Scouts are bad in close combat now.

Only ones I am familiar with are Reflex and Omni.

I eat through most Heavy's with an Ishukone SMG.

Scout suits just don't have the CPU/PG for the damage mod stacking that is important for ARs, especially when you are already using a suit with less max HP. Combine that with the slightly lower strafe speed and there isn't much reason to use a scout over assault with the AR.

As for the SMG, your guess is as good as mine. It might be because, at the lower levels, it takes a bit longer to kill than the shotgun. Most scouts that likely would have gone with the SMG probably went assault or settled with a shotgun. The lowered strafe speed hasn't affected my use of the shotgun, but it gives SMGs that much less of an edge at the lower tiers.

I've only run into one Ishukone SMG, I believe it was Icy, and it took me down pretty fast. Earlier on, the Toxins and militia SMGs were much less threatening, which leads me to believe there is a bit of an imbalance when it comes to using them as primary weapons. Considering they are technically sidearms, it makes sense that it would take a bit more investment to make it a competitive primary.

I don't exactly know what about using an AR or SMG does to make someone a "great scout" over other weapons. But, I'll just ignore that comment for the time being.

I roll Dragonfly and Toxin SMG along with a sniper rifle. If I'm not out and about marking red dots and counter-sniping, I'm rolling the SMG and spraying people down along with frags and hacking for WP.

Still not as good as I'd like to be though...

I've always seen the difference between shotgun and SMG to be reaction time/situational awareness vs. precision/target acquisition respectively.

I have an extremely fast reaction time and play very instinctively, but I couldn't reliably keep a target in my sights if my life depended on it. Me trying to play with an SMG is a flailing mess of fail, I'm much better at taking the one split second shot.

You won't ever see me using an AR or SMG, but I don't underestimate their effectiveness. The shotgun is extremely useful at low tiers and low skill levels, but it's effectiveness increases linearly at best. The SMG seems to start very low and increase exponentially as you reach higher weapon tiers and invest in proficiency skills.

while this might be true the SMG is too little too late, you get less dps then any other gun and while its easier to apply said DPS, scouts kinda rely on getting in and out quickly and the SMG just does not provide.

SMG has low range, low accuracy and lower dps than anything. you have to dump alot SP into it to make it decent and still anyone using it over AR should rethink it, AR offers more damage per clip, fires just as long before reload, reloads just as fast, offers more range, more dps and more flexilibility. SMG is also weaker against shields and type 2 assault (the most common suit on the field) has big shields. SMG is for people that cannot aim up close and want to spray because they lack skill

btw specialist shotgun is way better then the SMG, minimal fitting requirements and you can still kill stuff faster than with the SMG up to 15 meters due to the fall off mechanics. SMG is terrible outside 10 meters due to the accuracy. the shotgun on the other hand will two shot anything at that range before the SMG goes through the shields.

oh, not to mention that the breach SMG is the worst weapon ingame, 30% less dps than regular SMG, 50% less than an AR and it only gets a slight accuracy boost

stuff

if you cant achieve atleast 30% hit rate with the AR up close then you are terrible by FPS standards.

you also mentioned SMG sights, I hope you are joking... SMG sights slow down turn speed massively, even a heavy can outrun it.

note that I have alot more SP invested in SMG than you and the AR is still superior with zero SP investment.

I suggest you to test this out by yourself: put points into shotgun and into primary weapon sharpshooter skill (but I guess you already have it anyway). take the specialist shotgun which has better fitting requirements than SMG (yeah the specialist shotgun, a primary weapon, is easier to fit than the SMG). go to a heavy suit that is 15m away from you. Now try to kill him. do the same with assault SMG and you will see how fast the heavy drops against the shotgun compared to the SMG. the shotgun has like 30 meters falloff, that means, it still deals incredible damage at 20 meter range despite having only 9 meter optimal. the SMGs accuracy and weakness against shields is a massive letdown in a game were most fights happen at around 20 meter range and the most common suit is the caldari assault type 2 with massive shields. there is not point to use a "close combat" weapon like the SMG when you can simply take the specialist shotgun with even better fitting requirements.

