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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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CCP Frame
C C P C C P Alliance
470
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Posted - 2013.02.28 08:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear players,
During todayGÇÖs downtime we applied a hotfix that improved spawn mechanics and added new spawn locations for Ambush game mode with biomass or communication outposts on maps. However, our job is far from over. We are looking for your feedback on this new system for these specific types of maps and we are constantly working on expanding and improving this system to the entire ambush game mode, as stated by CCP Draco right here.
Thank you for your cooperation and feedback, we are looking forward to it! |
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Beren Hurin
OMNI Endeavors
189
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Posted - 2013.02.28 13:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm showing your CCP Draco link as broken? |
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CCP Frame
C C P C C P Alliance
471
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Posted - 2013.02.28 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:I'm showing your CCP Draco link as broken? Apologies, this is now fixed. |
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Abimelech Mahatan
Commando Perkone Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.02.28 15:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
First off, I really like the direction the changes have taken. It was not too enjoyable to spawn with an enemy already at your back. I have run into a few strange situaitons that the new spawn system created when i was playing. The first is that i saw an enemy spawn in the middle of the rest of my team. Then as one or two popped up, others started to spawn there as i assume the threat level decreased for them as more of their allies came in. They were quickly and unfairly wiped out though as they did show up unexpectedly in the middle of all of us. The other situation is when a group gets cornered but not overrun, their allies continue to spawn in the same corner with them. If you set up a line of fire from multiple angles on the same position then it can start to feel like a spawn camping situation. If there was a way to judge when not to spawn in a trapped corner that would be beneficial. This stuff only happened in 2 out of about 10 games i played so its hardly a common situation but it did happen. |
v3k3v
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
24
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Posted - 2013.02.28 15:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Spawning at the edges of the map would seem to work better. It might be too complex to take the data but areas with cover and 2nd: areas not in the line of site by enemy clones. Seems to be rather simple.
Honestly we should always be able to drop into the map from above and kinda glide into the location we feel safe. That way our spawn hit point is always under our control. Plus just like the good old laser rifle you will be able to see guys shooting down onto the map so we will know generally where they landed. This is obviously more realistic for the game. Clones jumping out of spaceships above the battle field. Unlike the MCC though where you just drop straight down. You could easily create invisible slick like shapes on top of the structures you dont want people landing on so if you were to aim for that given location you would just be diverted to a normally obtainable ground or building location. |
Gunner Nightingale
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
247
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Posted - 2013.02.28 15:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Persoanally this makes it even easier to spawn camp as the maps are simply not large enough for players to spawn in out of danger.
The result me and my squad move in a circle we get eyes on one new enemy spawning and we zerg and usually the whole team follows us since we all know the ENTIRE enemy team will be there shortly
Given the way players spawn in with the clone appearing prior to mind transfer and our ability to damage them during this initial process we can wipe out clones BEFORE the player has CONTROL.
Im not going to bash this as i applaud the effort. It just needs to factor in map size and player count.
The most notorious map for abuse is manus peak(bowl map/merc events map)
Here once a team is spreads out like a fan around the bowl the rock peak to the North east and the larger two rock formation opposite side.
The algorithms only "safe" spawn is the clearing opposite the bowl to the left if you are facing out from the bowl towards the two rocks where enemies often spawn.
Actually ill use the map coordinates from the feedback page to be more specific.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=48086&find=unread
Team has players positioned at [C/D 3-4; C/D5-6 and D/E 6-7] only safe spawn is E/F 4-6. This is a open clearing and basic a spawn lock that cannot be defeated.
That said it seem Line Harvest and Skim junction maps that have more cover and more playable space this algorithm works better but again we can still move in a circle and zerg an area and cut off escape because once we see one player spawn there we know the whole team is going to spawn there its utterly predictable and can be easily gamed. Where it fails is Manus Peak and Ashland as these maps are much smaller in terms of useable map space and thus easier for a 16 person team to cover.
I for one liked the old setup because even though the spawns were random they were fixed so once you knew where they were you tactical awareness made sure you were covering your flank if you were running and gunning.
Moreover i found if i delayed my return to battle for about 15 seconds it gave the algorithm time to spawn me in a realtively "safer" spawn point. This also held true for me in the beginning as i would wait 30-45 seconds before spawning or until i saw at least a handful of enemy reds before spawning in.
However that works on an individual scale but if everyone did it would still create that initial ambush since everyone is spawning together the algorithm cant use all its variables to adjust for spawns. My solution to the "first spawn" spawn problem of the old algorithm is create is so first spawn is all team spawn together and on the two farthest points on the map. After which let the old spawn mechanic take over, and get the word out it needs 15second to find a proper match. Then test this for a month and see if the result hold true.
