So you're saying that if you don't join a game in beta that it's too bad for you? Yes, deal with it.
Buster Friently Rosen Association 310	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:47:00 - [16] - Quote No. What we need is a decent matchmaking system. That is all.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2138	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:47:00 - [17] - Quote I don't think this is a bad idea. Eve Online had a similar thing going for new players which featured increased training speed up to a certain amount of SP. After that, the player will be throttled back to the standard SP rate in Eve. A temporary 3x SP rate up to 1.5 (one point five) million SP should be ok. It's enough to give new players a chance but not enough to become a specialist in anything. Hell, it took me 2 million SP total just to train Gallente Scout Dropsuit to level 5 and that's not including the core skills needed to back it up which require maybe another 4 million SP.
Shiro hoshi The Vanguardians Orion Empire 4	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:48:00 - [18] - Quote I have around 1.3 mil in skill points and I can hold my own. I learned how to do it because it took time when I started the game it gave me around 500,000 point and I wasted them. I am glad the reset is coming on the 6th. At most I would say let the new players for the first 7 days of game play have X2 boost, but no more than that unless they buy boosters with Arum. They want to move up fast they need to buy things like everyone else.
InsidiousN KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 15	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:50:00 - [19] - Quote I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result?
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2140	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:53:00 - [20] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result? It's not like that at all if I understand the OP correctly. Remember, new players will lose the "2-3x" gain after a certain point which, as I stated before, is not enough to specialize into anything but just enough to keep them salivating. Again, Eve has a similar thing going for it I believe.

Llan Heindell One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 17	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:57:00 - [21] - Quote Llan Heindell wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Mithridates VI wrote: I feel like this would set a precedent we don't want to set. Two years down the track do we give everyone ten million SP to start with and let them max out an entire specialisation on their first day? I hate to call slippery slope but Sp difference is always going to be an issue until the new players maxes their first specialisation. I hesitate to say "no" to 10 million SP because A) I don't know where this game will be or what the skill tree will look like in 2 years and B) by then, people could have most of the weapons maxed and can use whatever weapon is best suited for the situation, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to let new players specialize in one weapon and suit right off the bat. That being said, there's a minimum threshold where you simply won't be competitive against people with better suits and weapons because they're so far ahead of you. With 500,000 SP, your first matches (the very first impression of the game) are going to be constant deaths, which is going put a lot of people off. That's going to be the case just because they're learning the game, but if some extra SP helps to shorten that time considerably, I see no reason not to do it. I'm not sure we'd ever really need to go above 3 million or so SP (and that would be pretty far down the line) because once you get that, you can have a proto weapon, advanced suit, and proto shield or armor modules, which makes you competitive with anyone of your same skill level, even if they're using better gear. If I had more information about FW which is supposed to pull a lot of higher-tier players out of Instant Battles, then I might be less inclined to push for a higher starting SP, but they haven't shown me why anyone should play exclusively FW yet. -1 There are other ways to solve this problems, free SP for newbies is not one of them. Newbies need playerskill to survive with good gear, or else they'll find themselves out of ISK pretty quickly. Powerful gear is expensive, don't forget about that. Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. lol Llan Heindell. Just quoted my post from another similar topic. Llan Heindell.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2141	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:06:00 - [22] - Quote @Llan The context of that thread you referenced is different from this one. The other thread is comparable to upgrading the engines for new drivers as other (veteran) drivers upgrade to faster cars. This runs the risk of causing major traffic accidents which will cost the city too much money when you have noobs behind the wheels of powerful cars driving at 150 MPH. This thread is comparable to imposing a stricter speed limit after driving only one and a half miles. Even then, the starting speed limit is still no faster than 60 MPH during that time. The first one and half miles is to just give a feel for the car but not enough to be expert in it or cause any problems. Fake Edit: Not sure if this was a good analogy.