Toxin vs. GEK or Duvolle in CQC range.

If I'm using the Toxin (SMG Ops level 2 or 3, depending on which character I'm running), and I'm not going Scout vs. Heavy, then the Toxin wins at least 80% of the time. If I'm using the GEK or Duvolle, then the Toxin wins at least 70% of the time. If I'm watching a fight between players with Toxins and GEKs or Duvolles, the Toxin will win more often.

At the longer ends of SMG range, using the sights on the gun can provide a MASSIVE accuracy improvement, and in my experience, that accuracy buff combined with good aim on the move can tip the balance in my favour pretty consistently. In mid-range for SMGs, it practically doubles the damage output when aiming for a single target.

EDIT: There's also the fact that - as I've tried to argue in the past - lower precision can be an advantage in CQC. When you're in close, it's impossible to always anticipate a good player's movements and correct your aim, but having a weapon with spread like the SMG has gives you a wider margin for error when trying to follow an erratic target. Misreading your opponent when using a high-spread SMG only reduces your damage instead of cutting you off completely, and can usually be recovered from faster than missing with an AR as well.

But group fire chews through scouts, and we are seeing more mob style play with the new spawn system.

Yes, but you achieve that accuracy by NOT continuously firing, meaning you're still losing out on your DPS even if you're not losing as much in your damage per reload. The SMG with 30% accuracy will still be dealing more damage, faster, and will get the kill first in most cases, even when it's cheap Scout vs. expensive Assault.

in CQC, yeah. At the kind of range where the accuracy improvement is useful, Scouts have to sprint to beat your turning speed. I wasn't talking about using SMG sights in CQC, because I'm not an idiot. Sorry to disappoint.

The Specialist Shotgun is nice. And you're TOTALLY right about the 24 CPU it requires being less than the 15 CPU required by the equivalent SMG, or the 18 CPU required by the Assault variant. It's also SUCH a big surprise that a primary CQC weapon is better for CQC than a Sidearm with a similar range profile. And please, tell me, exactly which suit are you using that allows you to pair that Shotgun with a Sniper Rifle or a Swarm Launcher?

/signed

Why would I fire in bursts close combat? The AR can hip fire continuously just fine.

At ~15 meters range, heavy outsprints SMG sights turn speed. Type 2 suits and scout can simply outrun it without sprinting. I am talking about forward speed movement, not sidestep movement but this illustrates how horrible the sights actually are.

When is CPU an issue for you? you can lower the CPU requirement by alot with skills for weapons and alot of other modules, you cant do the same with PG, my fittings are never tight on CPU. I know scouts CPU is low but it is manageable after skilling up those skills that lower CPU requirement.

Obviously haven't played against someone with good CQC skills if you're hitting consistently with hipfire in close quarters.

So you're saying there are no PG increasing modules? And no skills that reduce PG use of any modules a Scout could conceivably be fitting? And ignoring the question about pairing the Shotgun with a Sniper Rifle or Swarm Launcher? Or did you forget that those are fitting requirements too?

And that's why taking a comment about using the sights at EXTREME SMG RANGE out of context didn't help you at all. I never said a word about trying to use sights in close range. Or even mid-range for that matter.

Now I only see Snipers and Shotgunners who use the Scout Suit. Granted, some of them are good at it, but where are all the AR and SMG users of old? Off the top of my head, Satori was pretty beast.

I run alone now with my Ishukone SMG, and wish some more people would join me. It's a good life.

I run Assault rather than Scout suits, but I have trained SMG to 5 and SMG Proficiency to 2. It makes me feel a lot less vulnerable when running fits that include a Sniper Riffle, Laser, or Swarm Launcher. On Urban maps I have shifted my thinking so that I consider my long range weapon to be my secondary/situational weapon.