Moreover the playerbase needs to get out of the COD mentality of rapid return to combat. The reason clone counts drop so fast is becaue 8-10 people die and they all hit respawn instead of waiting to be revived. IGN comments on the live feed so many QQ about 10second timer on respawn as if its a bad thing. The game should be frantic but theres a different between chicken with its head cut off type of pace and disordered ordered caos pace.
Moreover uplinks can drop respawn time to 5 or less seconds.
My advice CCP is you need to build up your own YouTube channel and starting creating "advanced" features videos that shows how as you progress how the gameplay evolves and the "tools" of the trade that will allow for that. I apoligize for this slightly off topic rant but i feel it all ties together as the primary complaint over ambush spawns comes from players not understanding the system and an overeagerness to return too quickly to combat. |
v3k3v
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
24
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
You need to take into account if a team mate died in the area. If you dont include that data with a spawn point then the system is fail. The smaller map with just hills is nasty. I killed at least 3 guys in a small area and more team mates just kept spawning in the same area.. then same thing with the other corner of the map.. went 23/1 just running from the east to the west. on the bottom of that map. |
WR3CK HAVOC
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
12
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
How about a NEW SPAWN SYSTEM for ambush. You get 3 choices .
1 New hot drop anywhere on map. The disadvantage is obviously people will see you come in and you will be disoriented. 2 unlinks 3 random spawn.old system. |
martinofski
Rebelles A Quebec
18
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nice post Gunner, I agree with most point.
I am not sure I liked the old spawn version as it was, it just needed some tweeking.
I noticed that the new spawn mechanic has a good side. - It bring the team together for better team work and more involving fights instead of 1 vs 1 - I don't need to cross the complete map to regroup with my squad.
The big downside I see is that once a team get killed by the other teams, it all go wrong.
Playing a few ambush last night, I notice I ended up looking at the red arrow(ennemy location) after a bunch of reds got killed, since once someone spawn, we can see is red arrow for like a second and I knew all is team would spawn there too.
So in the end, it ended up being a group of blueberry chasing the new spawn location of the other team, knowing exactly where it was.
I think we shouldn't see those when people spawn. Can't play tactical when the other team know you just appeared on the other side of the building.
Maybe a stupid idea, but people in ambush could act as CRU. You select the one you want to spawn to. For the first spawn, do just like Gunner said, all the team together. Then you select the blue you want to appear with. This way you don't get any spawn killing and you chose if you want to appear right into the ennemy fire or on a safer location where your squad is waiting for you. You don't need to be awared where are those spam point and make sure you don't get hit in the back from a freshly spawned guy. I do understand though that it make the droplink somehow useless in ambush. but even there, they would have their function : spawn in a place where you were before, maybe alone like snipers, maybe on a building roof were you were previously, etc. |
BMSTUBBY
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
97
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gunner Nightingale wrote:Persoanally this makes it even easier to spawn camp as the maps are simply not large enough for players to spawn in out of danger. The result me and my squad move in a circle we get eyes on one new enemy spawning and we zerg and usually the whole team follows us since we all know the ENTIRE enemy team will be there shortly Given the way players spawn in with the clone appearing prior to mind transfer and our ability to damage them during this initial process we can wipe out clones BEFORE the player has CONTROL. Im not going to bash this as i applaud the effort. It just needs to factor in map size and player count. The most notorious map for abuse is manus peak(bowl map/merc events map) Here once a team is spreads out like a fan around the bowl the rock peak to the North east and the larger two rock formation opposite side. The algorithms only "safe" spawn is the clearing opposite the bowl to the left if you are facing out from the bowl towards the two rocks where enemies often spawn. Actually ill use the map coordinates from the feedback page to be more specific. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=48086&find=unreadTeam has players positioned at [C/D 3-4; C/D5-6 and D/E 6-7] only safe spawn is E/F 4-6. This is a open clearing and basic a spawn lock that cannot be defeated. That said it seem Line Harvest and Skim junction maps that have more cover and more playable space this algorithm works better but again we can still move in a circle and zerg an area and cut off escape because once we see one player spawn there we know the whole team is going to spawn there its utterly predictable and can be easily gamed. Where it fails is Manus Peak and Ashland as these maps are much smaller in terms of useable map space and thus easier for a 16 person team to cover. I for one liked the old setup because even though the spawns were random they were fixed so once you knew where they were you tactical awareness made sure you were covering your flank if you were running and gunning. Moreover i found if i delayed my return to battle for about 15 seconds it gave the algorithm time to spawn me in a realtively "safer" spawn point. This also held true for me in the beginning as i would wait 30-45 seconds before spawning or until i saw at least a handful of enemy reds before spawning in. However that works on an individual scale but if everyone did it would still create that initial ambush since everyone is spawning together the algorithm cant use all its variables to adjust for spawns. My solution to the "first spawn" spawn problem of the old algorithm is create is so first spawn is all team spawn together and on the two farthest points on the map. After which let the old spawn mechanic take over, and get the word out it needs 15second to find a proper match. Then test this for a month and see if the result hold true. Moreover the playerbase needs to get out of the COD mentality of rapid return to combat. The reason clone counts drop so fast is becaue 8-10 people die and they all hit respawn instead of waiting to be revived. IGN comments on the live feed so many QQ about 10second timer on respawn as if its a bad thing. The game should be frantic but theres a different between chicken with its head cut off type of pace and disordered ordered caos pace. Moreover uplinks can drop respawn time to 5 or less seconds. My advice CCP is you need to build up your own YouTube channel and starting creating "advanced" features videos that shows how as you progress how the gameplay evolves and the "tools" of the trade that will allow for that. I apoligize for this slightly off topic rant but i feel it all ties together as the primary complaint over ambush spawns comes from players not understanding the system and an overeagerness to return too quickly to combat.