Arkena Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus 116	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:07:00 - [23] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: Do new EVE players get extra XP when they start? Hell no! If you come to the party late, don't complain about there not being any shrimp left. Actually, yes. There are several things to help newer players train in eve, for example the cerebral accelerator implants - all very powerful implants, but they only function in your first month or so of play. The new players are keeping your party going - as much as I'm sure you love stomping them into the ground, if they don't come back you won't find dust as fun.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:08:00 - [24] - Quote Llan Heindell wrote: Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. OK So like I said earlier, CCP is going to make a decision on who they would like to play the game. Since the devs went with all EVE people and apparently almost no one who exclusively played FPS console games, they indeed might actually be going after the same market that all the EVE players are in. Since I am a console FPS gamer, I hope that CCP will go after people like me, and keep new players coming in like me happy. I do not play EVE, and although it started to sound cool, there is no way in the world I would ever start a game where I'm forever stuck at a huge gear disadvantage, and where I would slowly accumulate passive SP to make it so I can actually compete at the top level. There are two groups here.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 279	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:10:00 - [25] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Not sure if this was a good analogy. Seems like it is good enough.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organization 2142	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:10:00 - [26] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Llan Heindell wrote: Hopefully the arena modes and the PVE modes will bring some light for noob blueberries. Also, you guys that think this game might die, just check out EvE and rethink your theories. OK So like I said earlier, CCP is going to make a decision on who they would like to play the game. Since the devs went with all EVE people and apparently almost no one who exclusively played FPS console games, they indeed might actually be going after the same market that all the EVE players are in. Since I am a console FPS gamer, I hope that CCP will go after people like me, and keep new players coming in like me happy. I do not play EVE, and although it started to sound cool, there is no way in the world I would ever start a game where I'm forever stuck at a huge gear disadvantage, and where I would slowly accumulate passive SP to make it so I can actually compete at the top level. There are two groups here. But you have to realize that there has to be a limit on how much of a boost a new player can receive. We'll just have to leave it to CCP to decide on that. They have the raw data anyways. We don't.
da master beta Kinsho Swords Caldari State 14	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:43:00 - [27] - Quote InsidiousN wrote: I put in a certain amount of time and effort to earn as many Skill Points as I have, why should a new player be allowed to put in less time and get the same result? That logic is flawed. On May 6th or 14th, Dust is going to officially launch. Those new players who discover the game will not have the benefit of getting 3x SP from April 24 to May 2. Is it fair that we got 3x SP in beta for the same week's worth of playing? You're getting 600,000 to 900,000 SP this week alone plus you can squeeze in another 200,000 from the May 3 to May 6. Lemme rephrase your logic and put it into the perspective of a new player on May 6th: "Why should a beta player be allowed to put in the same amount of time from April 24 to May 2 and get a greater result?" "Why should a closed beta player be able to keep SP and gear when other people weren't allowed to participate...heck, why should any beta player be allowed to keep the SP and gear from the test phase of the game now that's officially launched?"
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 137	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:09:00 - [28] - Quote da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). If noobs are given SP too fast it will be wasted and not focused on what is important. They will crh the same way and say vets are better. Let the SP stay the way it is.
J-Lewis Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 26	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:25:00 - [29] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: da master beta wrote: I really enjoyed getting 3x points this week. I think that it would be a good idea for new Dust players to be granted something like this when they first join so that they have an incentive to get the ball rolling on a character. For example, give them 5x points until they hit 1.5 million SP. That way, they can catch up and invest in some decent skills to catch up and counter the more experienced players who are using prototype equipment to destroy the new players (what, you guys have some inadequacy issues?). If noobs are given SP too fast it will be wasted and not focused on what is important. They will crh the same way and say vets are better. Let the SP stay the way it is. I shouldn't feed my baby because he might just waste the food and throw it everywhere. I should feed my baby because while he'll probably waste it, at least he'll get fed. I don't know about you, but I'm going with that latter option. 3x SP might be a bit much; 2x is closer to what EVE does. They'll hit the 1.5M SP in no time. It's not enough SP to be threatening to anyone, but it's enough to make them get the hang of the skill system; which is more the point than them min-maxing the SP into FOTW skills. If they put it all into one skill, they're losing out on core skills; that's their problem, not yours. They'll eventually learn, and if they don't then maybe Dust isn't really for them.
MacGoogles iS-me-name ThatsHott 6	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:21:00 - [30] - Quote New players have to save up sp like the rest of us, just because they "started" playing shouldn't mean they get special gifts, whats the fairness in that? Sure they won't be reppin proto like half this game does.. EDIT; didn't read post above >_<



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