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Sticky:Improved ambush spawn mechanics and new spawn locations feedback

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
noname warrior DUST University Ivy League 5	Posted - 2013.03.01 14:11:00 - [31] - Quote Perhaps maybe the only answer to these instant ambush spawn farming kill issues is to make the default spawn point a safe zone so that when you finally rez you have a moment to scan the map, get oriented to cover points and threats and then take the fight to the enemy. I will tell you this, when I'm looking at the deployment screen and I see a swarm of red dots camped on the default spawn point, I'm smart enough to not deploy into instant death. What's the point? It makes absolutely no sense to spawn into certain death over and over and over again. That's a flawed spawning system and makes playing this game absolutely not at all fun.
Pilgrim Plymco Better Hide R Die 12	Posted - 2013.03.01 15:24:00 - [32] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: Dear players, During todayGÇÖs downtime we applied a hotfix that improved spawn mechanics and added new spawn locations for Ambush game mode with biomass or communication outposts on maps. However, our job is far from over. We are looking for your feedback on this new system for these specific types of maps and we are constantly working on expanding and improving this system to the entire ambush game mode, as stated by CCP Draco right here. Thank you for your cooperation and feedback, we are looking forward to it! The spawning in Ambush is a ton better than it was before. I have already figured out where a few of the spawns are though and they can be camped with a sniper/laser rifle pretty easy. That being said it is still a VAST improvement over the way it spawned before. This is my opinion after 6 games. You guys are on the right track with the spawning now!
Thor Thunder Fist Better Hide R Die 81	Posted - 2013.03.01 15:47:00 - [33] - Quote [quote=Pilgrim Plymco The spawning in Ambush is a ton better than it was before. I have already figured out where a few of the spawns are though and they can be camped with a sniper/laser rifle pretty easy. That being said it is still a VAST improvement over the way it spawned before. This is my opinion after 6 games. You guys are on the right track with the spawning now![/quote] I like the new spawns as well it's nice having 2 fronts colliding and having hell break loose but I would suggest adding to the formula either bullets fired or blue dots killed in said area give - points like having a red dot there
Neb Khonak Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 4	Posted - 2013.03.01 16:52:00 - [34] - Quote The new ambush system has created a single spawn camped cru. Although it was too random, I think the old system was more effective.
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 31	Posted - 2013.03.02 01:53:00 - [35] - Quote This new system of spawning actually made me want to play Ambush again, before, it was stupidly random. Now, people spawn next to each other for the most part. This has pros and cons, and any decent squad can take advantage of the new system quite well: Which is a plus. Go back to the original system, and you lose me as an ambush player. Simple as that.
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 67	Posted - 2013.03.02 09:33:00 - [36] - Quote I love them, playing Ambush is enjoyable now. To be honest i use to avoid that game mode before, because the spawn issues. But is alot more fun now. Thanks CCP. Nice job.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 139	Posted - 2013.03.02 20:29:00 - [37] - Quote Playing the new mode for a bit now and I have a few other observations to offer. First, the battles are missing the ebb and flow of warfare that they once had, the movement of battles to new areas around the maps. Sadly There begins an inherent clustering to the battle, and the two sides are essentially entrenched. While a random player or two might escape to the sidelines it seems to be a rule that once the shooting starts in an area it stays in the same place for the duration of the battle or one entire group is wiped out. At that time a new random spawn is chosen - where all the new clones then cluster and again entrench themselves. Gone are the days of searching for battles, stragglers, posies or even for cover, better placement, tactical advantages, finding teammates to group with, etc. No more do I need to watch my back or try to find enemies or teammates. Enemies spawn across from me, teammates spawn beside me. The randomness and varied placement of the older system helped create variations to the battles, movement, excitement, clustering of small groups and more map wide battles - which i believe were preferable as they made the participant be aware of surrounding, realizing that anyone could be around the corner or spawn somewhere close. Now there is no worry. Once the "camp" has been established neither side seems