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Moonracer2000
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
416
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Posted - 2013.04.20 16:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are several items in the player market that are ptototype level, AUR only and offer advantages you can not obtain from ISK variants (primarily lower CPU/PG requirements). CCP has stated that they do not want AUR items available that offer advantages over what is available in the ISK market. Because we are getting our SP respec and AUR/ISK items refunded this is an excellent time to remove those items from the market and the game to eliminate advantages of stockpiled goods.
CCP, please be true to your claim of wanting to limit P2W advantages and keep these items and similar out of the game until there is a secondary player market.
This request is based off of this thread in general discussion. And this question from the recent Reddit AMA.
Here is a list of the items in question if anyone wants to verify for themselves.
Spacetits CDXX (on reddit) wrote: Here is a list of top-tier/proto-level AUR items which have better PG/CPU than any ISK alternative:
'Centrifuge' Ishukone Flux Nanohive 'Schizm' Viziam Repair Tool 'Codewish' Duvolle Tac AR 'Spitfire' Six Kin Submachine Gun 'Tether' Complex Shield Regulator 'Pandemic' Complex Codebreaker 'Cascade' Complex Light Damage Mod 'Seismic' Complex Heavy Damage Mod 'Sliver' Complex Sidearm Damage Mod
The following AUR items offer other other advantages unavailable in ISK gear:
'Abyss' Carthum Drop Uplink (spawn time reduction) 'Downwind' C15-A Tac Sniper Rifle (higher damage than any other Tac variant)
Additionally, the 'HC-130' Gunnlogi and 'LC-217' Saga have slightly better CPU capacity than the ISK versions of the vehicles, although these are much more of a gray area since there are higher-tier ISK vehicles that outclass them anyway.
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The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
410
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Posted - 2013.04.20 16:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Reduced Spawn Timers R-9 Drop Uplink, N-11/A Flux Drop Uplink, Flux Drop Uplink, Imperial Drop Uplink all rpvide Faster Spawns. The Abys will not persist beyond the owner's death.
The "Downwind" C15-A Tactical Sniper Rifle has 1/3 the Rate of Fire of any Tactical Sniper Rifle.
The items with lower PG/ CPU I can agree they shouldn't be in there. Only, imho, should be the lower Skill Requirements, not lower Fitting requirements. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
204
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Posted - 2013.04.20 17:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests.
While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it". |
The Black Jackal
The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION
410
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Posted - 2013.04.20 17:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Spacetits CDXX wrote:Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests. While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it".
We're not "allowed" to post on that. According to the OP. I myself was told to 'go post elsewhere'. So I pointedly stated here my opinion. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
204
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Posted - 2013.04.20 17:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Spacetits CDXX wrote:Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests. While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it". We're not "allowed" to post on that. According to the OP. I myself was told to 'go post elsewhere'. So I pointedly stated here my opinion.
That's fine man, I was addressing Moonracer more than you, just re: having these two separate request threads. That was all I was trying to say. |
GeneralButtNaked
ZionTCD
349
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Posted - 2013.04.20 17:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Spacetits CDXX wrote:Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests. While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it". We're not "allowed" to post on that. According to the OP. I myself was told to 'go post elsewhere'. So I pointedly stated here my opinion.
Read my OP next time before you try and start a debate. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
204
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Posted - 2013.04.20 18:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
The Black Jackal wrote:Reduced Spawn Timers R-9 Drop Uplink, N-11/A Flux Drop Uplink, Flux Drop Uplink, Imperial Drop Uplink all rpvide Faster Spawns. The Abys will not persist beyond the owner's death.
The "Downwind" C15-A Tactical Sniper Rifle has 1/3 the Rate of Fire of any Tactical Sniper Rifle.
The items with lower PG/ CPU I can agree they shouldn't be in there. Only, imho, should be the lower Skill Requirements, not lower Fitting requirements.
The Abyss has a -60% spawn time modifier which is huge. The largest modifier on any of the ISK gear is -20%. Granted it does despawn on owner's death.
The Downwind has 189.5 damage and 66.7 ROF. By comparison, the top ISK Tac Sniper Rifle has 177.6 damage and 100.0 ROF.
