4000 shields for 400 k, wtf are you doing wrong?

My tank that had 4k in Shields, was taken down by two players carrying only Flux and AV Nades, no Proto gear.

So, basically, this gets rid of the whole, "You need a squad full of people specced into AV to take out a tank" arguement that Infantry players always fall back on.

My tank cost 400k ISK, how much did you say their fittings cost? Hardly over 30k ISK.

So, yeah, you Infantry players can keep crying. Until you stop crying and learn how to deal with tanks, you're never going to be able destroy one.

All that time spent complaining on the forums wanting tanks nerfed could be spent using your brain to deal with them.

Tanks are fine

Swarms are fine

Forge guns are fine

AV grenades too

As an AV guy, I can say that there have been MANY tanks I could not destroy. There have also been MANY I have destroyed in a couple seconds. No more complaining

Tanks are fine

Swarms are fine

Forge guns are fine

AV grenades too

As an AV guy, I can say that there have been MANY tanks I could not destroy. There have also been MANY I have destroyed in a couple seconds. No more complaining

Was there a point to this post besides some biased sentiment that your own roll is fine ?

AV nades either need there own skill progression with higher SP cost or reduced homing. It's not balanced.

It wasn't the tanks but the missiles that were OP and needed a nerf. Nerf happened...tanks are pretty much balanced. Noone credible really argued OP tanks after that.

What you see now are tankers complaining about AV equipment and infantry defending their AV counters.

Your tank sucks first off lol
Secondly I've solo'd tanks with your stats with just ADV AV nades which takes little SP to get. If the idea is EVERY tank needs squad to kill them then the games unbalanced.

But I agree tanks aren't OP. AV Nades are - Nerf homing.

Whats with all the 'Infantry only gamemode' talk and the random nerf on tank resistance and speed modules?

Was there a point to this post besides some biased sentiment that your own roll is fine ?

AV nades either need there own skill progression with higher SP cost or reduced homing. It's not balanced.

It is, there have been many times where I have thrown 3 AV grenades at a tank just to have it's shields go down 40%. Then it goes behind a hill and recharges it's shields. AV grenades are fine, you just need to skill up more

It is, there have been many times where I have thrown 3 AV grenades at a tank just to have it's shields go down 40%. Then it goes behind a hill and recharges it's shields. AV grenades are fine, you just need to skill up more

I'm maxed shield tanked, I have a 8k sagaris, it's sad when militia swarms send you running...5.6 million sp into Hav means nothing now =\

Edit: if you didn't know tanks had there passive resistant nerf Down to less them 8%

Was there a point to this post besides some biased sentiment that your own roll is fine ?

AV nades either need there own skill progression with higher SP cost or reduced homing. It's not balanced.

Can someone dig up that quote by the devs along the lines of, "We don't want equipment to determine encounters. A skilled player with good gear should beat a skilled player with bad gear, but an unskilled player with good gear should not beat a skilled player with bad gear."

The balancing in the game is all about diminishing returns. A militia swarm does 80% of the damange of an advanced swarm by design. You should never be able to say, "Oh, he's just running militia equipment. Nothing to worry about." That would be poor balance.



I would think a more experienced player would have more perspective than this, but I suppose not. Where exactly should the balance be, do you figure? Exactly how much SP should it cost to "balance" AV grenades against tanks? When will the balancing be enough?

The answer is there is no exact amount, and it will never be enough. Tank drivers will always whine about AV grenades because that's something that works. They will continue to whine as long as AV grenades are at all effective.

How about instead of going on and on about nerf this nerf that, you adapt to the tools you have and the tools your enemy has?

Can someone dig up that quote by the devs along the lines of, "We don't want equipment to determine encounters. A skilled player with good gear should beat a skilled player with bad gear, but an unskilled player with good gear should not beat a skilled player with bad gear."

The balancing in the game is all about diminishing returns. A militia swarm does 80% of the damange of an advanced swarm by design. You should never be able to say, "Oh, he's just running militia equipment. Nothing to worry about." That would be poor balance.



