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Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:37:00 - [61] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: What are your opinions on how the CPM should be structured moving forward. Is a representative body even necessary in today's age of ubiquitous instant communication? What benefit do you provide to making my interests known to CCP? I am with Nova Knife on getting the CPM to be able to self police on people doing work and the sorts instead of getting free rides in the group. For structure, I would like to bring up the ambassador topic up, and maybe set up regular meetings with the CSM as well to at least exchange glances or ask each other questions. The only thing I would like the ambassador to do is to be flown to the other group's meeting with the devs. This would make appointing a chairman and secretary and or whatever other seat needed on the council less stressful on the few who may only be good enough to just be a CPM and can't get that little bit more. After all its one universe two countries. I would like to see a reasonable number of representatives, I do not think we need 14 members yet but 5 seems too few, maybe 7 should be enough coverage for a while with a few more on standby. As for voting I have to see what CCP is capable of providing or tracking to determine who gets to vote or not. Just right now I cannot formulate anything fair at the moment but after observing the current eve online election I am not going with that system at all. Why do you assume the customers need a body like the CSM between themselves and the company? What benefit does a democratic representative provide that a direct line of communication could not? In other words, why are you envisioning the CPM would be anything like the CSM at all? Because of human nature. Looking at real world elections and the virtual ones its quite common that undeserving people get elected all the time. As for the CSM I am concerned about eve customers and dust 514 customers, I dont want things to kill either game because of the ohter game. You miss the question. Why is there a need for electing people? Why is there no consideration of a system to promote ideas on an individual basis. After all, just because a person has some good ideas does not mean they are all good.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 917	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:40:00 - [62] - Quote Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2081	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:43:00 - [63] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Why do you assume the customers need a body like the CSM between themselves and the company? What benefit does a democratic representative provide that a direct line of communication could not? In other words, why are you envisioning the CPM would be anything like the CSM at all? To answer to Iron Wolf, I would say that given what I have seen from the CSM during the past 7 years that I have been playing Eve Online, I would say that having a representative voice allows the players a means of putting pressure on the company or at least nudge it in a direction in which both players and the company can agree on. It may seem like a PR stunt, but overall it's for the best of the players to have a voice because so far a lot of us are not feeling like we made any impact at all on the development progress of Dust even with the level of communication we have now. Having a CPM will provide that one extra "oomph" the player base needs to make a difference. There is an old saying in the Eve Online CSM elections... "No Votes Nerf Boats"
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:44:00 - [64] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3608	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:45:00 - [65] - Quote Sorry for missing the question. I do that on purpose. CPM isn't about ideas, its a tuning fork. Ideas are heard all the time, CCP has hundreds of them as well and its going to be the This and all future CPMs job to help sort which ideas would be viable or not to implement and importance of higher level ideas that need to be implemented. Its less about what you want the CPM to do and more what you want CCP to do.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2081	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:46:00 - [66] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them. That's what having multiple members in the council is for. Each member acts as a check and balance against the other member.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:50:00 - [67] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sorry for missing the question. I do that on purpose. CPM isn't about ideas, its a tuning fork. Ideas are heard all the time, CCP has hundreds of them as well and its going to be the This and all future CPMs job to help sort which ideas would be viable or not to implement and importance of higher level ideas that need to be implemented. Its less about what you want the CPM to do and more what you want CCP to do. So again, I ask, why is one person, be it you, or me, or anybody, representing the playerbase at large, a good system for helping develop a shooter? Moreover, why is it the most effective?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:52:00 - [68] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them. That's what having multiple members in the council is for. Each member acts as a check and balance against the other member. It's a system we've seen fail EVE. It takes a rare combination of ego and humility to drive the group while being open to outside influences. I don't have that kind of faith in humanity to consistently elect such a person and therefore am inclined to suggest we consider a different system entirely.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3610	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:53:00 - [69] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sorry for missing the question. I do that on purpose. CPM isn't about ideas, its a tuning fork. Ideas are heard all the time, CCP has hundreds of them as well and its going to be the This and all future CPMs job to help sort which ideas would be viable or not to implement and importance of higher level ideas that need to be implemented. Its less about what you want the CPM to do and more what you want CCP to do. So again, I ask, why is one person, be it you, or me, or anybody, representing the playerbase at large, a good system for helping develop a shooter? Moreover, why is it the most effective? Scenario: Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. A man trained in CPR rushes in orders one person, and ONLY one person to go call 911. A call is made. Man is saved. vs Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. Someone in the crowd suggest we should try to call for help. Nobody does anthing. Nobody calls. Man dies.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 917	Posted - 2013.04.21 22:55:00 - [70] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them. I agree with your points, but there's no better alternative

