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Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2081
   |
Posted - 2013.04.21 22:43:00 -
[1] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:
Why do you assume the customers need a body like the CSM between themselves and the company? What benefit does a democratic representative provide that a direct line of communication could not?
In other words, why are you envisioning the CPM would be anything like the CSM at all?
To answer to Iron Wolf, I would say that given what I have seen from the CSM during the past 7 years that I have been playing Eve Online, I would say that having a representative voice allows the players a means of putting pressure on the company or at least nudge it in a direction in which both players and the company can agree on.
It may seem like a PR stunt, but overall it's for the best of the players to have a voice because so far a lot of us are not feeling like we made any impact at all on the development progress of Dust even with the level of communication we have now. Having a CPM will provide that one extra "oomph" the player base needs to make a difference.
There is an old saying in the Eve Online CSM elections...
"No Votes Nerf Boats" |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2081
|
Posted - 2013.04.21 22:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:Because CCP want the CPM and the CSM. It does improve communication Noc.
It's been seen time and time again, the issue is getting the right people on the CPM in the first place.
IronWolf, Can you get a thread set up and pinned to discuss the topic of the vote etc that all the CPM keep on top of?
I don't want to have this conversation in this thread and Novas, seems pointless. The issue is you are consolidating what should be open feedback into a seat of power, for all intents of purposes. Democracy does not play kindly with this situation (popularity contests), nor does appointment (favoritism). Since CCP is doing something entirely new, it would be nice if we built off of these lessons instead of repeat them.
That's what having multiple members in the council is for. Each member acts as a check and balance against the other member. |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2081
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
@Noc
You asked why we needed an elected few to convey our views. Your question was answered. It may not have been the answer you were looking for, but it was an answer none the less.
If you don't like the idea of an elected council, then that's ok. No one is forcing you to accept it. You can choose to not vote at all nor participate in the system. You can do what I do and just post on the forums ideas and suggestions that can help others in the crowd source.
However, I still back Iron Wolf and the rest of the council by virtue of the fact that we have a game to help improve. You, me, the council, and the rest of the community have to work together to help streamline development with CCP. End of story. |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2082
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Well then, to that definition and to your earlier question combined.
I know whatever hell system I help come up with, is going to be abused no matter what by future CPM. I will purposely look for flaws in systems when they're presented and bring them to light. After all i love tearing things apart. None the less it won't be perfect, it will never be perfect, and no matter what I do, it cannot be perfect.
All I can hope for is to move the entire process to a more prefect representation, to make it known perfection will always be out of reach.
I know the above statement sounds like alot of BS, but honestly until I get more information from CCP I have no idea how to make a good voter system without it. But you are saying you are strongly predisposed to a system that is fundamentally a representative democracy? That is the foundation that you moor your opinion on? A lottery system cant work most of the lottery results will be a negative as most people wont have passports or other minimal requirements. A heir system wouldn't be useful either it would lead to too many ass kissers. Communism ( I guess current system) would be great but as you can see with Regnum many many others they're going to continue to feel disenfranchised because the people who got picked are CCP kissers. Autocracity wouldn't work either you'd have to many ego heads. Democracy or a Republic are the only options I see feasible in giving you guys a voice, the ability to get rid of useless people, and ensure quality of CPM members that do get seated.
Crowd sourcing as pointed out by Noc is a viable solution as well. But it's not perfect either because what they gain in shared public knowledge and ideas, they lose out in time spent trying to resolve things. This loss of time will be detrimental to the development of a console or PC game. |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2082
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
@Noc
In that case, we'll just have to see how things go with the current CPM we have now. After all, their job is to help CCP figure out how to establish a proper structure of the council and election system considering that this is a game that is free to download and free to play in which anyone with infinite emails can create infinite accounts and potentially manipulate the voting system without spending a single penny on the game.
That said, the current structure and voting system in Eve Online is just not going to work and CCP already recognizes that. If they had intentions of copying the CSM structure for the CPM, they would have done it already. But the fact that CCP is needing players to come up with a better solution is indicative that typical voting and representation has problems for the Dust community as a whole. |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2082
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 00:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I have to say that crowd-sourced as the CPM would be a bad idea overall due to the nature of CPMs requirement to know things on business level involving CCP, stuff that rival companies could steal and take advantage of especially if they have larger development teams. Discussions with Hans has proven that much so far and crowd-sourcing would lead to too many leaks.
I forgot about this.
Considering that CCP's key rivals in the MMO industry is Blizzard and BioWare and its rivals in the FPS industry will be EA and many others, this will play an important factor as trust is key to the development of a game. Remember, CCP will be sharing information with the members that is considered confidential and therefore we have to make sure that the members are morally sound in the minds in respecting that trust. |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2082
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 01:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
@Iron Wolf
Surprisingly, I never heard about that. What happened? |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2083
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 01:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:@Iron Wolf
Surprisingly, I never heard about that. What happened? Okay the story is a bit old but here goes. back when CCP was first starting and recently lost their publisher they where looking for another publisher to take eve online up. EA and Activision both scoffed at the idea and graphics at the time saying they where crazy, and impossible and single shard servers where going to be impossible all sorts of things. I believe this was the trailer shown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJZnXfvKNoEnter world of warcraft, until this game came out MMO where something everyone in the industry disregarded for trueblood nerds only. World of Warcraft was nearly an instant hit. EA saw this and got real jealous. The simple fact that Eve was going on ahead without them was scrambling to find a foot into the market. Observe Westwood studios, the developer of Earth and Beyond who had a pretty ambitious space game. EA bought Westwood studios for EnB (contrary to the belief they where bought for CnC) Within a year EnB was declared dead. Eve online seeing a mass exodus from that game pounced on the opportunity to offer every EnB player a discount for swapping over. EA never forgave CCP for that insult. Currently EA is working on a game that has 'persistent progress' where if you where to start a game there today they would copy your progress from other games and 'instant vet' you.
Typical of EA. I hated them the moment they became so caught up with money they completely became drunk with power. I remember when Plants vs Zombies was such a success that EA felt really insulted so they managed to buy out the developer and shut them down (or at least downsizing the company). |
Maken Tosch
OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT
2085
|
Posted - 2013.04.22 01:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
@Iron wolf
It looks like they are about to get shut down considering the cuts they're making. |
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