Granted these items have some disadvantages compared to the ISK gear. They also have some advantages unavailable to the ISK gear. There is a tradeoff, but someone using only ISK gear should also be able to decide if that tradeoff is worth it. Right now only people who buy AUR gear can buy that gear and make that decision. |
Torr Wrath
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
167
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Posted - 2013.04.20 19:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Moonracer2000 wrote:There are several items in the player market that are ptototype level, AUR only and offer advantages you can not obtain from ISK variants (primarily lower CPU/PG requirements). CCP has stated that they do not want AUR items available that offer advantages over what is available in the ISK market. Because we are getting our SP respec and AUR/ISK items refunded this is an excellent time to remove those items from the market and the game to eliminate advantages of stockpiled goods.
I dont mind if they stay, as long as they are fixed to be EXACTLY the same as the non aurum items, save for the singular and absolutely only possible exception of lower skill requirement to fit them. THE PG/CPU/Damage/ROF/everything else should be identical to the base item. |
OP's Dirty Secret
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 20:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Agreed. 2 many people like markul gartel running around with killswitch's doing more damage than my duvolle using mommies credit card. .1 dps or no you shouldn't have to pay for aurum varients to feel like you're bringing the very best to the table. especially those complex damage mods. I'd like to see CCP allow details on the players you killed, at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I helped CCP earn a little extra cash each time I kill a pubbie. |
Altina McAlterson
Not Guilty EoN.
476
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Posted - 2013.04.20 22:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
OP's Dirty Secret wrote:Agreed. 2 many people like markul gartel running around with killswitch's doing more damage than my duvolle using mommies credit card. .1 dps or no you shouldn't have to pay for aurum varients to feel like you're bringing the very best to the table. especially those complex damage mods. I'd like to see CCP allow details on the players you killed, at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I helped CCP earn a little extra cash each time I kill a pubbie. Just stop talking, seriously. With Weaponry V, AR Proficiency III and 2 damage mods my 'killswitch' does 0.29% more damage than my Duvolle and that's probably just and rounding/display error in base damage.
I'll tell Mark he has a fan though next time I see him in corp chat. And I'm going to kill you with a militia AR repeatedly just for acting a fool. Soon as I figure out who you are anyway. |
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OP's Dirty Secret
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.04.21 03:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Omgod, trollhard514 on his spai account...wtf http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=mufasa+mufasa+mufasa&mid=5C787542C71D2E4E60F15C787542C71D2E4E60F1&view=detail&FORM=VIRE5 |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
2567
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Posted - 2013.04.21 10:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
I say they need to adjust these items to work more in line with how other AUR items work - balance them properly against the equivalant ISK item/weapon instead of making them functionally superior - whether that's because of directly superior capabilities or the indirect advantage of better fitting options.
Also, I suggest disregarding General's topic until he learns that forums are for discussion on topics, not for "answer my specific questions and nothing else or GTFO my thread". Not meaning anything against you as a person, or a player, General, but lrn2interwebz. |
GeneralButtNaked
ZionTCD
365
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Posted - 2013.04.21 13:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
Also, I suggest disregarding General's topic until he learns that forums are for discussion on topics, not for "answer my specific questions and nothing else or GTFO my thread". Not meaning anything against you as a person, or a player, General, but lrn2interwebz.
Thanks?
We have all talked about this enough haven't we? The only thing that remains is for CCP to remove them or justify them. |
Altina McAlterson
Not Guilty EoN.
479
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 14:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
I have to know or it will bug me for at least a day, maybe even two: The hell are you talking about? |
Markul Gartel
Not Guilty EoN.
0
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Posted - 2013.04.21 16:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
OP's Dirty Secret wrote:Agreed. 2 many people like markul gartel running around with killswitch's doing more damage than my duvolle using mommies credit card. .1 dps or no you shouldn't have to pay for aurum varients to feel like you're bringing the very best to the table. especially those complex damage mods. I'd like to see CCP allow details on the players you killed, at least give me the satisfaction of knowing I helped CCP earn a little extra cash each time I kill a pubbie.