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:00:00 - [71] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sorry for missing the question. I do that on purpose. CPM isn't about ideas, its a tuning fork. Ideas are heard all the time, CCP has hundreds of them as well and its going to be the This and all future CPMs job to help sort which ideas would be viable or not to implement and importance of higher level ideas that need to be implemented. Its less about what you want the CPM to do and more what you want CCP to do. So again, I ask, why is one person, be it you, or me, or anybody, representing the playerbase at large, a good system for helping develop a shooter? Moreover, why is it the most effective? Scenario: Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. A man trained in CPR rushes in orders one person, and ONLY one person to go call 911. A call is made. Man is saved. vs Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. Someone in the crowd suggest we should try to call for help. Nobody does anthing. Nobody calls. Man dies. Again, missing the point. You want the 7 people to make the calls for potentially millions. That's impossible. Just look at how dandy a job the US does at those ratios. We need a system for getting good ideas disseminated, discussed, and then refined at which point CCP knows exactly what the community wants on a point by point. I will flat out say I hate democracy because it is tyranny of the majority. I am open about my bias. Now how do you plan to address my concerns?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:01:00 - [72] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc. It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place. IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of? I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them. I agree with your points, but there's no better alternative That's not true. Perhaps you are operating under some faulty assumptions and thus ruling out alternative solutions?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3610	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:04:00 - [73] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Scenario: Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. A man trained in CPR rushes in orders one person, and ONLY one person to go call 911. A call is made. Man is saved. vs Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. Someone in the crowd suggest we should try to call for help. Nobody does anthing. Nobody calls. Man dies. Again, missing the point. You want the 7 people to make the calls for potentially millions. That's impossible. Just look at how dandy a job the US does at those ratios. We need a system for getting good ideas disseminated, discussed, and then refined at which point CCP knows exactly what the community wants on a point by point. I will flat out say I hate democracy because it is tyranny of the majority. I am open about my bias. Now how do you plan to address my concerns? Actually it is the point. Because no matter how large that crowd they're still going to stand around the guy who fell from two floors up.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:09:00 - [74] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Scenario: Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. A man trained in CPR rushes in orders one person, and ONLY one person to go call 911. A call is made. Man is saved. vs Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. Someone in the crowd suggest we should try to call for help. Nobody does anthing. Nobody calls. Man dies. Again, missing the point. You want the 7 people to make the calls for potentially millions. That's impossible. Just look at how dandy a job the US does at those ratios. We need a system for getting good ideas disseminated, discussed, and then refined at which point CCP knows exactly what the community wants on a point by point. I will flat out say I hate democracy because it is tyranny of the majority. I am open about my bias. Now how do you plan to address my concerns? Actually it is the point. Because no matter how large that crowd they're still going to stand around the guy who fell from two floors up. But you are suggesting we make that guy who performed CPR the designated doctor. Just because he knows CPR and is competent enough to save lives with it under an emergency doesn't mean you ask them to perform surgery. Even with this stretched analogy, we are talking about two different beasts.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3611	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:12:00 - [75] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: But you are suggesting we make that guy who performed CPR the designated doctor. Just because he knows CPR and is competent enough to save lives with it under an emergency doesn't mean you ask them to perform surgery. Even with this stretched analogy, we are talking about two different beasts. No, not at all let me ask you this how many doctors for one man is considerably a massive waste of resources? 100? 200? 4000?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:14:00 - [76] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: But you are suggesting we make that guy who performed CPR the designated doctor. Just because he knows CPR and is competent enough to save lives with it under an emergency doesn't mean you ask them to perform surgery. Even with this stretched analogy, we are talking about two different beasts. No, not at all let me ask you this how many doctors for one man is considerably a massive waste of resources? 100? 200? 4000? It's not a fixed number. Some problems can be solved by a boy scout, some require a team of specialists and all their support staff. I think it is unreasonable to break something as broad and deep as an FPSMMO into a fixed opinion base for any length of time.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3611	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:16:00 - [77] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: But you are suggesting we make that guy who performed CPR the designated doctor. Just because he knows CPR and is competent enough to save lives with it under an emergency doesn't mean you ask them to perform surgery. Even with this stretched analogy, we are talking about two different beasts. No, not at all let me ask you this how many doctors for one man is considerably a massive waste of resources? 100? 200? 4000? It's not a fixed number. Some problems can be solved by a boy scout, some require a team of specialists and all their support staff. I think it is unreasonable to break something as broad and deep as an FPSMMO into a fixed opinion base for any length of time. So admit desires to see a term limitation?
