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Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:03:00 - [1] - Quote If a bunch of newbs cried for more SP gain in EVE, you'd chortle, mayhaps even guffaw, then simply ignore them, because you have proven that a slower rate of progression WORKS in an MMO. You decided to shun the status-quoe, and take a risk. well, I'm asking you now, keep that set of morals with DUST 514! Not long ago, you offered to REMOVE the skill cap. An idea that was promptly and unabashedly rejected by a majority of your players. I personally found the notion that CCP would even SUGGEST such a thing rather unsettling. I don't want DUST to go down as yet another casual FPS on the surface. I doubt I speak for myself when I say DUST should resemble EVE more than a FPS. Pacing the game properly, as you've proven, can be extremely beneficial to both the players, AND CCP in the long run, as people will stay around longer, and will stay active with much more dedication. if you decide to cave to this vocal minority complaining that they aren't advancing fast enough, then you will have lost all that is EVE IMO. EVE is about perseverance, and dedication. other MMO's, as well as FPS games are all about casual play, and instant gratification. Please CCP, retain your dignity, and don't cave to the carebears and casuals. make DUST a game like no other FPS, OR MMO! Furthermore, Thank you CCP for bringing DUST to us console users, so that we may feel the presence of EVE without having to turn on the computer!
Bendtner92 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 369	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:05:00 - [2] - Quote Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:07:00 - [3] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. I'll still continue to play skirmish until they fix spawning in ambush.
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:08:00 - [4] - Quote What Orin said. HTFU.
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:10:00 - [5] - Quote Bring back being able to hit the weekly cap in a couple of games, I've grown bored of the game and only want to play a few times a week to keep up with everyone, plus it will pander to the whiney entitled working class so win win.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:15:00 - [6] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. this is such a narrow-minded view, no offence. do you honestly want CCP to make a decision for a core function (SP gain) based on two beta game modes that will probably be completely overshadowed in just a few months? not to mention, when you start having to constantly fight to keep districts (for yourselves, or other benefactors), I think how much SP you can grind and where will be one of the farthest things from your ajenda. unless you intend to focus solely on pub matches forever.
Tailss Prower Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2013.02.10 13:51:00 - [7] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. this is such a narrow-minded view, no offence. do you honestly want CCP to make a decision for a core function (SP gain) based on two beta game modes that will probably be completely overshadowed in just a few months? not to mention, when you start having to constantly fight to keep districts (for yourselves, or other benefactors), I think how much SP you can grind and where will be one of the farthest things from your ajenda. unless you intend to focus solely on pub matches forever. The Sp gain is fine like this and before anyone says anything I only play skirmish and I get more than enough sp a day from it and besides you got a better shot at getting 1000wp in skirmish than you do in ambush so from my view ambush is only good for the corps like imperfects or zion who either calls in tanks in ambush or can predict where they spawn or both either way only a few people per game gets over 1000wp as you need that to get the 1k sp after cap Also Orin you do got a point but some only care about pub matches and soon enough there will be more than skirmish and ambush for these guys to play
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2013.02.10 14:53:00 - [8] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. Play for fun. It is a game
Sete Clifton PSU GHOST SYNDICATE 67	Posted - 2013.02.10 14:58:00 - [9] - Quote I think the bottom line is that CCP has been clear that the current cap system is temporary and not their ideal vision. They plan to refine it in the future (assuming before the release client), so a lot of this bickering (from both sides) is pointless.
Boxoffire Lost-Legion 47	Posted - 2013.02.10 15:04:00 - [10] - Quote Beld Errmon wrote: Bring back being able to hit the weekly cap in a couple of games, I've grown bored of the game and only want to play a few times a week to keep up with everyone, plus it will pander to the whiney entitled working class so win win. You got bored of the game but still lay I just to keep up with others? if your not enjoyingthe game why would you care? o.0

Tailss Prower Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2013.02.10 15:04:00 - [11] - Quote Sete Clifton wrote: I think the bottom line is that CCP has been clear that the current cap system is temporary and not their ideal vision. They plan to refine it in the future (assuming before the release client), so a lot of this bickering (from both sides) is pointless. I know they plan to change it to what they really want it to be but don't get me wrong it is great like this but I honestly don't give a dam what they go with i'll still play dust and ill still play skirmish so they can do whatever they want with the system it won't change what I do
N1ck Comeau REGULATORS OF VALOR Orion Empire 37	Posted - 2013.02.10 15:11:00 - [12] - Quote I like the sp cap now, Maybe if u hit it be able to get like 2000 sp a match maximum so that u can still play
Marston VC SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 92	Posted - 2013.02.10 15:18:00 - [13] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. this is such a narrow-minded view, no offence. do you honestly want CCP to make a decision for a core function (SP gain) based on two beta game modes that will probably be completely overshadowed in just a few months? not to mention, when you start having to constantly fight to keep districts (for yourselves, or other benefactors), I think how much SP you can grind and where will be one of the farthest things from your ajenda. unless you intend to focus solely on pub matches forever. The issue is what things are like right now, not whats going to happen in a few months. But if were going to use your argument as an example lets twist it a little bit. IF SP really doesn't matter that much then why does there have to be a soft cap?? its like you said, in a few months will all be worrying about things like sov warfare so does letting us "no-lifers" make a couple hundred more SP per ambush make that much of a difference?? Facts are facts, most people, upon hitting there weekly cap migrate over to ambush and do that 24/7 grinding that CCP has so discouraged. With the current system nothing is going to stop that, and really nothing should. If i want to put 10 hours of my weekend into Dust, shouldn't i be rewarded for that in game?? makes sense to me, but i understand that some people might not agree with that. So what about our argument being weak and narrowminded??? IMO the argument for keeping the current soft cap is even weaker. The "there gonna get too far ahead of us" argument is BS, and i dont understand how people think removing the soft cap is going to do anything more then even out player distribution.