Luckily my mommy let me buy 100 more kill switches today ! Will you be available for a battle? |
Moonracer2000
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
429
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Posted - 2013.04.21 17:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
GeneralButtNaked wrote: We have all talked about this enough haven't we? The only thing that remains is for CCP to remove them or justify them.
Sadly if we just sit quietly and wait, CCP will probably not answer and threads like this will disappear. Also, many players are still not aware of this issue or don't believe it is a big deal.
I welcome people to oppose the topic because it creates an active dialogue, keeps the thread interesting and sharpens the argument. If someone convinces me that this is not a big deal I will agree and even edit my OP to add those points.
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
885
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 19:54:00 -
[17] - Quote
Moonracer2000 wrote:There are several items in the player market that are ptototype level, AUR only and offer advantages you can not obtain from ISK variants (primarily lower CPU/PG requirements). CCP has stated that they do not want AUR items available that offer advantages over what is available in the ISK market. Because we are getting our SP respec and AUR/ISK items refunded this is an excellent time to remove those items from the market and the game to eliminate advantages of stockpiled goods. CCP, please be true to your claim of wanting to limit P2W advantages and keep these items and similar out of the game until there is a secondary player market. This request is based off of this thread in general discussion. And this question from the recent Reddit AMA. Here is a list of the items in question if anyone wants to verify for themselves. Spacetits CDXX (on reddit) wrote: Here is a list of top-tier/proto-level AUR items which have better PG/CPU than any ISK alternative:
'Centrifuge' Ishukone Flux Nanohive 'Schizm' Viziam Repair Tool 'Codewish' Duvolle Tac AR 'Spitfire' Six Kin Submachine Gun 'Tether' Complex Shield Regulator 'Pandemic' Complex Codebreaker 'Cascade' Complex Light Damage Mod 'Seismic' Complex Heavy Damage Mod 'Sliver' Complex Sidearm Damage Mod
The following AUR items offer other other advantages unavailable in ISK gear:
'Abyss' Carthum Drop Uplink (spawn time reduction) 'Downwind' C15-A Tac Sniper Rifle (higher damage than any other Tac variant)
Additionally, the 'HC-130' Gunnlogi and 'LC-217' Saga have slightly better CPU capacity than the ISK versions of the vehicles, although these are much more of a gray area since there are higher-tier ISK vehicles that outclass them anyway.
Edit: also, this thread in feedback is on the same subject and may have more information/opinions.
The 'HC-130' Gunnlogi and 'LC-217' Saga are fine as there are superior ISK variants (as you note). That aside +1 to the thread. Until we have a secondary/player market seeding of "above proto" goods for AUR only is both ill advised and (IMO) violates the spirit of the game. After a fully functional (read: has no fewer features than the EVE: Online market, tho full integration isn't required) market is implemented then I have no problem with the items listed, even in their present state, being available, however until then they really should be pulled.
0.02 ISK Cross |
Jedah McClintock
McClintock's Mercs
13
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Posted - 2013.04.21 20:19:00 -
[18] - Quote
This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
212
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:The 'HC-130' Gunnlogi and 'LC-217' Saga are fine as there are superior ISK variants (as you note). That aside +1 to the thread. Until we have a secondary/player market seeding of "above proto" goods for AUR only is both ill advised and (IMO) violates the spirit of the game. After a fully functional (read: has no fewer features than the EVE: Online market, tho full integration isn't required) market is implemented then I have no problem with the items listed, even in their present state, being available, however until then they really should be pulled.
0.02 ISK Cross
Yeah, the AUR Gunnlogi and Saga are easily the least objectionable items on that list. I only added them as an addendum because they were in the category of 'other things with minor stat differences between AUR and ISK variants'. I still feel they probably should have the CPU reduced to match the ISK versions, but ultimately if they didn't, it wouldn't be that big a deal. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
212
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jedah McClintock wrote:This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs?
That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options:
1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items.
However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same...
That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement. |
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Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1209
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Spacetits CDXX wrote:Jedah McClintock wrote:This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options: 1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items. However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same... That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement.