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:20:00 - [78] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: But you are suggesting we make that guy who performed CPR the designated doctor. Just because he knows CPR and is competent enough to save lives with it under an emergency doesn't mean you ask them to perform surgery. Even with this stretched analogy, we are talking about two different beasts. No, not at all let me ask you this how many doctors for one man is considerably a massive waste of resources? 100? 200? 4000? It's not a fixed number. Some problems can be solved by a boy scout, some require a team of specialists and all their support staff. I think it is unreasonable to break something as broad and deep as an FPSMMO into a fixed opinion base for any length of time. So admit desires to see a term limitation? Term limits solve nothing, you just end up with legacies instead. I am asking you to open your mind up to abandoning the entire concept of a fixed seat. We live in an age when anyone, anywhere, can contribute in real time to a discussion. You also have the stick situation of balancing free players vs non-paying members that eve never had to deal with. I am just trying to point out anyone who believes the only options are elections and appointments for a fixed number of seats are being vary narrow minded.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 738	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:24:00 - [79] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sorry for missing the question. I do that on purpose. CPM isn't about ideas, its a tuning fork. Ideas are heard all the time, CCP has hundreds of them as well and its going to be the This and all future CPMs job to help sort which ideas would be viable or not to implement and importance of higher level ideas that need to be implemented. Its less about what you want the CPM to do and more what you want CCP to do. So again, I ask, why is one person, be it you, or me, or anybody, representing the playerbase at large, a good system for helping develop a shooter? Moreover, why is it the most effective? Scenario: Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. A man trained in CPR rushes in orders one person, and ONLY one person to go call 911. A call is made. Man is saved. vs Man falls of second floor and is unconcious, a crowd forms up but none of them do something. Someone in the crowd suggest we should try to call for help. Nobody does anthing. Nobody calls. Man dies. Again, missing the point. You want the 7 people to make the calls for potentially millions. That's impossible. Just look at how dandy a job the US does at those ratios. We need a system for getting good ideas disseminated, discussed, and then refined at which point CCP knows exactly what the community wants on a point by point. I will flat out say I hate democracy because it is tyranny of the majority. I am open about my bias. Now how do you plan to address my concerns? The community does not ever want one consistent thing without contradictions. Democracy is rarely if ever a tyranny of the majority in practice. Democracy isn't even strictly democracy in practice. The bigger question is how to gauge and even begin to get a sense of the many wants of the silent majority? A group of workers at a large Caldari factory facility conspire to take justice into their own hands. One of the bosses has so heinously abused his position of power that we cannot detail his many heinous and inhumane acts on this forum. The workers are eventually able to lure him to a vacant second floor office where he is pushed out of a window. The fall is not fatal but many more vigilante workers gather on the ground below to make sure the job is well and truly finished and to ensure that they can finally be free of this monstrous overseer. Unfortunately an employee from middle management who remains blissfully ignorant of the boss's abuse of the workers passes by on his lunch break. He sees a person in pain, surrounded by a seemingly inert crowd of onlookers. "For the love of Heth, someone help this man!" He cries. A ripple of panic surges through the crowd. Someone, we will never be sure of their exact identity, rushes to contact emergency services. A call is made. Man is saved.
