I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level.

If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level.

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

You argue for fairness, yet you want CCP to give you and a few other players free stuff you don't deserve. Interesting, I guess some players are more equal than others.

And FYI, the optional reset for refund proposal is the fairest deal in the table - for EVERYONE.

description treats "resets" and "commercial release" as two separate things

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

No it's not, not at all. I've generally respected your thoughts, but this is utter rubbish.

Because we expect what we paid for we should be punished by having our SP reset? This will result in a lawsuit just as quickly as denying the return of the AURUM itself. I hate all the QQ, I refuse to grind SP again,, crap that has been tossed around because what happened? Now there won't be a reset on commercial release, when that is exactly what is needed here.

Somehow you and all the people like you are trying to make honest customers (that expect the same honesty from CCP) the bad guys. CCP needs to reset everyone or no one. My preference is clear, but I'm not running around the forums QQ'ing that I won't play if they reset everybody's SP (like many, many people did).

Edit: The catastrophic clause? I think it's time to consider implementing it.

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

I am rather serious about this, the terms of sale never included getting two (or however many you'd like since the number does for all intents and purposes simply does not exist) for the price of one purchase, it included a statement of insurance of purchase in the event of something catastrophic or intentional.

As I have stated before to sum up the entire scenario if you replace the Merc pack items with a golden AR, come commercial reset do you get a second Golden Gun or do you receive the same gun to replace the first one you had? Terms of Sale indicates the later not the former.

Also I said for those who want it. This gives the option for the consumer to keep what they have now or clean slate and be given everything back. Now is the opportune time to do so however before exploitative such as using corp armory is made available.

Thus resetting the character WILL honor the clause.

Thus resetting the character WILL honor the clause.

You argue for fairness, yet you want CCP to give you and a few other players free stuff you don't deserve. Interesting, I guess some players are more equal than others.

And FYI, the optional reset for refund proposal is the fairest deal in the table - for EVERYONE.

Ryder is right

Its the minority which want the AUR reset

If you want AUR reset then reset everything for that person

If they make it an option i wont mind, i will be in the majority which will keep what they have so far and not get an AUR refund

Arguably. Would a court rule in favor of CCP if they took that approach? Nope, as they would be resetting the SP of only the people that bought the merc packs and asked for what they paid for. It would be viewed as punishing the consumer for daring to expect what they paid for.

Further, as stated, it is in no way a FAIR option as you attempted to argue. What needs to happen is that everyone should be reset but people would QQ and go play Mario Kart instead of DUST (or at least threaten to). This is not a viable option, and your arguing for it has lost a good deal of respect from me (not that I expect you to care).

CCP screwed the pooch and now the players are at each others throats. Typical. I even try to s[peak in terms of compromise and your stance is reset anyone foolish enough to expect what they paid for. I hate the entire legal process, but I would gladly spend my off hours in court if this is the 'solution'. I'm tired of corporations screwing over their paying customers and if CCP takes this approach that is exactly what they are doing.

It doesn't matter if it is a minority or a majority. CCP either is, or is not, contractually obligated by the terms of the purchase agreement. The reason they haven't stepped up and cleared this whole mess up is because they are most likely working out the legal ramifications of options such as this, realize how it won't hold up in court to do so, and are trying to find a compromise (a clearly difficult task as all the forum warrior'ing shows).

Arguably. Would a court rule in favor of CCP if they took that approach? Nope, as they would be resetting the SP of only the people that bought the merc packs and asked for what they paid for. It would be viewed as punishing the consumer for daring to expect what they paid for.

Further, as stated, it is in no way a FAIR option as you attempted to argue. What needs to happen is that everyone should be reset but people would QQ and go play Mario Kart instead of DUST (or at least threaten to). This is not a viable option, and your arguing for it has lost a good deal of respect from me (not that I expect you to care).

CCP screwed the pooch and now the players are at each others throats. Typical. I even try to s[peak in terms of compromise and your stance is reset anyone foolish enough to expect what they paid for. I hate the entire legal process, but I would gladly spend my off hours in court if this is the 'solution'. I'm tired of corporations screwing over their paying customers and if CCP takes this approach that is exactly what they are doing.

Firstly you have questionable legal grounds at best for demanding a refund, gotta love that EULA (you signed away your consumer rights with regards to in game items and currency - in case you forgot to read the legally binding document before signing it ). Secondly, even if CCP is legally obligated to give you your stuff back, they still have the legal right to destroy your existing stuff first, again, gotta love that EULA.