to move, regardless of the benefit or disadvantage of the positioning as spawning keeps them entrenched to the same space. Ambush feels like a grind and not as exciting as it used to be. Second, while i like the initial spawn outside of the battle area it is a one time deal, no chance to spawn there again. The locked in spawning of forced camaraderie in death and life (forced spawning with teammates whether they live or die) restricts positioning. Other players have offered ideas of more random spawns, choosing where you would like to spawn, or dropping in from the sky with a general area of placement, I feel that all of these ideas could be incorporated in some fashion for a better experience. The randomness of the old spawning gave the player independence. You either had to survive until you found your team or use your new surrounding to position yourself as a lone wolf. Now I have no choice to be apart from the group. It is not so bad that I CAN spawn with my group but I hate being FORCED to spawn with them. When they are being slaughtered my spawning and subsequent death will not help them, I would not choose to spawn there. From observations on the battle map and also from my experience on the ground I would certainly be able to make an educated decision of where I would like to spawn, or at the very least a good place not to spawn. Even if my choice resulted in my death at least it was my choice to begin with. Currently I am forced to spawn with the group - winning or losing - it should still be my choice. An option to choose to spawn with a group or a random placement would even be better than the current situation. I thank CCP for the effort of creating a program, running the calculations, and working to make ambush better. I still feel that there is still work to be done to make the spawning better. I think the new system system is part of it but should not be the whole of it. There is work to be done, it is still incomplete.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2013.03.02 21:33:00 - [38] - Quote Not sure if it's a general bug or related to the new spawn system, but in an ambush match today I spawned inside the red zone, some distance away from the actual red zone border. Don't know if I could have sprinted out of the red zone in time, the match ended before I could find out.
BGoat DUST University Ivy League 7	Posted - 2013.03.02 23:06:00 - [39] - Quote I posted this in another thread, but it really belongs here: There seems to be too much weight being put on spawning near squad/teammates. So much so, that it completely overwhelms the piece of the formula that is supposed to take into account enemy infantry, vehicle and installation proximities. I believe this balance needs to be flipped, so that spawning safely (not near enemies) is given the highest priority. My suggestion for spawn priorities would be the following: 1) Identify possible safe spawn points based on proximity to enemy infantry, vehicles and installations 2) If there are teammates/squad members near any of those safe spawn points, choose the point nearest teammates/squad members (preferring squad members over other teammates) 3) If no teammates/squad members are near any of the safe spawn points identified in step 1, choose the safest available spawn point I really think if the CPP Devs can translate those priorities into the proper weightings in the spawn point formula, the system will work great.
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 323	Posted - 2013.03.03 00:02:00 - [40] - Quote So far the new system is an improvement over the old. However the problems that others have pointed out are likely going to get worse (not better) as more players learn to take advantage of them. The biggest problem is the spawn cluster scenario where one team is forced into a small area and constantly respawning on each other. The expression "like shooting fish in a barrel" comes to mind here. Also the new behavior of spawning players into the largest group of friendlies makes Precision Strikes all the more deadly. I agree with others that less emphasis needs to be made on spawning players next to team mates and more on keeping us spread out and away from reds on spawn. Having to regroup after spawning in is not a bad thing. If any attempts are to be made as far as spawning us close to players it should only be near squad members.

RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 139	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:56:00 - [41] - Quote BGoat wrote: I posted this in another thread, but it really belongs here: There seems to be too much weight being put on spawning near squad/teammates. So much so, that it completely overwhelms the piece of the formula that is supposed to take into account enemy infantry, vehicle and installation proximities. ... I really think if the CCP Devs can translate those priorities into the proper weightings in the spawn point formula, the system will work great. I can certainly agree with this.
