DUST Search - [Recommendation] - Make Refunds an Option, Not Mandatory

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Maken Tosch wrote:

Many of you appear to believe that the original terms were understood to include a reset upon commercial release even though the original terms made no such mention. This understanding appears to be community-fostered and so far I don't see anyone posting from CCP with an official declaration of such a thing. Therefore this understanding will have to be regarded as just another assumption.

These terms?

http://www.dust411.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MercPackTerms.jpg

I'm pretty sure that states pretty clearly that the Merc Pack contents will be credited back on commercial release. It doesn't state they'll be credited back exactly as they are in their current state, but that CCP can "substitute items of similar value" if they choose.

As always though, waiting on official word from CCP...

I was referring to the kind of reset that results in your character getting set back to zero. The credit of the merc pack contents (or equivalent thereof) is something I already know about.

That has the full terms which actually imply the exact opposite of a reset at release. The terms "character reset" and "commercial release" are listed separately as conditions for the same thing, making it obvious that there isn't a correlation between the two.


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Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1992	Posted - 2013.04.15 15:20:00 - [1] - Quote Given how often we have had this debate, and after careful thinking this over for the past week or so, I think it is best to give players the option to have a refund via an in-game message box on day of release. None of the SP is reset regardless of choice and those who just feel like contributing to Dust's development (like me) will probably elect to reject the refund while those who want the "commercial release" obligation to be met will get what they paid for. This option should only effect merc packs purchased before open beta and possibly from Gamestop assuming CCP can track those kind of transactions separately. My statement is based on the literal interpretation of the merc pack description as written before open beta came along and the fact that the wording of said description treats "resets" and "commercial release" as two separate things. Nowhere in the description did/does it mention that commercial release will include a reset on that same day. CCP has also clearly stated that there are no more resets coming barring anything catastrophic. For those claiming that giving a refund while keeping the SP and stuff is catastrophic, the people making such claims don't have the metrics (data accessible only to CCP devs) to back it up and only CCP can make the final decision on that matter. Although a full reset is out of the question, I want to make it clear that CCP has left the door open for the possibility of a partial reset (or SP cut) for those who acquired SP via boosters. However, keep in mind that this claim is coming only from the players and that CCP made no mention of such a thing happening either. In fact, CCP has been quiet about the whole thing for the past 4 months straight. EDIT: Reminder: I sent an email to CCP earlier letting them know that Gamestop is selling the merc packs with the outdated description that includes the "commercial release" clause. CCP said they are trying to address this. Since it's against forum rules to post a copy of the email here, you only have my word on this.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1992	Posted - 2013.04.15 15:25:00 - [2] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I say reset the characters that want the 're-issue' of the item. Its the only true way to be fair. Only when the data CCP has says they should.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1992	Posted - 2013.04.15 15:30:00 - [3] - Quote JL3Eleven wrote: If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level. If you are talking about a full reset, read my OP again. CCP said that full resets are out of the question barring anything catastrophic. If you are talking about a partial reset, that is still possible but highly unlikely given that CCP didn't mention that possibility. At least not directly.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1992	Posted - 2013.04.15 15:35:00 - [4] - Quote Ryder Azorria wrote: JL3Eleven wrote: If you wipe one single person wipe everyone. Wanna be level then set the bar level. You argue for fairness, yet you want CCP to give you and a few other players free stuff you don't deserve. Interesting, I guess some players are more equal than others. And FYI, the optional reset for refund proposal is the fairest deal in the table - for EVERYONE. Please keep flaming to a minimum. I don't want this thread to go out of control and I don't want to be forced to ask CCP to lock this thread.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1992	Posted - 2013.04.15 15:45:00 - [5] - Quote I just want to make this clear to anyone who missed it. Maken Tosch wrote: description treats "resets" and "commercial release" as two separate things I'm not claiming to be an internet lawyer here as that is just silly. But this is just common sense I'm pointing out here because it seems people here keep thinking that a reset will happen if the commercial release obligation is met.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1994	Posted - 2013.04.16 00:18:00 - [6] - Quote My god. I leave this thread alone for just half a day and this is what I see when I get back? I thought I told all of you folks to keep your flames to a minimum. This thread was a recommendation on what CCP should do in regards to this issue. My recommendation was not in any way shape or form based on biased speculation. It is directly based on the literal interpretations of the merc pack descriptions in question. I am one of those players who don't care about receiving anything in return, but I am also the kind of person who doesn't want to infringe on the rights of other players as consumers. That said, I want to make it absolutely clear to everyone here that nowhere in the description did it state that a reset must occur on refunding for commercial release. The reset part of CCP's obligation has already been satisfied on multiple occasions. All that remains to be met is the commercial release