Beld Errmon Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 479	Posted - 2013.02.10 16:25:00 - [14] - Quote Boxoffire wrote: Beld Errmon wrote: Bring back being able to hit the weekly cap in a couple of games, I've grown bored of the game and only want to play a few times a week to keep up with everyone, plus it will pander to the whiney entitled working class so win win. You got bored of the game but still lay I just to keep up with others? if your not enjoyingthe game why would you care? o.0 Because I know in the future there will be things going on that I will enjoy and I don't want to be 4mil SP behind everyone when those things start to happen.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:14:00 - [15] - Quote First off, this thread isn't just about SP, I am trying to encourage CCP to cease the "casualization" of DUST in general. From SP, to FF, ISK generation, etc. Second, marston, to answer your "twisted" question, SP management is extremely important for the very simple process of managing the speed at which a player can progress through your game, and thus tire of it/"complete" it. certainly anyone with a corp/purpose will stay for the future FW, battles, whatever. However if it only took the average player a month to fit the best gear because they grinded 8 million SP in a month, that new guy will quickly move on. slight exaggeration, but I hope it got the message across. Pacing in an MMO is key, and for the sake of recent threadnoughts discussing the cap, I thought it necessary to reassure CCP that this is their game. They make the rules. CCP needs to start putting their foot down and calling the shots. go with your vision. All I ask is that we get a game that properly portrays the New Eden we've come to know and love. Every brutal, and beautiful detail in-tact. rather than cater the game to a small group of people complaining about pacing 1 month into the open beta (well, for closed chars anyway)
Kesi Raae Kaae Much Crying Old Experts 40	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:15:00 - [16] - Quote Stay strong, keep Vindicator
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears 47	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:23:00 - [17] - Quote I've said it before and I'll say it again: I hope "Dust turns out to be like Arma 2 and Eve got together and had a baby".
Mr Zitro Imperfects Negative-Feedback 417	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:25:00 - [18] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: First off, this thread isn't just about SP, I am trying to encourage CCP to cease the "casualization" of DUST in general. From SP, to FF, ISK generation, etc. Second, marston, to answer your "twisted" question, SP management is extremely important for the very simple process of managing the speed at which a player can progress through your game, and thus tire of it/"complete" it. certainly anyone with a corp/purpose will stay for the future FW, battles, whatever. However if it only took the average player a month to fit the best gear because they grinded 8 million SP in a month, that new guy will quickly move on. slight exaggeration, but I hope it got the message across. Pacing in an MMO is key, and for the sake of recent threadnoughts discussing the cap, I thought it necessary to reassure CCP that this is their game. They make the rules. CCP needs to start putting their foot down and calling the shots. go with your vision. All I ask is that we get a game that properly portrays the New Eden we've come to know and love. Every brutal, and beautiful detail in-tact. rather than cater the game to a small group of people complaining about pacing 1 month into the open beta (well, for closed chars anyway) You do know CCP was planing on making it option 5 for open beta but all you guys did was cried your eyes out? I just want CCP to try out the new sp system like THEY INTENDED TO DO.