I would think a more experienced player would have more perspective than this, but I suppose not. Where exactly should the balance be, do you figure? Exactly how much SP should it cost to "balance" AV grenades against tanks? When will the balancing be enough?

The answer is there is no exact amount, and it will never be enough. Tank drivers will always whine about AV grenades because that's something that works. They will continue to whine as long as AV grenades are at all effective.

How about instead of going on and on about nerf this nerf that, you adapt to the tools you have and the tools your enemy has?

? What? Who says I have problems killing or being a tanker? I've stated several times how it's unbalanced - it's up to you to read. A dumb version would be : Too little SP cost and ISK cost for the hefty effect it has on the largest SP/ISK toys in the game. My perspective is a heavy - the player base who hates the tankers the most. It's almost there - fact that it takes 2 people at least to take down a decent tanker is proof that there's balance.

I want you to run head on to a c-2 leopard and throw a Grenade at it, tell me how it goes

A fuking grenade should do the damage it does to a TANK a 1/4 lb object vs a 120,000 lb tank
I see no balance

Whats with all the 'Infantry only gamemode' talk and the random nerf on tank passive resistance and speed modules?

I want you to run head on to a c-2 leopard and throw a Grenade at it, tell me how it goes

A fuking grenade should do the damage it does to a TANK a 1/4 lb object vs a 120,000 lb tank
I see no balance

Do you understand what the word "exactly" means? I hope you do. The point you're completely ignoring, and I guess I have to say again word for word, "The answer is there is no exact amount, and it will never be enough. Tank drivers will always whine about AV grenades because that's something that works. They will continue to whine as long as AV grenades are at all effective."



I was wondering how long it would take for someone to make a comparison to real life, as if "balance" between weapon systems is something that exists anywhere other than a video game.

But fine, I'll bite. Have you ever heard of a land mine? Have you ever heard of an improvised explosive device? Light, cheap weapons destroy big, heavy expensive weapons all the time. Your argument is that a grenade should not be able to destroy a tank because it weighs less?

SoTaPoP, here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about and the caliber of minds with which you're choosing to align yourself.

But I still want the homing gone. HAV is all ppl talk about - but I think of LAV when I say it. Notice the lack of LAV drivers. It's a moving tomb

If people actually put SP into LAVs, particularly shield LAVs, it wouldnt be like this though. The few people that actually have points in LAVs really surprise me when I chuck an AV at them and they still run me over with half or quarter shield left. People cant call in a free LAV without modifying it at all and expect to live through a packed AV.

lol, I know a few LAV guys, but they'll tell you first hand how easy it is to blow them up. May take an extra nade but you have 3. Takes quiet a bit of SP and ISK to get a decent LAV fit - takes nothing to kill it almost lol.

Tanks are fine

Swarms are fine

Forge guns are fine

AV grenades too

As an AV guy, I can say that there have been MANY tanks I could not destroy. There have also been MANY I have destroyed in a couple seconds. No more complaining

lmao. Real life doesn't imply to this game, indeed. He should of said, however, that explosives aimed at taking out tanks do so by aiming at certan parts of the tanks - depending on the type. Most would have weakness below there tracks - mine takes care of mobility and makes a tank worthless, while a nade would be tossed as closely underneath the tracks as possible so the explosionwould be greater against the armor and floor, creating greater pressure to tear through tracks and other weak points.. we have nothing like that in dust, instead we have the RPG element of dmg vs consequence. And it's by that idea I call AV nades imbalance. the consequence compared to effect doesn't match up like most other gears do.

I could supply one side of a CB with the best AV nades in the game by myself if they could use it - a single tank would probably cost more then that entire expense. My side wouldn't even need to grind very much to be able to use the nade - maybe a singe day. Tankers on the other hand spend months gathering the SP to be effective.

And thanks for your compliment btw

*Looks at his HMG* I don't need another weapon besides this puppy and a side arm. I throw AV nades at people btw. They tend to run - right into my HMG lol

What's with it? You choose to play infantry if you don't want to deal with tanks. Or, you choose to play regular when it doesn't matter or want something different.

lol, I know a few LAV guys, but they'll tell you first hand how easy it is to blow them up. May take an extra nade but you have 3. Takes quiet a bit of SP and ISK to get a decent LAV fit - takes nothing to kill it almost lol.

that should only matter in hisec instant battle games
uncapped grps in FW and PC should be everything allowed

if there is Ambush in FW then it should be OMS and not vanilla

that's MY tactic!!!!