Excellent post thank you for sharing this it pretty much covers everything.
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Kromestien
Lost-Legion
0
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Posted - 2013.02.28 17:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
I can't say anything for the spawn mechanics but it terms for CRU/uplinks, i think that a lore friendly solution it having a high rate scanner that will warn you on the spawnin map how close and how many enemies are camping it. maby 10-15 meters for CRU, 5-10 ferr a uplink? I mean it's the damn future. we can have scanners in them things right? |
martinofski
Rebelles A Quebec
18
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Posted - 2013.02.28 17:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kromestien wrote:I can't say anything for the spawn mechanics but it terms for CRU/uplinks, i think that a lore friendly solution it having a high rate scanner that will warn you on the spawnin map how close and how many enemies are camping it. maby 10-15 meters for CRU, 5-10 ferr a uplink? I mean it's the damn future. we can have scanners in them things right?
Maybe proto uplink could have a built in scanner to detect the surrounding yes, but militia is like walmart stuff |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
641
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Posted - 2013.02.28 18:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
If this is the ambush spawn system we had since yesterday, it is good for the first wave of spawns, but is too easily gamed later into the match by a team that has an upper hand. As a result, I regularly saw way more spawn camping yesterday than before due to this spawn system.
Once one blob overruns another blob, they have free access to spawn camp the enemy team. This seems to happen because the camping blob is actually spread out on the map (maps being part of the problem, way too small for this system), making the rest of the map seem hostile - half the team is doing the camping, a quarter still running to join in on the camping, and the other quarter roaming around wondering if they're spawning somewhere else yet. The camped team sits there spawning in the same spot, especially if the camping team is killing from a distance, and partly because there are still their teammates nearby as they're trying to spawn (even if those nearby are about to be gunned down instantly, they're still "in the area" according to the algorithm). |
Eskel Bondfree
DUST University Ivy League
76
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Posted - 2013.02.28 18:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
I also experienced the problem of the outgunned team starting to spawn all in the same area, creating a spawn trap for them. Nobody can get out of there because the whole enemy team is camping around the area.
I think the algorithm should make sure that there always exists a minimum random distribution of both teams on the map. I.e. never spawn 99% of one team in the same area. If 50% of one team is huddled up in one place, the rest of them *must* start to spawn in other random locations, which would ideally result in the creation of multiple "hot spots" for team spawning.
In other words, at some point the weight of "team players nearby" needs to be reduced dramatically, until another hot spot for spawning begins to emerge where people can spawn in relative safety. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
336
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Posted - 2013.02.28 19:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
These maps are simply too small.
At some point you chose to shrink the redlines in on these maps.
This was a HUGE mistake.
Since then the spawns have been problematic so you fiddle with the spawns trying to fix your previous HUGE MISTAKE IN SHRINKING THE AMBUSH MAPS IN THE FIRST PLACE.
This new system is AWFUL.
You can't fix it with clever code.
We will camp spawns and make this terrible for people.
The maps+spawns are substantially more teamfire blob boring.
Learning to teamfire is something squads need to learn to do together. It shouldn't happen automatically because the map is too small and the spawns bad.
Most of the verbal feedback from vets I've heard is "yah they are trying to make this game like COD, its just dumb". |
Argo Filch
BetaMax.