Icy Tiger Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 1204	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:24:00 - [80] - Quote Noc... I think the point of the CPM is to condense the ideas of a thousand opinions into smaller ideas.

WE LOVE ReGnUM Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:27:00 - [81] - Quote Honestly, CPM should have been voted. It would of at least added some legitimacy. Hand picked councils has never sat well with me.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3613	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:27:00 - [82] - Quote Well if Noc wants robots to run the CPM he can go vote for one.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:28:00 - [83] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Noc... I think the point of the CPM is to condense the ideas of a thousand opinions into smaller ideas. We are condensing those ideas into people and seats of power. There are other ways to filter ideas, which is the ultimate goal.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:30:00 - [84] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well if Noc wants robots to run the CPM he can go vote for one. So you are on record as dismissing anything besides a continuation of the system that has gifted you power over your peers? Noted.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 738	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:31:00 - [85] - Quote WE LOVE ReGnUM wrote: Honestly, CPM should have been voted. It would of at least added some legitimacy. Hand picked councils has never sat well with me. Yes, let's do that. Since we can all create as many PSN accounts as we have email addresses, it should turn out about as well as the campaign to "Dub the Dew!" I vote for Diabeetus.
Lasarte Ioni Noob Gaming 87	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:32:00 - [86] - Quote ReGnUM Slayer ofWorlds wrote: No respect for someone who has more likes on the forums then kills in the game WE LOVE ReGnUM wrote: Honestly, CPM should have been voted. It would of at least added some legitimacy. Hand picked councils has never sat well with me. Good points, but we want to see ReGnUM Public Relations official statement on this matter
WE LOVE ReGnUM Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:34:00 - [87] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well if Noc wants robots to run the CPM he can go vote for one. So you are on record as dismissing anything besides a continuation of the system that has gifted you power over your peers? Noted. Hey Noc is it not funny how fast power gets to somebody's head.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3613	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:37:00 - [88] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well if Noc wants robots to run the CPM he can go vote for one. So you are on record as dismissing anything besides a continuation of the system that has gifted you power over your peers? Noted. No I am on the record to regard your statements as unhelpful and poisonous to the community and I have further proven that no matter what I have answered your quest of ruination. You would have contorted and twisted to your own ruined version of the community because honestly your opinion of the entire community has been extraordinarily removed for the last few months because of a mostly ignored personal crusade you been championing for to well... unhelpful ends. Whole reason why I decided to play the game a bit to string you out further. Branded. BTW if you weren't so blind in contempt you'd know that my seating is by no means permanent.
WE LOVE ReGnUM Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:39:00 - [89] - Quote Aighun wrote: WE LOVE ReGnUM wrote: Honestly, CPM should have been voted. It would of at least added some legitimacy. Hand picked councils has never sat well with me. Yes, let's do that. Since we can all create as many PSN accounts as we have email addresses, it should turn out about as well as the campaign to "Dub the Dew!" I vote for Diabeetus. Obviously not. Nonetheless, this council really holds no legitimacy. About half the council members hardly ever play. Furthermore, Ironwolfs self-induced smugness only further confirms my doubts.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1305	Posted - 2013.04.21 23:45:00 - [90] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well if Noc wants robots to run the CPM he can go vote for one. So you are on record as dismissing anything besides a continuation of the system that has gifted you power over your peers? Noted. No I am on the record to regard your statements as unhelpful and poisonous to the community and I have further proven that no matter what I have answered your quest of ruination. You would have contorted and twisted to your own ruined version of the community because honestly your opinion of the entire community has been extraordinarily removed for the last few months because of a mostly ignored personal crusade you been championing for to well... unhelpful ends. Whole reason why I decided to play the game a bit to string you out further. Branded. BTW if you weren't so blind in contempt you'd know that my seating is by no means permanent. You vilify my genuine concern. And then you filter it out. And then you accuse me of being against the community for DARING to question CCP? You were one of my preferred candidates and now you have me extremely worried.



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