If people actually put SP into LAVs, particularly shield LAVs, it wouldnt be like this though. The few people that actually have points in LAVs really surprise me when I chuck an AV at them and they still run me over with half or quarter shield left. People cant call in a free LAV without modifying it at all and expect to live through a packed AV.

So there's no consequence when you bring AV nades?

Tell me again how effective your AV Grenades are against infantry...

Thank you for bringing that bit up. My buddy fits AVs and dies all the time without throwing a single one. Sometimes I remind him to blow up an empty LAV just to get out a few extra WP. He prefers Locus more but with all the roadkill happy psychos out there you almost need to keep AVs handy.


Aside if a tank is lingering within grenade toss range then he's doing something wrong.

....

Okay... so if your friend uses AV nades he gets killed quick - but he's fine with locus? didn't realize aesthetics changed everything so much - or people could tell what nades you have in your pack...
unless your saying he's so bad he needs nades to be competitive.

My tank got 1392 shields and 9925 armor and freaking infantry can still destroy it.

AV Grenades are OP as they stand atm. AV Nades should be a Supplement.......not a GoTo as it devalues the Main AV Weapons. & the Range & Homing is obscene. Try jumping before a toss, & even w/o jumping you can 1/4 Map toss on most Ambush Maps. Bowl??? 1/2 to 2/3 Map tosses w/o jumping. Mind you this is Packed AV........god forbid I try tossing Sleeks, lol. Damage needs a Nerf for obvious reasons. When Damage Mods get fixed (If........) the Forges & Swarms will be ineffective compared to the George Foreman Grill of AV which never had nor needed Mods to rival most Main AV Weapons. Why not be both Infantry & AV Efficient @ all times??? Spec AV??? LOL!!!!!!! Save SP, spec Nades, WIN.

^ He gets it.

AV Grenades are OP as they stand atm. AV Nades should be a Supplement.......not a GoTo as it devalues the Main AV Weapons. & the Range & Homing is obscene. Try jumping before a toss, & even w/o jumping you can 1/4 Map toss on most Ambush Maps. Bowl??? 1/2 to 2/3 Map tosses w/o jumping. Mind you this is Packed AV........god forbid I try tossing Sleeks, lol. Damage needs a Nerf for obvious reasons. When Damage Mods get fixed (If........) the Forges & Swarms will be ineffective compared to the George Foreman Grill of AV which never had nor needed Mods to rival most Main AV Weapons. Why not be both Infantry & AV Efficient @ all times??? Spec AV??? LOL!!!!!!! Save SP, spec Nades, WIN.

What a nonsense post right there. Everything in that post is bull****
Don't know why you won't classify AV grenades as a "main AV weapon" when they are the only AV weapon with "AV" in their title.

Tanks are fine

Swarms are fine

Forge guns are fine

AV grenades too

As an AV guy, I can say that there have been MANY tanks I could not destroy. There have also been MANY I have destroyed in a couple seconds. No more complaining

My tank got 1392 shields and 9925 armor and freaking infantry can still destroy it.

Glass Cannon tank.

I went too far out of the redline

Sure...I wouldn't have a problem with that. But if they place an infantry only mode...even in hisec instant battle games, then that'll be fine. So, if you're tired of seeing vehicles, then you can jump in an instant battle infantry-only mode

AV nades - need the seeking feature removed from it, its a crutch

Swarms - should have to maintain lock on to hit target instead of fire and forget

Please quit this game. How are you gonna whine and flood the place with your salty tears about how 2 guys smashed you beneath their boot like the ant you are than go off and say glass cannon tank. Get good.

Then they will be used as super infantry grenade, like how they were back in e3.

AV nades - need the seeking feature removed from it, its a crutch

Swarms - should have to maintain lock on to hit target instead of fire and forget

Then everybody will say that Tanks are OP. And will get nerfed. The beautiful cycle continues

Lol.