0
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Posted - 2013.02.28 20:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd add two things to the algorithm.
First, as was mentioned by others before me, take into consideration death of players near the spawn points... it should be considered less safe if tons of people died near it recently.
And the second one would be, have some kind of cap for how many people spawn in a "safe" location to keep people from spawning all in the same location. If the cap is reached have them spawn at the second safest location. Something like that.
Those both things would reduce the spawing and respawning in the same location problem.
my 2ct |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
779
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Posted - 2013.02.28 20:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tried the game show matches today, was spawned into a HAV basters stream of fire 4 times. The qualifier is of course that since the map used for the game show is so small the spawning mechanics may have been struggling to deal with their constraints (there were 2x blaster HAVs on the field after all).
Will report back in when I've played more games (and game types) to provide a broader spectrum of experience for feedback.
Cheers, Cross |
BGoat
DUST University Ivy League
6
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Posted - 2013.02.28 21:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Honestly, does anyone even test these changes before pushing them out? I know that part of participating in the Beta is to do some of that testing ourselves, but if anyone at CCP played even a few games with these spawn "improvements", it would have been immediately clear that it has huge flaws and is even worse than what we had previously.
Now I have to make sure I put a Drop Uplink down in some out of the way location so I can escape the spawn camp of death. At least before, I could choose to spawn randomly at one of the fixed points. Now, I'm forced to continually spawn back into a bloodbath if there are no Drop Uplinks elsewhere. SMH... |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
412
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Posted - 2013.02.28 22:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
I think the above mentioned hybrid system (new style spawn initially, then old style as the match progresses) makes a lot of sense.
As annoying as it was to spawn next to a red at the start all the time (for the reds, at least ), it generally became much less of a problem as the match progressed. The old style spawns were also more tactical, letting the more coordinated, communicative team blob up faster. |
Sloth9230
Reaper Galactic
279
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Posted - 2013.03.01 02:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Use the current system for the initial spawn, but use the old random system after that.
Beren Hurin wrote: Another issue that may be a factor is vulnerability. Technically, I believe that our body is killable before we can even see on the field, let alone move. This could be a client server latency issue, but I don't think so. I don't know if these are intended mechanics, but it is frustrating that we can't move until 2-3 seconds after we are actually vulnerable.
In Eve when you spawn in through a gate, you actually can't be targetted (or target others) for a few seconds. I'm wondering if we could either make us unable to kill/be killed for a second or two after we spawn. As fun as it is to camp a CRU and kill the half materialized bodies before it has a chance to turn, it might be more fair to do it some other way. Lore wise...not sure this would make sense though.
We really do need some invulnerably while spawning, I'll finish spawning and I'm already half dead |
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noname warrior
DUST University Ivy League
4
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Posted - 2013.03.01 05:17:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Frame wrote:Dear players, During todayGÇÖs downtime we applied a hotfix that improved spawn mechanics and added new spawn locations for Ambush game mode with biomass or communication outposts on maps. However, our job is far from over. We are looking for your feedback on this new system for these specific types of maps and we are constantly working on expanding and improving this system to the entire ambush game mode, as stated by CCP Draco right here. Thank you for your cooperation and feedback, we are looking forward to it!
I'm not seeing it. I jumped into three ambushes tonight after work and each one of them was a slaughter, like with the reds winning with 50 or more clones left and pretty much farming kills the moment the blues rezzed. Not fun. Not at all fun. I try and remain positive about being a noob and trying to learn how to fight in this game by gaining experience but when I'm redlined repeatedly the moment I rez without even a chance to return fire and that happens in three straight instant ambushes and the blues are getting creamed by more than 50 clones in each one of them, then I'm thinking you've pretty royally screwed the matchmaking algorithm to the point where it's a nerf on steroids. Makes me not want to come back anytime soon because that was totally not enjoyable. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
779
|
Posted - 2013.03.01 05:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Further testing will be required be after playing the day initial impressions are as follows. (Testing was done in all match types, both quick battle and merc tab. testing was also conducted both in and out of squads).
The smaller the map size the greater the likelihood of spawn camp issues, in the same vein the fewer possible spawn locations (both fixed and random) the greater the probability of spawn camping.
Simply put these factors combine to make the new system more likely to cause trouble in an ambush than a skirmish. Ambush maps are typically smaller, lack the value of static null cannon spawn points, more often lack static CRU spawn points (depending on ambush type) and less frequently see the deployment of uplinks (due to a host of factors).