RedBleach LeSanglant Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 139	Posted - 2013.03.03 01:59:00 - [42] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: So far the new system is an improvement over the old. However the problems that others have pointed out are likely going to get worse (not better) as more players learn to take advantage of them. The biggest problem is the spawn cluster scenario where one team is forced into a small area and constantly respawning on each other. The expression "like shooting fish in a barrel" comes to mind here. Also the new behavior of spawning players into the largest group of friendlies makes Precision Strikes all the more deadly. I agree with others that less emphasis needs to be made on spawning players next to team mates and more on keeping us spread out and away from reds on spawn. Having to regroup after spawning in is not a bad thing. If any attempts are to be made as far as spawning us close to players it should only be near squad members. I cant tell you how many times I was worried that the reds had a precision strike, it would have been game over in 5 seconds. While it has never happened to me it is a problem.
Alderstaz Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 5	Posted - 2013.03.03 03:28:00 - [43] - Quote Total randomness was actually good for the current maps. Required actually. Adding invulnerability until clone was playable might be better solution. Except for the very nicely designed hills map, all the other maps have key areas that whoever's blob is closer to, should/will win, unless there is some serious imbalance. The randomness(except for whole squads coming in as one player) was needed to counter the design choice. Maps need to change if you only have one spawn strategy. I have no experience with Skirmish due to AFKers... I do however really like the fact that folks are actually able to play together and the different weapon/equipment/roles are finally coming out/playable. Blobs are kinda nice. I'd like this method if the other maps were redesigned.
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 74	Posted - 2013.03.03 14:20:00 - [44] - Quote I posted this in here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61904&find=unread As a response to dazlb72 idea of "spawn on my squad leader". I think i may also work as possible feedback. Quote: "The squad leader can find a "safe" place, for their squad members to spawn. Maybe as an addition to the new spawn system? That will open new tactical options, and make Ambush more appealing to Corporations."
Jericho Crawford Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2013.03.04 06:07:00 - [45] - Quote Panther Alpha wrote: I posted this in here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=61904&find=unread As a response to dazlb72 idea of "spawn on my squad leader". I think i may also work as possible feedback. Quote: "The squad leader can find a "safe" place, for their squad members to spawn. Maybe as an addition to the new spawn system? That will open new tactical options, and make Ambush more appealing to Corporations." This can be taken from Battlefield if you played it basically wherever the squad leader is your squad mates can spawn on you granted there is room and if they are alive, plus you are able to see in a 3rd person perspective to get an idea whether or not its a good idea to spawn on them. Scenario A) Everything looks clear and he seems to be reloading safe spawn Scenario B) Taking enemy fire is in a room with enough cover to hold a few people in it he is currently reloading spawn Scenario C) Running away from a tank I'll stick with something else Something like that would greatly be appreciated. As spawning goes its better but its more of a cluster now a well placed grenade or a random nade can kill 2-3 people intentional or not, you still get that random red spawning next to you or him behind you, but not as bad as it was before as all they seem to do was spawn around you.(Or maybe i was just around their spawn point i dunno) Looking at different spawn systems they have for something like this, its never truly perfect however the added uncertainty adds to the thirll the mode offers not knowing that enemy spawning could be a HMG user or a pistol wielding scout. Though since you lose your dropsuits and such i think a small invulnerability would be nice a 2-3 second invulnerability on spawn could work.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 785	Posted - 2013.03.04 08:01:00 - [46] - Quote Thanks to RedBleach LeSanglant for sparking this idea. In the weighting of the spawn system where threats are taken into account a tally should be made of friendly deaths (or friendly deaths/hostile deaths) within a given area (within a certain time frame) giving it a higher "hostility" rating and thus a lower likelihood of spawn. I believe this would help to maintain the ebb and flow of battle more fully while still retaining some of the positive features of the new system. Cheers, Cross
Panther Alpha Blueberries United 77	Posted - 2013.03.04 10:14:00 - [47] - Quote Jericho Crawford wrote: This can be taken from Battlefield if you played it basically wherever the squad leader is your squad mates can spawn on you granted there is room and if they are alive, plus you are able to see in a 3rd person perspective to get an idea whether or not its a good idea to spawn on them.. Sorry if re-quoting, but i feel like i need to clarify this. I know what the Battlefield games does, but that is not what i mean. ; Squad members automatically spawn in their Squad leader, when using the default "X" spawn. None Squad team members, spawn with the current system. So you have two different groups ; 1- Squad Spawn 2- None Squad Spawn.