He's not crying he is bringing up a valid point.
My shield tank only has 5000 shield, but i like it that way. Allows more room for rez and such. AV is OP, you shouldn't be able to take out 400-900k ISK in about 4 seconds by throwing a few homing grenades that cost like 24k SP to get. My tank friggin costs i'd guess 2 million Skill points to make, my Marauders take alot more then that to unlock everything i have on them.

Tanks are doomed, as more and more people unlock advanced and proto AV gear the number of people who can afford to drop a tank will diminish and you'll only ever see them in district/corp battles, probably working as intended i suppose but i'll miss fighting other tankers in pub matches.

5k shields is weaksauce. my 9k330 tear extracter + a flux will **** 5k in seconds. That aside anyone running armor tanks, my alt included, DESERVES to be taken out ASAP. Why? Because currently all the AV in this game is armor AV only the tear extracter and flux do 100% against shields.

if you get 5K in shields taken out by MLT swarms, which do 90% dmg, you blow


GG

See the whole point is, im not a ****** i don't run 5000 shield with nothing else on it. If you can solo me with flux nades and a 9k330 forge gun i give you props because i can almost guarentee you won't be able to (:

That said im not laying out my entire tank build for everyone, so stop judging tankers and builds by single statistics.

AV nades - need the seeking feature removed from it, its a crutch

Swarms - should have to maintain lock on to hit target instead of fire and forget

this guy gets it

i dont mind the AV nade lock on that much BUT it needs tweakin cuz how fast u can spam it is ********
to avoid spam cooking it for 2secs should enable the homing function, quick toss no homing

Quoted to reinforce that tank drivers will never be happy until they are invincible. Actually, not just "unhappy". They will never stop whining and QQing until they are invincible.

These are the kind of people the anti-AV squad are fighting for. Is this the "balance" you're looking for?



You choose to compliment this rambling, nonsensical rant? Yikes.

Splitting the community and putting up rails to some saying you can't go here because of the way you spent your sp is never a good idea.

AV nades - need the seeking feature removed from it, its a crutch

Swarms - should have to maintain lock on to hit target instead of fire and forget

I like this idea. They could also make Homing variants that do less damage and have a slower throwing speed.

Let me translate then. AV nades are a secondary weapon that can be used as a main weapon against very large and expensive toys. This takes away from the necessity or even value of the Forge or Swarm. I.E. could just make it a must that all members need EX-08 AV nades in CB - effectively stopping any tank push with our strong gun game to support it. And it would cost our members next to nothing to set it up ISK and SP wise. That stuff about throwing is mostly untrue - but the homing - even reduced - has made sure my accuracy on throw is almost 100%. When games get larger with more people AV nades are going to show increase effectiveness as more people are able to throw in unison. The only balance to this so far is AV nades suck vs shield.

And AV grenades are useless against anything but vehicles.
And they take PG and CPU that could be used to fit better modules.
And you have to be close enough to throw a grenade near the target.

AV grenades are not a substitute for swarms or forge guns. They are a backup primarily useful against LAVs.

If you get a squad who are all holding AV grenades within throwing range of a tank, and if that tank is unescorted by infantry, and if the tank has no line of retreat, then you will destroy the tank. This does happen, but eight times out of ten, it's because the tank driver put himself in a vulnerable position or the squad decided to suicide bum rush the tank and managed to get behind it without being noticed.

This AV homing vs. not homing argument is a distraction. The tank drivers who want AV nerfed want to be able to waltz around the battlefield with no threats whatsoever because they've convinced themselves that their 2,000,000 ISK tank shouldn't be destroyed by anything other than another 2,000,000 ISK tank.

That isn't the way things work in real life, and it's not the way things work here. If you can't deal with that, then the solution is to stop using tanks, not appeal for rule changes in your favor.

And AV grenades are useless against anything but vehicles.
And they take PG and CPU that could be used to fit better modules.
And you have to be close enough to throw a grenade near the target.

AV grenades are not a substitute for swarms or forge guns. They are a backup primarily useful against LAVs.