part. CCP had already made it clear that we are not in commercial release and they have retracted any statement about May 6 being the commercial release as well. At least they said not yet. Also, it is not fair to hold a buyer's earnings (in this case their SP) hostage because the customer did not agree to such a term and CCP had already made it clear there will be no such resets in a way that brings them back to being a brand new character. Again, the merc pack description mentions no such thing for commercial release. Again, I'm ok with not getting a refund and CCP go ahead and put a note on their bulletin board saying "Maken doesn't want a refund" for all I care. But I do care about the rights of others as consumers who have been given a certain level of expectation by CCP to not have their SP completely reset in addition to getting the final refund for commercial release. This is not me being greedy. This is me defending the rights of others. I thought about this carefully for the past week or so and this is the only logical conclusion I came up with based on the literal interpretation of the merc pack description as well as official statements posted by CCP.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1994	Posted - 2013.04.16 01:02:00 - [7] - Quote Tidaen wrote: Agreed with the OP. The 'refund clause' in the merc pack was included to assure players that their purchase would be safe in the event of a reset including the one originally planned for commercial release. Then CCP decided to give the playerbase a big gift and declared that no SP would be reset on release day. In my way of thinking, CCP's decision to let us keep our SP was a nice action that I will respond to with gratitude and happily release them from their agreement to refund the merc pack upon launch. For those people who want CCP to refund their merc packs, I will say that you purchased that merc pack at a time when a launch day reset was expected. If you expect CCP to refund your merc pack, then you should also accept the character reset which the 'refund clause' was intended to PROTECT YOU against. How about this? Why not turn around the idea laid out in the original post. Upon release, have players opt in to waive their refund in return for avoiding a character reset. This way CCP is honoring their original agreement by default but allowing people to keep their characters if they agree to a modified terms of service. No, that is not what I meant. Did you even read my OP in detail? There was no mention anywhere in the merc pack that CCP would originally reset your SP in the event of commercial release. Commercial release and reset are two separate things that are mutually exclusive as worded by the merc pack during closed beta. Don't twist my words. Where are people getting this idea that a reset was intended for commercial release?
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 1999	Posted - 2013.04.16 01:49:00 - [8] - Quote @blue and Tidaen From what you describe, this seems like a community-fostered understanding. Has this been clearly confirmed (as in written in stone aka link) by CCP in the past? Pardon me for asking. I have been around since replication but even veterans can have difficulty remembering that far back for something like this.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2000	Posted - 2013.04.16 05:36:00 - [9] - Quote Tidaen wrote: Honestly, I have no problem with CCP giving out free merc packs to those who were fortunate to purchase one early on the game. However if this comes at the cost of a mandatory character reset for everyone on launch day, then I would very much like to see some other sort of solution be proposed so as to prevent this. My arguments are not based on any malice towards those who expect CCP to re-issue the merc pack. I've just realized that I have been rather swept away by all this forum rage without actually seeing any source material from CCP. How much of this debate is based upon speculation and how much is based upon actual comments made from CCP employees? If we are all just shouting in the dark at each other, perhaps it would be a better usage of time to request clarification from CCP and give them time to formulate a sane response. That is another point I'm trying to make in my original post. Too many assumptions with too little hard evidence. It's like we're inventing evidence out of thin air here and that is what I believe to be the source of all of this endless debate, thread after endless thread. I believe it is high time that CCP start coming out of the shadows and speak up for once on this. We need an official statement on this right now as this is getting way out of control and not a day goes by now that I don't see new refund threads popping up. CCP, where is that dev blog/announcement you promised us that addresses this? Those details better be worth the wait and needlessly spent aspirin.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2004	Posted - 2013.04.16 19:16:00 - [10] - Quote Overall, this conversation has led me to believe that the fairest thing for CCP to do in terms of appeasing both sides of the debate and as well as following the literal interpretations of the merc pack descriptions is to simply allow players to choose whether or not they want a refund via an in game message. PLEASE KEEP IN MIND... That choosing either option will not result in a complete reset because the descriptions in closed beta and in Gamestop made no mention whatsoever of a reset needed upon commercial release. Also, the option should only effect purchases of the merc packs made during closed beta and, if possible to track, those bought under terms mentioned by Gamestop. I remember bringing up the possibility of any negative impact on the economy of DUST as a result of this in a previous (but now locked) thread. However that post was made under the assumption that the DUST economy will open up in the next build. But since CCP now confirmed that the economy will remain closed for the next build, the possibility of a negative impact is gone. One more thing to point out. Many of you appear to believe that the original terms were understood to include a reset upon commercial release even though the original terms made no such mention. This understanding appears to be community-fostered and so far I don't see anyone posting from CCP with an official declaration of such a thing. Therefore this understanding will have to be regarded as just another assumption.

Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2005	Posted - 2013.04.16 20:14:00 - [11] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Many of you appear to believe that the original terms were understood to include a reset upon commercial release even though the original terms made no such mention. This understanding appears to be community-fostered and so far I don't see anyone posting from CCP with an official declaration of such a thing. Therefore this understanding will have to be regarded as just another assumption. These terms? http://www.dust411.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MercPackTerms.jpg I'm pretty sure that states pretty clearly that the Merc Pack contents will be credited back on commercial release. It doesn't state they'll be credited back exactly as they are in their current state, but that CCP can "substitute items of similar value" if they choose. As always though, waiting on official word from CCP... I was referring to the kind of reset that results in your character getting set back to zero. The credit of the merc pack contents (or equivalent thereof) is something I already know about.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2008	Posted - 2013.04.16 20:35:00 - [12] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Many of you appear to believe that the original terms were understood to include a reset upon commercial release even though the original terms made no such mention. This understanding appears to be community-fostered and so far I don't see anyone posting from CCP with an official declaration of such a thing. Therefore this understanding will have to be regarded as just another assumption. These terms? http://www.dust411.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/MercPackTerms.jpg I'm pretty sure that states pretty clearly that the Merc Pack contents will be credited back on commercial release. It doesn't state they'll be credited back exactly as they are in their current state, but that CCP can "substitute items of similar value" if they choose. As always though, waiting on official word from CCP... I was referring to the kind of reset that results in your character getting set back to zero. The credit of the merc pack contents (or equivalent thereof) is something I already know about. That has the full terms which actually imply the exact opposite of a reset at release. The terms "character reset" and "commercial release" are listed separately as conditions for the same thing, making it obvious that there isn't a correlation between the two. That's exactly what I was trying to point out to everyone. As an equivalent value in regards to the boosters, CCP can legally substitute the boosters with limited run copies of weapons that are of similar aurum value (in total) so as to mitigate the fear of players getting too much SP out of the deal in question. After all, CCP did say they can give substitutes. They just didn't mention what those substitutes are. Edit Or will limited run tanks do as an alternative?
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2010	Posted - 2013.04.17 00:01:00 - [13] - Quote Let's just hope CCP puts out an official announcement on this discussion sooner rather soonGäó.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2010	Posted - 2013.04.17 04:57:00 - [14] - Quote mollerz wrote: It comes down to- is time worth more or a nominal amount of money? In my mind, time is infinitely more valuable. Keep the SP. You can never put a price on time even though businessmen see it as money.
Maken Tosch OPERATIVES OF THE GOAT 2012	Posted - 2013.04.17 15:00:00 - [15] - Quote @Everyone Guys, I don't need to remind all of you that this is my thread and I don't allow anyone to flame in it. If you have a personal beef with someone, vent it out in your own thread. Once again, everyone should remember that CCP never said anything that would amount to holding a buyer's SP hostage in exchange for a refund of the merc pack contents or of equivalent value. Such a notion is something that is community fostered with no metrics to back up such a concept.