CCP agreed to a purchase agreement that stated the merc pack would be refunded upon commercial release.. However, yes, they could delete anyone's character,.

EULAs attempt to argue you have no rights to any of the 'virtual' property, but plenty of EULA's have had clauses proven unenforceable and voidable in court. The entire virtual property concept is relatively new and its legal implications are still being determined. Would it hold up in court? The at times obnoxious thing about the legal system in many places today is that i the end result is not always what it could or should logically be, especially when dealing with such novel concepts as virtual property with real world value.

Regardless, the damage CCP would do to their image as a corporation that can be trusted and deserve to be supported would not be insignificant if they took the approach you suggest. They would be walking the same path as EA, now synonomous with bad customer service, horrible incomplete games, and screwing over their customer base.

Unlike EA, CCP has a solid reputation that they should and likely will seek to maintain. Deleting characters of paying customers simply for expecting what they paid for would do as much, if not more damage, than any court case. I'm not even sure why I'm arguing these points in the forums except CCP has shown they can sometimes consider all the QQ in these forums far too much and if more sane, less idiotic viewpoints aren't offered then all CCP sees is the idiocy many spew herein.

You argue for fairness, yet you want CCP to give you and a few other players free stuff you don't deserve. Interesting, I guess some players are more equal than others.

And FYI, the optional reset for refund proposal is the fairest deal in the table - for EVERYONE.

Putting any legal stuff aside for now, you seem to have conveniently skipped over the part where you you have no Moral right to demand a second, free, merc pack. Basically YOU HAVE ALREADY GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR - YOU PAID FOR A MERC PACK (or whatever) AND YOU GOT A MERC PACK, UNLESS CCP DOES SOMETHING TO REMOVE SAID MERC PACK, YOU SHOULD NOT GET ANOTHER. Caps lock used in an attempt to make it sink in, but alas, some people are simply immune to logic.

[quote=Ryder Azorria][quote=JL3Eleven]

I bought a Merc Pack under the specific agreement that I would get all that stuff back at Commercial Release. That's WHAT WE PAID FOR.

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

With the assumption that there would be a reset at Commercial Release.

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

Agreed with the OP. The 'refund clause' in the merc pack was included to assure players that their purchase would be safe in the event of a reset including the one originally planned for commercial release.
Then CCP decided to give the playerbase a big gift and declared that no SP would be reset on release day.

In my way of thinking, CCP's decision to let us keep our SP was a nice action that I will respond to with gratitude and happily release them from their agreement to refund the merc pack upon launch.

For those people who want CCP to refund their merc packs, I will say that you purchased that merc pack at a time when a launch day reset was expected. If you expect CCP to refund your merc pack, then you should also accept the character reset which the 'refund clause' was intended to PROTECT YOU against.

How about this? Why not turn around the idea laid out in the original post. Upon release, have players opt in to waive their refund in return for avoiding a character reset. This way CCP is honoring their original agreement by default but allowing people to keep their characters if they agree to a modified terms of service.

If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level.

don't care about level I care about double dipping, If this really is about keeping CCP honest or consumer rights then you would accept the refund with reset. if its about anything else.......

No, that is not what I meant. Did you even read my OP in detail? There was no mention anywhere in the merc pack that CCP would originally reset your SP in the event of commercial release. Commercial release and reset are two separate things that are mutually exclusive as worded by the merc pack during closed beta.

Don't twist my words. Where are people getting this idea that a reset was intended for commercial release?

No, that is not what I meant. Did you even read my OP in detail? There was no mention anywhere in the merc pack that CCP would originally reset your SP in the event of commercial release. Commercial release and reset are two separate things that are mutually exclusive as worded by the merc pack during closed beta.

Don't twist my words. Where are people getting this idea that a reset was intended for commercial release?

Just cuz?

Seriously, why would we want to get unfairly reset just to receive the stuff we bought? I don't understand your "logic". Will this be your position on any offer CCP puts up that you think is "unfair".

"Sure, you can buy an Armored Pack, but you only get half the tanks unless you take a reset. Which isn't mentioned until after you buy it." wouldn't want to be "unfair" or "double dip" amirite?

Putting any legal stuff aside for now, you seem to have conveniently skipped over the part where you you have no Moral right to demand a second, free, merc pack. Basically YOU HAVE ALREADY GOT WHAT YOU PAID FOR - YOU PAID FOR A MERC PACK (or whatever) AND YOU GOT A MERC PACK, UNLESS CCP DOES SOMETHING TO REMOVE SAID MERC PACK, YOU SHOULD NOT GET ANOTHER. Caps lock used in an attempt to make it sink in, but alas, some people are simply immune to logic.