Spec Ops Cipher UnReaL. 16	Posted - 2013.03.04 23:13:00 - [48] - Quote I personally don't like the new system, to the point of avoiding ambushes because of it. A raspberry respawned in front of me, then another 4 dropped in next to him. Happens all the time now.
Mortal Maximus KNIGHTZ OF THE ROUND 14	Posted - 2013.03.05 12:44:00 - [49] - Quote Spec Ops Cipher wrote: I personally don't like the new system, to the point of avoiding ambushes because of it. A raspberry respawned in front of me, then another 4 dropped in next to him. Happens all the time now. True, but i mean come on ppl like u, when given the opportunity, would make juice out of us rasberries sometimes. :3
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 232	Posted - 2013.03.05 14:40:00 - [50] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=594660#post594660

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1862	Posted - 2013.03.06 10:36:00 - [51] - Quote Definitely a MASSIVE improvement, but needs work. The system is good, but how things are weighted needs to change. Order of importance should be Enemy vehicle > Enemy infantry > Friendly vehicle = Squadmate > Teammate. Squadmates are already prioritised over other teammates - good move, that one. But it doesn't seem to weigh the threat of enemy proximity to the spawn location as having nearly enough importance. It's WAY too easy to use the default spawn and appear in the middle of a killing field where the entire enemy team has a line on where you and all your teammates are showing up. It's way too easy to take advantage of this scenario when the enemy team gets stuck in this situation. Also, I think there should be a cap on how much weight allies can provide in favour of a particular spawn location, but the same should NOT be true for enemies. Teammates outnumbering the enemy doesn't really make an area safe, because a LOT of players know to look out for a player who's mid-spawn for an easy kill.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 52	Posted - 2013.03.06 19:32:00 - [52] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62321&find=unread
Niccolo deLuce Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1	Posted - 2013.03.07 13:40:00 - [53] - Quote On Skim Junction a couple minutes ago, we had no Uplinks or captured points so it was default for every spawn. I spawned in the exact same corner with red heavies and a shotgunner 4 times in a row, and died before my screen even switched from the overview. Watching from the overview spawn screen, my entire team was dead except for our two tanks who drove to the edge of the map and went afk. Every blue would spawn and die instantly. It was making the entire team spawn in the same place repeatedly until about 45 clones had been used up and we lost. Nobody was alive on our team for longer than 1 second, yet it still dropped us all in the same spot ad nauseum.
Ong Baek Shu Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.03.08 18:11:00 - [54] - Quote I believe the patch fixed the problem on the original spawn point. I'd say 8/10 now I am not spawning in the middle of a pack of enemies on the very first spawn. Seemed to happen very frequently before. What it hasn't fixed on ambushes is that people are learning where the new "random" drop points are and are camping them. Now, for a player that has dropped a portable drop unit, fine. After all you have this blue glowing thing on the map that anybody can see so if an enemy finds it and camps it, more power to them. But, it is rather frustrating that after you've already been taken out legitimately, to die 3-4 more times after that because of being popped as soon as you spawn and before you even have control of your character. Some fixes? Well, I am not a game programmer so I don't know what is possible or what might break the game but I will just toss some ideas out there. 1) Cover for the spawn locations: Some of the places I spawn on the map are out in the middle of nowhere with no cover spots anywhere near me. I am a sitting duck until I have control of my character and by the time I can start running for cover something usually gets me. Is there a way that wouldn't break the game to have a spot that provides cover to spawn? 2) Temporary shielding: Not sure how this could work, but while you are spawning on screen you should not be able to get killed immediately. I'm not sure what kind of delay this should have on it because obviously you can't have a guy running around invincible because you could exploit that. 3) Cloaking device while spawning. Sort of like the shield idea, you can't be seen on the map until you actually are able to control your character and perhaps a second or two after that? Again, this would give you a ninja style approach to get a kill if the spawn point was near the action. I would just like to note that I do like this game. I am new to FPS and really haven't spent any time with one before playing this. It can be fun at times and I know that I am going to get killed because I am just not a good FPS player at this point and time and maybe I never will be. But I don't need help getting killed by insta-death.
