DUST Search - [Request] Remove "Supremacy Goods" from game for Uprising

Cross Atu wrote:

Spacetits CDXX wrote:

Yeah, the AUR Gunnlogi and Saga are easily the least objectionable items on that list. I only added them as an addendum because they were in the category of 'other things with minor stat differences between AUR and ISK variants'. I still feel they probably should have the CPU reduced to match the ISK versions, but ultimately if they didn't, it wouldn't be that big a deal.

Don't get me wrong I'm glad they're listed as I think they have a place in this discussion, I simply don't believe there to be a balance issue so long as the top of the line AUR gear available in a given area isn't mechanically better in any way than the top of the line ISK gear of the same type. In theory I suppose that could be extended to apply to balancing within each Meta level but I'm honestly not that concerned by the smaller gradients in this case since (as the AI voice points out) "AUR lets you do more, faster" as long as the end game state is one where the best ISK gear on the market is equal too or better than the best AUR gear on the market then all is well. (A note here, salvage only drops are a thing of their own and should not construed to be part of my point when assessing "best non-AUR gear").

In any event I'm glad you brought both HAVs up, I just don't see them as an actual balance concern when taken within context.

Cheers,
Cross


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Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 204	Posted - 2013.04.20 17:13:00 - [1] - Quote Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests. While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it".
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 204	Posted - 2013.04.20 17:42:00 - [2] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Spacetits CDXX wrote: Just FYI there is already this thread in Feedback/Requests. While I'm not opposed to making a request specifically to pull these items, I would like to see even a response from CCP that goes beyond "we'll look into it". We're not "allowed" to post on that. According to the OP. I myself was told to 'go post elsewhere'. So I pointedly stated here my opinion. That's fine man, I was addressing Moonracer more than you, just re: having these two separate request threads. That was all I was trying to say.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 204	Posted - 2013.04.20 18:00:00 - [3] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Reduced Spawn Timers R-9 Drop Uplink, N-11/A Flux Drop Uplink, Flux Drop Uplink, Imperial Drop Uplink all rpvide Faster Spawns. The Abys will not persist beyond the owner's death. The "Downwind" C15-A Tactical Sniper Rifle has 1/3 the Rate of Fire of any Tactical Sniper Rifle. The items with lower PG/ CPU I can agree they shouldn't be in there. Only, imho, should be the lower Skill Requirements, not lower Fitting requirements. The Abyss has a -60% spawn time modifier which is huge. The largest modifier on any of the ISK gear is -20%. Granted it does despawn on owner's death. The Downwind has 189.5 damage and 66.7 ROF. By comparison, the top ISK Tac Sniper Rifle has 177.6 damage and 100.0 ROF. Granted these items have some disadvantages compared to the ISK gear. They also have some advantages unavailable to the ISK gear. There is a tradeoff, but someone using only ISK gear should also be able to decide if that tradeoff is worth it. Right now only people who buy AUR gear can buy that gear and make that decision.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 212	Posted - 2013.04.21 21:28:00 - [4] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: The 'HC-130' Gunnlogi and 'LC-217' Saga are fine as there are superior ISK variants (as you note). That aside +1 to the thread. Until we have a secondary/player market seeding of "above proto" goods for AUR only is both ill advised and (IMO) violates the spirit of the game. After a fully functional (read: has no fewer features than the EVE: Online market, tho full integration isn't required) market is implemented then I have no problem with the items listed, even in their present state, being available, however until then they really should be pulled. 0.02 ISK Cross Yeah, the AUR Gunnlogi and Saga are easily the least objectionable items on that list. I only added them as an addendum because they were in the category of 'other things with minor stat differences between AUR and ISK variants'. I still feel they probably should have the CPU reduced to match the ISK versions, but ultimately if they didn't, it wouldn't be that big a deal.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 212	Posted - 2013.04.21 21:35:00 - [5] - Quote Jedah McClintock wrote: This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options: 1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items. However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same... That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 212	Posted - 2013.04.21 21:40:00 - [6] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Spacetits CDXX wrote: Jedah McClintock wrote: This might be a silly question, but instead of removing the AUR based items with distinct advantages, why not make ISK gear with similar (if not identical) specs? That would also be fine from the point of view of eliminating supremacy goods. There are really 3 options: 1) remove the problematic AUR items 2) nerf the problematic AUR items to match the equivalent ISK items 3) buff the equivalent ISK items to match the problematic AUR items. However, buffing the ISK items to match the AUR items as they stand now would make the market hierarchy sort of absurd, because in several cases, you would be going from an ISK Advanced-tier item to an ISK Proto-tier item with the same or very similar CPU/PG requirements. Usually you expect CPU/PG requirements to go up as you progress through the gear tiers, not stay the same... That isn't to say it couldn't be done, but for the sake of general gear balance, the rest of the market would have to be reworked. Options 1 or 2 would be much simpler to implement. There's also option 4: Implementing the Player Market. That would also solve it, but that's not happening for Uprising.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 215	Posted - 2013.04.22 06:10:00 - [7] - Quote Soozu wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some pay to win grenades as well, the kind that explode on impact with no ISK varients? The explode-on-impact grenades (Fused Locus Grenades) come with the Merc Pack, but they're not available to purchase on the market for either AUR or ISK. I suppose you are purchasing them (along with a bunch of other stuff) for $20 ... but only 50 come with each Merc Pack; it'd be pretty ridiculous to think of buying dozens of Merc Packs just to restock those grenades. In any case, I feel like that's a different issue when we're talking about those sorts of bundles as opposed to the items directly on the market for AUR.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 234	Posted - 2013.04.23 18:03:00 - [8] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Spacetits CDXX wrote: Yeah, the AUR Gunnlogi and Saga are easily the least objectionable items on that list. I only added them as an addendum because they were in the category of 'other things with minor stat differences between AUR and ISK variants'. I still feel they probably should have the CPU reduced to match the ISK versions, but ultimately if they didn't, it wouldn't be that big a deal. Don't get me wrong I'm glad they're listed as I think they have a place in this discussion, I simply don't believe there to be a balance issue so long as the top of the line AUR gear available in a given area isn't mechanically better in any way than the top of the line ISK gear of the same type. In theory I suppose that could be extended to apply to balancing within each Meta level but I'm honestly not that concerned by the smaller gradients in this case since (as the AI voice points out) "AUR lets you do more, faster" as long as the end game state is one where the best ISK gear on the market is equal too or better than the best AUR gear on the market then all is well. (A note here, salvage only drops are a thing of their own and should not construed to be part of my point when assessing "best non-AUR gear"). In any event I'm glad you brought both HAVs up, I just don't see them as an actual balance concern when taken within context. Cheers, Cross You make a reasonable point and ultimately I think we're more or less in agreement here. Balancing within each meta level would be nice but I agree it doesn't matter too much if it's not the top meta level. If CCP addresses the rest of the items on the list by Uprising (as I guess they said on the stream, haven't watched it yet) and the vehicles stay as they currently are I would be happy with that.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 245	Posted - 2013.04.23 23:20:00 - [9] - Quote Just watched the stream on DUST Q&A (Link, around the 42-43 minute mark). So those items are all "authoring mistakes" that "slipped through the cracks", huh guys? They do claim these items are already removed for Uprising, so we'll see how that is. I'll be happy to drop this if all this gear is gone then (and there aren't new AUR supremacy goods), but saying this was all just a giant coding error seems pretty disingenuous. Somehow it seems more likely that CCP knew what they were doing when they wrote the descriptions for those items (descriptions which explicitly specify that the advantage is lower CPU/PG consumption) and they were just testing the waters to see if there was any pushback from the playerbase on this.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 245	Posted - 2013.04.23 23:22:00 - [10] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: When all AUR items are available for ISK would you still have a problem with these supremacy goods? No, assuming the market was fully functional (i.e. player-set supply and demand determining prices).

Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 262	Posted - 2013.04.28 15:24:00 - [11] - Quote Well, it looks like we've hit the point in this thread where it's long enough that some people responding don't actually read the discussion before commenting. In any case, I declare this thread dead until May 6th, since CCP claimed in the pre-Fanfest livestream (link above) that these items will be removed for Uprising. So right now, all we can do is wait and see. Hopefully the goods listed in OP will be gone and nothing similar will suddenly appear. I'll be happy to make another list if such things do appear in Uprising, but right now, please bear in mind (before posting) that the specific request of this thread has been claimed to be addressed in Uprising.
Spacetits CDXX Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 268	Posted - 2013.05.07 14:59:00 - [12] - Quote Necro'ing this thread just in order to bring some closure to it. So, it does look as though all these items have been fixed for Uprising. All the proto-tier AUR items which previously had better PG/CPU reqs have been moved to Advanced-tier skills required for use, same PG/CPU as the ISK variants. Since this is what we were asking for, I am happy with this. The only potentially questionable item still remaining is: Spacetits CDXX (on reddit) wrote: 'Abyss' Carthum Drop Uplink (spawn time reduction) which still has a -75% to spawn time reduction, still more than any ISK Drop Uplink. However, the ISK proto Uplinks have been buffed so they have -50% across the board, and the Flux variant has -62%, so the discrepancy between the 'Abyss' and the ISK versions is much less than it was. The 'Abyss' also has, of course, the unique disadvantage of despawning on the owner's death. I still would prefer for this piece of equipment to have an ISK version, but I do not think this single piece of gear by itself is massively imbalanced. Also, the AUR Gunnlogi and Saga still have better CPU than the ISK versions, but as discussed at more length above (primarily with Cross Atu), this is not a huge issue in the end. Congrats to everyone who helped forum warrior on this issue, we did at least play a part in pointing out these items and getting CCP to change them. And on that note, I declare this thread dead, again. Please do not post here unless you have read the entirety of this thread, understand which items we're talking about, and have something more to say about these items in Uprising.