I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair.

I don't think they should have a full SP reset, they should just lose all SP gained through boosters.

What's the real problem with just honoring the merc pack and giving those who bought them and supported this game with real money. The terms of the agreement?

Everyone wants to punish those who purchased merc packs by resetting only those characters, when in reality they just took advantage of sale, that you get to use twice?

So what if they get extra boosters, they took advantage of a sale.

Maybe everyone would be happy if for one week they offered merc pacs for sale that would also be refunded at commercial release. Allowing everyone to get in on the deal. Announce it for a month so people can save up then everyone you purchase for that time frame is essentially doubled like the original ones.

Everyone wins and ccp makes money. Basically a two for one sale.

Honestly, I have no problem with CCP giving out free merc packs to those who were fortunate to purchase one early on the game. However if this comes at the cost of a mandatory character reset for everyone on launch day, then I would very much like to see some other sort of solution be proposed so as to prevent this. My arguments are not based on any malice towards those who expect CCP to re-issue the merc pack.
I've just realized that I have been rather swept away by all this forum rage without actually seeing any source material from CCP. How much of this debate is based upon speculation and how much is based upon actual comments made from CCP employees?
If we are all just shouting in the dark at each other, perhaps it would be a better usage of time to request clarification from CCP and give them time to formulate a sane response.

oh god now youve done it brought morality and ethics into it, but it is a good point, it is ethically unsound far more so then CCP not refunding the packs on release, in fact one could say it would be more unethical for CCP to refund the packs then to not, as they would be giving a advantage to closed beta testers over open beta testers.

Why are you guys making this hard for yourselves?

Just wait for the decision CCP may eventually make - i.e. this heap of crap may never get out of beta.

If they do make one and you don't think it is accordance with the T&Cs then just do a credit card charge back.

No need for elaborate plans or choices.

As far as logic goes, try sitting on the ground and observing the sun and how the earth moves in relation to it. Your observations would make it appear the sun is moving around the earth, not the other way around. It's called a logical fallacy, much like your so-called logic here, except I'll call it what it really is, logic fail. But you are right, though. Some people are indeed immume to logic and common sense. Thanks for proving both.

P.S.

Yeah, the troll in me came back and had to respond. Meh.

The fact that some of you actually believe consumers have no moral right to what they paid for is unbelievable. We paid for a merc pack that would be refunded on every reset AND commercial release. Simple. But clearly you don't get that.

I'm no longer going to try to convince you how wrong you are. Your view of reality is clearly far too gone for any words to change it. Again, CCP screwed up here, but that's not the fault of the players who bought the packs. This CCP White Knight Syndrome is ridiculous. You're beginning to sound like fanatics (the root word of fan interestingly).

Many of you appear to believe that the original terms were understood to include a reset upon commercial release even though the original terms made no such mention. This understanding appears to be community-fostered and so far I don't see anyone posting from CCP with an official declaration of such a thing. Therefore this understanding will have to be regarded as just another assumption.

These terms?

http://www.dust411.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MercPackTerms.jpg

I'm pretty sure that states pretty clearly that the Merc Pack contents will be credited back on commercial release. It doesn't state they'll be credited back exactly as they are in their current state, but that CCP can "substitute items of similar value" if they choose.

As always though, waiting on official word from CCP...

I was referring to the kind of reset that results in your character getting set back to zero. The credit of the merc pack contents (or equivalent thereof) is something I already know about.

That has the full terms which actually imply the exact opposite of a reset at release. The terms "character reset" and "commercial release" are listed separately as conditions for the same thing, making it obvious that there isn't a correlation between the two.

It comes down to- is time worth more or a nominal amount of money?

In my mind, time is infinitely more valuable.

Keep the SP.

Or will limited run tanks do as an alternative?

If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level.

Wrong ! This isnt about being leveled ! This is about a bunch of ppl wanting to expliit something and boring most players that arent interested in such petty attempt to grab back money. This aint a ccp wish.

So. If you want your money back then deal with being resetted while the rest of us stay as they are. And then grow up.

Ccp can certainly set a page to which you log in with your psn account and then click "yes me wants money back" after agreeing with dome conditions. Sets DB then use DT to reset ppl registered.

And i m pretty sure NONE of those asking for that refund would actually do it if they re alone to be resetted.