Panther Alpha Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 99	Posted - 2013.03.08 23:09:00 - [55] - Quote It seems to work all most perfectly in the "Ambush OMS" mode, as for the maps are bigger, and the spawn points harder to predict. But in the normal Ambush mode, where the maps are smaller, the spawn points are to predictable. I already seen few corps exploiting this in battles. Possible solution ; Make the normal Ambush maps, as big as the OMS ones.
Vin Vicious Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation 30	Posted - 2013.03.08 23:11:00 - [56] - Quote new spawn mech basically says CCP is cool with spawn camping. expect people to start leaving matches half way through
Zhul Varju Templars Old Guard 0	Posted - 2013.03.09 17:06:00 - [57] - Quote Easy solution: Spawn points that are "safe" and can't be camped with multiple exits to cut down on door camps. If CCP wants people interested in playing (and supporting the game with microtransactions) they need to make sure they are having fun. Being spawn camped is NOT FUN. Dying as soon as you spawn and before you can even react makes me not want to play the game at all.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1928	Posted - 2013.03.10 17:33:00 - [58] - Quote When someone's camping a specific spawn location (not an area) - either because your spawn area is the main concentration of your teammates who are all getting slaughtered, or because they know how to play the game's spawning algorithm and know the exact spawn positions well enough to be waiting before you appear, that's a problem with the game. This happens, so it's a problem with the game. When someone's camping a spawn area or a Drop Uplink because they know it's a designated location in which you can spawn, but don't know for sure that someone IS going to spawn there, then your team's job is to realise that point is being spawned and to spawn somewhere else (or bring something to tank a few hits and kill anyway) and re-secure the position. Anyone who repeat spawns on an Uplink or CRU that has a group of enemy Shotgunners standing around it deserves to die. It's the same reason that anyone who spawns on point B in Skirmish when there are no blue dots and 5+ Red Dots is likely to be dead soon. I DON'T like the idea of cloaking or invulnerability for spawning players. At all. It violates the lore and the attitude of New Eden. "HTFU" and all that other good stuff. Those approaches are easier than making a better spawn system, but they won't feel RIGHT for the way the universe is portrayed. The IDEA behind this current system is a brilliant one, but the importance of different elements needs to be reconsidered. I'm sticking by my previous suggestion here. At the moment, I think the game weighs the proximity of enemies and the proximity of allies to each spawn location about equally, then gives a bonus to your squadmates. What it probably SHOULD do is place a higher "spawn here" value on a squadmate than a regular team member, but an even higher "don't spawn here" value on any enemies in the area. This way, if enemies have control over the area your team is spawning into, you WON'T be thrown into a situation where you're surrounded and outnumbered.
Johnny Guilt Algintal Core Gallente Federation 53	Posted - 2013.03.10 20:15:00 - [59] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62321&find=unread added So I went Afk for afew matches and just wached the blue and red dots fight it out and i notice that if one team is stomping the other team and just mob rushing,the losing team just dies in cycles, flips to the other side of the map then get's hit with a obtrial strike because the spawns always spawn in groups,rirse and repeat. That was only the case in Wide open maps with little cover.The new spawn system works "better" in CQC maps(expect the CRUs get camped very often here so nothing even here),there's lots of cover to flank and be sneaky to get away if the fight isnt going your ways;it isnt the case with more open maps like line harvest and mantis peak.
m621 zma Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 22	Posted - 2013.03.11 21:24:00 - [60] - Quote May I please request that you look at removing this 'fix' during the next 'extended down time'? apart from the spawn camping failure this fix has become - it has made the game even more of a boring, predictable, grind.



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