Despite the problems within the new system my impression is that it's a step in the right direction. Refinements must be made to avoid the creation of the default spawn traps others have described in this thread. Judging by the first days testing I would say weighting the spawns more heavily away from hostile forces than [i]toward]/i] teammates would be helpful, and within the team spawn adding extra weight to spawning near your squad members would also improve things. Further the new system has solve (or at least mitigated) various static spawn traps that existed within skirmish maps. So on balance a step in the right direction, albeit one that requires some polish as well as a more robust system to acount for the size scaling of the map.
0.02 ISK after first days testing Cross
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2-Ton Twenty-One
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
239
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Posted - 2013.03.01 05:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
Peoples gameplay will adjust to the new system just like we did for the old one. CCP will wait a month or 2 before readjustment of the new spawn system and rightly so.
Its growing pains and first day patch go and change it back? why? wait till the players have to adapt their game before doing anything.
And seeing as how dust 514 has one of the most stubborn knuckle-dragging playerbase of any game i have been the part of (IE See anti Tank and anti heavy). It will take like 3 months before most pull put their heads out of their butts and try to adapt to the new system anyway.
CCP has no point and no reason to listen to any of you at this stage of the patch, they will and should wait for the players to have to adapt and overcome, just like AV and fighting heavys.
Sadly, you could literally change everything and most players will do the same old thing they have always done, just banging their head on that brick wall over and over and over and over and over.
The sheep make the most noise in the pasture after all. |
Centurion mkII
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
13
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Posted - 2013.03.01 05:58:00 -
[24] - Quote
I like the new system. The old one was more chaotic and had its fun points. Currently though its like there is two points and you run towards each other. Id prefer if we spread out more along the side of a map and met in the middle. So like 3 spawn points per side. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
138
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:28:00 -
[25] - Quote
Honestly I just want to RAGE Flame this posting. Several games - spawned into the blue dot death pit. Guys falling left and right and i keep spawning in the middle! Broken! Sure I'm a little sore from losing each time, at least the random spawns gave a mechanic of flow to the system of spawning and tactically opened up an new avenue of attack.
Sure, if i was on the winning side - slaying hundreds is always fun but it still shows the error of the setup - especially when the calculation relies on random blue dots. Broken spawn system... still. This is worse than before. at least last time i just planned on cooking a grenade when I spawned in order to deal with the attackers, but now i don't even get cover - except for that small moment where the enemy is reloading.
not cool |
Raze Minhaven
Caffeine Commodities Company
1
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Posted - 2013.03.01 08:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think the new spawn system is a little to safe. People seem to be ok not using wel placed / protected drop uplinks which really hurts us logis. I know not a lot of people really play logi but its things like this (and the whole getting points only half the time when you rep) that make people say f' it to the logis.... |
rpastry
Carbon 7
29
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Posted - 2013.03.01 08:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
I don't know if it works any better. huge gluts of red dots seem to get massacred frequently at spawn, pretty much defenceless. It can mean meatgrinder moments of 3-6 easy kills, whereas previously you maybe get one unlucky player. Can see what its trying to do, and when it does work its cool.
I'd add what others have said and go for 3 sec invulnerability at spawn, or player selectable drop area.
OR random spawning could be removed completely - player either uses an uplink or has an 'aimed' drop (with possibility of accuracy modifiers and restricted areas)
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Monkxx
Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.03.01 09:24:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mkay, what if you add Orbital Spawn for this kind of matches? To balance the things with the Droplinks Orbital Spawn will look like Space Marine capsule :). It will be available only when you are in Squad and your full squad is dead. So basically you spawn all together in one place with cool effects like Killzone3 and you are able to choose the place to be dropped :P If you want instaspawn - use the Droplink. |
KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
173
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Posted - 2013.03.01 11:14:00 -
[29] - Quote
So far it has been better.
I don't play Ambush but did get into one in the game show server.
The Ambush OMS was fine and it was in Skim Junction. I played there several times and it was an enjoyable time.
Some of my squad mates like to play Ambush so I am sure we will have more feedback later this week. |
A'Real Fury
The Silver Falcon Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.03.01 12:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
I agree after the initial spawn a certain amount of randomness would be nice. It would be highly useful if the spawn software were to monitor the death rate at a given spawn point I.e if people are dying at a given spawn point within 2-3 seconds and it occurs 2-3 times in a row or if there are a large number of deaths (4 +) within a small time period (10 secs) then that spawn point should be ignored as it is being camped and another spawn point selected.
The only times this should be ignored is with uplinks as players have the ability to choose whether to use one or not.
If you want to get fancy then you could add grids to the map, each grid covering quite a large area, and players can select which grid to spawn in but not the specific area within the grid. However, this choice should only occur after the 1st death and not the initial spawn. |
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