There's also option 4:
Implementing the Player Market. |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
212
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Posted - 2013.04.21 21:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Spacetits CDXX wrote:Jedah McClintock wrote:This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options: 1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items. However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same... That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement. There's also option 4: Implementing the Player Market.
That would also solve it, but that's not happening for Uprising. |
Altina McAlterson
Not Guilty EoN.
483
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 22:06:00 -
[23] - Quote
There's another thread about the economic impact of these things you guys should check out in General Discussion. I really think that might be a bigger issue, Of the three factors to the outcome of a battle in this game gear is trumped by proper SP allocation and player skill by a large margin so somebody having a complex mod where you can only fit an advanced really isn't a gamebreaker. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
885
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 05:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Baal Roo wrote:Spacetits CDXX wrote:Jedah McClintock wrote:This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options: 1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items. However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same... That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement. There's also option 4: Implementing the Player Market. +1 Baal |
Soozu
5o1st
57
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Posted - 2013.04.22 05:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some pay to win grenades as well, the kind that explode on impact with no ISK varients? |
Spacetits CDXX
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
215
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Posted - 2013.04.22 06:10:00 -
[26] - Quote
Soozu wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some pay to win grenades as well, the kind that explode on impact with no ISK varients?
The explode-on-impact grenades (Fused Locus Grenades) come with the Merc Pack, but they're not available to purchase on the market for either AUR or ISK. I suppose you are purchasing them (along with a bunch of other stuff) for $20 ... but only 50 come with each Merc Pack; it'd be pretty ridiculous to think of buying dozens of Merc Packs just to restock those grenades.
In any case, I feel like that's a different issue when we're talking about those sorts of bundles as opposed to the items directly on the market for AUR. |
Soozu
5o1st
57
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Posted - 2013.04.22 06:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
Spacetits CDXX wrote:Soozu wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some pay to win grenades as well, the kind that explode on impact with no ISK varients? The explode-on-impact grenades (Fused Locus Grenades) come with the Merc Pack, but they're not available to purchase on the market for either AUR or ISK. I suppose you are purchasing them (along with a bunch of other stuff) for $20 ... but only 50 come with each Merc Pack; it'd be pretty ridiculous to think of buying dozens of Merc Packs just to restock those grenades. In any case, I feel like that's a different issue when we're talking about those sorts of bundles as opposed to the items directly on the market for AUR.
Actually I've never had them, but I've been killed by them a few times. And I've known people to buy several merc packs, one a month... so there might be people who have hundreds stocked. In fact many of the AUR items listed don't bug me at all, but explode on impact grenades are ridiculously pay to win. Cooking grenades takes skill. Paying to have them pre-cooked...... I think falls under the title of "Supremacy Goods" |
BlG MAMA
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
54
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Posted - 2013.04.22 10:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
waiting for CCP drones to say its still not P2W i agree CCP needs to get their money back from making Dust514 but not like this this suits CCP wallets more than it suits US , the players AURUM items need to be REMOVED |
rpastry
Carbon 7
37
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Posted - 2013.04.22 11:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
+1 to remove AU items that are better than any ISK item (Or introduce equivalent ISK Versions).
Other than that I don't mind the micropayment system.
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Deranged Disaster
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
85
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Posted - 2013.04.22 11:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quoting the FAQ in the main page.
Quote:CAN YOU EXPLAIN THE MARKEPLACE? DUST 514 marks a first for consoles as a AAA free-to-play FPS. Players can download the game from the PlayStation-«Network and play DUST 514 completely free of charge. Players earn ISK, an in-game currency, by winning battles, doing missions, and more. Players can also buy Aurum, another in-game currency, through the PlayStation-«Store. Players looking to customize their experience can spend either ISK or Aurum on a variety of microtransaction purchases. That said, DUST 514 is not a pay-to-win game. Players purchasing items with Aurum will not result in an unfair advantage over players who only spend ISK, the in-game earned currency.
Even as a DUST 514 "fanboy" I find this completely dissapointing. If CCP keeps breaking promises I smell either a dead game, or a game full of people who lack FPS skills to play anything else and result into paying to win in order to make themselves feel better. |
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