If you get a squad who are all holding AV grenades within throwing range of a tank, and if that tank is unescorted by infantry, and if the tank has no line of retreat, then you will destroy the tank. This does happen, but eight times out of ten, it's because the tank driver put himself in a vulnerable position or the squad decided to suicide bum rush the tank and managed to get behind it without being noticed.

This AV homing vs. not homing argument is a distraction. The tank drivers who want AV nerfed want to be able to waltz around the battlefield with no threats whatsoever because they've convinced themselves that their 2,000,000 ISK tank shouldn't be destroyed by anything other than another 2,000,000 ISK tank.

That isn't the way things work in real life, and it's not the way things work here. If you can't deal with that, then the solution is to stop using tanks, not appeal for rule changes in your favor.

I am not a tanker. I'm a Heavy. And AV nades carried by all members in a squad is indeed a replacement for main AV weapons.

lol...getting your tank blown by a solo heavy is worse than getting meleed or nova knived by a heavy

If they're going to do that then they better place a reload speed after two explosives from the mass driver. Or, maybe they should slow the ROF of blasters and large railgun turrets. Or, maybe they should increase the pulse cooldown for hardeners to 1 minute and lower the pulse to a 5 sec duration.

AV homing has been in the game for how long now? Homing is what makes the AV grenade....an AV grenade! Because locus and flux grenades all does damage to vehicles as well.

I am not a tanker. I'm a Heavy. And AV nades carried by all members in a squad is indeed a replacement for main AV weapons.

"Now this guy gets it...."

I'm reading people talking about players destroying $1M tanks with 24K sp into grenades. LOL, really?

Grenadier skill is a 4x multiplier. It cost twice as much to get proto grenades as it does to get a proto forge gun or proto swarm launcher. If you got solo'ed by packed AV grenades with a souped tank, then you're a derp and you shouldn't blame the game mechanics for your bad tanking.

Guys are talking about packed AV grenades destroying $2M tanks.....You know how many grenades it will take for a packed Lai Dai to destroy a sagaris or surya? A sagaris or surya will laugh at level 2 packed AV grenades.

Ppl complain and QQ about tanks sitting in the redzone yet u want to take away their defensive abilities more and wonder WHY alot of tankers sit in the gayest spots far away then QQ about it. When tanks were actually tanks and could take some hits u never had all this gay hill campin an **** u had ppl moving and supporting infantry but god forbid 1 guy cant solo a tank and cries about it enough to get it where we at today then they complain when they get sniped from the redline from a tank they now have no chance to reach so yea GG community.

i love when ppl with 0 knowledge on vehicle vs vehicle/AV play talk like this.

1. takes 2 swarm volleys to down an armor tank without any hardeners active
2. rails overheat after 3 shots, the rof is 2.2 secs per shot about the same as a FG, lol @ blaster suggestion
3. MD is fine for the most part u rarely see them, why are u comparing MD to an AV nade in an AV vs Vehicle discussion?
4. AV homing is ez mode same as Swarms, if u think tankin is that easy then take it out for a spin get in some tank v tank fights

So as u can see dubbs ur suggestions are extremely terrible and its coming from an AR Assault bias pov and not from an overall game balance pov.

Swarms need to maintain a lock but naturally the speed of the rockets will be a bit faster and possibly a slight dmg increase to compensate. Check Noc's post on it.

Shield Hardeners are complete joke atm and need a buff
Armor Hardeners are fine, slower tank that is meant more for defensive capabilities and ability to stay in a hotzone for a while

Even with hardeners on it doesnt give u much "tankin" ability as well. Maybe nubs should realise that the free/militia grade AV is garbage and stop using it?

Ppl complain and QQ about tanks sitting in the redzone yet u want to take away their defensive abilities more and wonder WHY alot of tankers sit in the gayest spots far away then QQ about it. When tanks were actually tanks and could take some hits u never had all this gay hill campin an **** u had ppl moving and supporting infantry but god forbid 1 guy cant solo a tank and cries about it enough to get it where we at today then they complain when they get sniped from the redline from a tank they now have no chance to reach so yea GG community.