Now I only see Snipers and Shotgunners who use the Scout Suit. Granted, some of them are good at it, but where are all the AR and SMG users of old? Off the top of my head, Satori was pretty beast.

I run alone now with my Ishukone SMG, and wish some more people would join me. It's a good life.

Now I only see Snipers and Shotgunners who use the Scout Suit. Granted, some of them are good at it, but where are all the AR and SMG users of old? Off the top of my head, Satori was pretty beast.

I run alone now with my Ishukone SMG, and wish some more people would join me. It's a good life.

and now, as evidence I present you a nice video made by someone else. at around 0:50 it shows how bad the SMG really is UP CLOSE AGAINST a STATIONARY target and at around 20 meters range:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIJkDmzRK_A => at around 0:50 he engages a type 2 suit, stationary target. starts to shot him, it takes too long to even break the shield UP CLOSE on a STATIONARY target hitting every bullet, the assault suit simple walks way one second after realizing that someone is attacking him. few seconds later he engages the assault with no shields again at about 20 meter range, he uses sights to hit him but deals almost no damage cause the spread is too large. he gets hit 3 times from the AR hip fire and runs for his life. yeah SMG sights "help" alot at range, when you deal no damage

Nice example.

When you say "up close" it looks like you mean "up close" as in "well out of CQC range and far enough that it's worth using sights on a stationary target" so yeah, that's up close now. And I'm assuming that almost half the shots missing and none of them landing as headshots because the guy can't keep his aim on target the whole time was meant to somehow count as "hitting every bullet", so with those assumptions covered...

You're right, taking an undamaged SHIELD-TANKED Assault suit into armour damage in less than a second with a BPO weapon is definitely "too long" and "dealing no damage".

Also, I like how you say he "simply walks away" when he immediately ducked into cover, knowing where he enemy was shooting from, and kept the cover between himself and the attacker until he could escape - as you'd describe it, "running for his life". As well he should when his suit is weighted in favour of shields as protection and already down to armour before he had time to react.

so you tell us, that if we are 2 meter infront of someone we should use sights with SMG

also he did not ducked for cover, he walked away without sprinting after getting hit for 1 second of full dps of the SMG but because of SMGs weakness against shields he barely broke his shields. SMG could not finish him off later because the spread made him miss alot of bullets at that range. scrambler would kill him on objective and one shot him with a clear headshot. shotgun would one shot this guy on objective, and 2 shot him later without shields. AR would leave him deep into armor and finish him off later. the spread makes the SMG useless beyond 10 meters, you can deny it as much as you want, but the video shows truth well.

That was closer to 15m than 2m. Probably actually 10m, but why don't I play your game for a bit?

attacker was aiming the wrong way by the time he moved,

now you claim this is 15-10 meters away and he aimed in the wrong direction
sure that 3 meters are magically 10-15 meters and he wasnt aiming at him properly at all, but oh wait the video shows something else https://www.dropbox.com/s/9n4k18aswsyueyk/Clipboard01.jpg yeah that is "totally" 10 meters away and he is "totally" not aiming at him hahaha

no word can describe your cluelessness but I guess ignorance is a blessing in your case

Lets look at the position he was firing from - but BEFORE he scoped in (he didn't move closer, he ONLY used the sights, which ZOOM YOUR VIEW IN):
Link.
That definitely looks a lot like 3m. You're totally right.

Now lets look at how "on-target" he was as his target started to move:
Link.

Yep. On-target. Definitely.

your first screenshots shows him walking up to him
your second screenshot shows the assault guy walking away after receiving bullets for over a second.

so what is your point again? that you are a welp full of ignorance?

what is even more amusing is, that you still try to argue about something that you cant argue, everyone can check the video and see that you are full of bs your troll posts dont help you in anyway, you just make yourself look stupid.