The only one appealing for rules changes in this thread is you and your cohort. You're the one who wants to take away your adversary's abilities to keep you in check. And not just small damage value tweaks, you want to completely redesign the way two of the three primary anti-vehicle weapons work.

u do know there is not much different between standard and marauder tanks right?
also AV nades do more dmg to armor tanks so its actually very easy to take armor tanks down with some AV nade spam, shield tanks take less dmg to explosive dmg so common sense would tell ppl use flux and see how quick u can get some shields down but alas flux takes some skill to use since it doesnt auto lock on the vehicle so ppl dont use it as much as they should on shield tanks

Do you run tanks ? No. Than stop writing non-sense comments.

Do you run tanks ? No. Than stop writing non-sense comments.
I do run both tanks in my main and AV in my alt and with AV nades its pretty easy to spam and kill the tank since you dont need to aim, you just throw and it deals ridiculous damage.

The only one appealing for rules changes in this thread is you and your cohort. You're the one who wants to take away your adversary's abilities to keep you in check. And not just small damage value tweaks, you want to completely redesign the way two of the three primary anti-vehicle weapons work.

I was using the hypothetical "you". I know you don't run tanks, but you're defending their terrible arguments, and I'm not quire sure why.

Anyway, I'm sure you're right. Now that AV grenades exist, I'm sure you've never brought out your forge gun to fire on any enemy vehicle from range. Why would you when you can just walk right up to a Sagaris and take it out with a few AV grenades risk free?

It wasn't the tanks but the missiles that were OP and needed a nerf. Nerf happened...

What you see now are tankers complaining about AV equipment and infantry defending their AV counters.

Tanks are a crutch.....since you want to go there.

There isn't a feature in the game that someone wouldn't cry "crutch" about.

Hands up those who can remember the days when AV nades didn't have the homing feature?

Hands up those who thought it was awesome when CCP announced they'd put it in?

Hands up those who remember *why* CCP put it in in the first place?

Oh right. Not too many people. CCP put in the homing because people were running around with AV nades (me included) as a multi-purpose grenade. They did so much damage that the normal AP grenades were pretty much useless in comparison. They didn't only go off near a vehicle, they went off where you threw them, so people were using them as normal grenades aswell.

CCP's answer was to make them explode upon impact on vehicles. It didn't need a buff or a nerf to damage. It's fine in its current state. It also makes sense that an AV nade would be attracted to a vehicle, to cause maximum damage.

If you cannot hit a HAV which is a ******* massive target without needing help from a gimmick mechanic then go biomass yourself now

It's actually difficult to do that without the homing. "I threw a grenade and it landed about an inch away from the tank, but it didn't blow up. I couldn't get closer because if I popped out of cover too long, I would have died." That's a scenario I face quite often. The cover part, not the grenade not exploding.

The lore is that the AV grenade arms itself when it comes close to a vehicle, and then homes in on it. It works fine at the moment.

I will never agree with the mechanism

It makes it far too easy to cause damage to tanks with little risk

I have infantry hiding somewhere where i cannot hit in a million years and they just spam them from cover and it looks like the nades are nowhere near my tank then it seeks and hits me

The seeking distance is huge it seems

It's really not - only a couple of metres. And that's why you have infantry support. Tanks aren't meant to lone wolf it. Infantry supports the tanks, and tanks support the infantry. Your infantry should have run in and either flushed them out or taken them out.

It's really not - only a couple of metres. And that's why you have infantry support. Tanks aren't meant to lone wolf it. Infantry supports the tanks, and tanks support the infantry. Your infantry should have run in and either flushed them out or taken them out.

Couple of metres lolno

More like 10m

AV nades are so easy to use and quick aswell, infantry can be sent in but if that tank is ther just keep lobbing nades because it will die at the rate you can spam them

The tank can just...back up a bit. Why is it still just sitting there after one nade throw?

Couple of metres lolno

More like 10m

AV nades are so easy to use and quick aswell, infantry can be sent in but if that tank is ther just keep lobbing nades because it will die at the rate you can spam them

Please quit this game. How are you gonna whine and flood the place with your salty tears about how 2 guys smashed you beneath their boot like the ant you are than go off and say glass cannon tank. Get good.