Keyser Soze VerbalKint IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 77	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:43:00 - [19] - Quote Simple solution Unrestricted Soft Cap until player reaches 4-8Million SP, im personally say 6. restricted soft cap after(works just like a car's governor limitless acceleration until a top speed is reached and then throttled. really compromise would make this game better and lets us focus on stuff that really matter like fixing the bugs. You've been Diplo-ed
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:44:00 - [20] - Quote meh SP just a grind grind grind fest bring on Planetary sov, LP gains with LP gear to be bought ppl focus so much on SP now because its all there is to focus on atm and ppl become obsessed with SP and nolifing to get as much as possible

omgitsbees Immobile Infantry 8	Posted - 2013.02.10 20:55:00 - [21] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: If a bunch of newbs cried for more SP gain in EVE, you'd chortle, mayhaps even guffaw, then simply ignore them, because you have proven that a slower rate of progression WORKS in an MMO. You decided to shun the status-quoe, and take a risk. well, I'm asking you now, keep that set of morals with DUST 514! Except SP gain has increased like 10 fold since Eve Online launched. It's much much faster than it use to be.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.10 21:01:00 - [22] - Quote Zitro: CCP only opted to remove the cap because "you guys" were crying about the daily cap. (assuming you meant "everyone but me because my bleached anus smells of sunflowers" when you said "you guys"). my point is, CCP should experiment, sure. but they should first and formost stay true to New Eden. This isn't just another FPS man. It has much higher goals in mind. and again, if we keep focusing on SP, I fear this thread will get derailed under false pretences. again, I don't think I'm alone in saying I think DUST should require YEARS of skilling up/playing/experience to be able to use the very best gear. I want to see 5-10 million SP skills, skills that that take a month+ of active + passive to get. it seems some people want everything "now", and are using this sence of spoiled entitlement as an argument. reality check: SP grinding should take a back seat to gameplay. I'd almost prefer a purely passive SP system, then we could just focus on playing. some of us are getting too preoccupied with SP. CCP needs to regulate IMO.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.10 21:04:00 - [23] - Quote Holy crap Numbz, +1 for actually understanding my message. Never thought I'd say those words.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1903	Posted - 2013.02.10 21:33:00 - [24] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. Not if they make it so you can only earn up to 500 SP from Ambush after the cap, since 1-1.5K per 10 minute match is still WAY too damn high.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2013.02.10 23:17:00 - [25] - Quote They have no one to blame but themselves. One of the devs mentioned something about a a game player's pavlovian response kicking in when bad things happen in a game, resulting in said player instinctively avoiding those bad things, in the recent podcast. Well, here we have a skinner box type of situation where we were used as test subjects, more or less, in an experiment to determine the effects of a highly addictive substance known as SP. We were given megadoses of this stuff and then CCP cut us back to a trickle. The resulting demands for more SP are not unexpected. Same thing happens to lab rats. What we have here is a situation where most of us are running around like rats with an addiction problem and it is no wonder cause we were force fed the stuff in huge amounts for so many months. And now CCP is going to turn around and try to say that they are just listening to their fan base when they mention things like removing the SP cap. Who are they really listening to? Rats, that's who. Freaked out addicted rats that would do anything, cannibalize their own mothers, even, for more SP. And who created these monstrosities of the ITSA Beta laboratory? CCP! The vast majority of players do not voice an opinion on forums or really speak out about games that much at all. Maybe because they are sane, healthy, individuals. CCP need to take a step back and make the decision for themselves based on what they want to do with the game. They need to take a good hard look at exactly who it is they are listening to when they say they are hearing it from the player base. As things stand now most days it seems like the rats are running the lab.
Wicked Glory Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 98	Posted - 2013.02.11 00:04:00 - [26] - Quote And then new players don't continue to play the game because in the current framework they're so far behind and uncompetitive if they haven't been constantly capping. But it's not like CCP wants to retain players or anything. And it's not like an FPS needs different game design than an MMO either.
Elrick Mercer Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2	Posted - 2013.02.11 00:18:00 - [27] - Quote Kushmir Nadian wrote: What Orin said. HTFU. Saying that safely in his church tower.
Oxskull Duncarino Shadow Company HQ 165	Posted - 2013.02.11 00:22:00 - [28] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. this is such a narrow-minded view, no offence. do you honestly want CCP to make a decision for a core function (SP gain) based on two beta game modes that will probably be completely overshadowed in just a few months? not to mention, when you start having to constantly fight to keep districts (for yourselves, or other benefactors), I think how much SP you can grind and where will be one of the farthest things from your ajenda. unless you intend to focus solely on pub matches forever. Thanks. My view on the whole whinging about SP gain is the same. Battling to maintain, increase, recover, or create a home district will be one of my driving forces to play and most of the.people I know that play dust think the same. And the contracts to ne taken. Haha, sp progression will be important, but not the most important part by a long shot.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2013.02.11 00:23:00 - [29] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. How would raising the SP attainable via the soft cap not increase the rate of advancement? What alternate method specifically are you proposing which would not alter the rate of advancement but addressed the issue you are trying to raise? Also as a side note none of this even applies until after you've hit your weekly cap. EDIT: DUST Fiend wrote: Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. Not if they make it so you can only earn up to 500 SP from Ambush after the cap, since 1-1.5K per 10 minute match is still WAY too damn high. You know Fiend, upon reflection I think your response may be better than mine.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2013.02.11 05:33:00 - [30] - Quote Wicked Glory wrote: And then new players don't continue to play the game because in the current framework they're so far behind and uncompetitive if they haven't been constantly capping. But it's not like CCP wants to retain players or anything. And it's not like an FPS needs different game design than an MMO either. Dust is not an unending race. We do not need to resolve Zeno's paradox with some SP system. Achilles will inevitably catch the tortoise no matter what sort of SP gain system is put into place. This entire idea that the game is a race is dumb. To put it bluntly. Why is SP good? Because it makes you more powerful. How long does it take to max out one infantry weapon skill branch completely? About a month. How much longer to splash a lot of extra flavor on your merc and maybe some frosting? about another month. What if you are going for vehicles? make it times 2. At that point you are done. There isn't any farther you can go. All the SP in the world isn't going to allow you to get anything higher than assault rifle proficiency 5. End of story. So no matter when any player starts, they can catch up to everyone else in about 2 months. If they focus on investing SP into one area they really want to max out. Almost all of the rest of the SP after that is going to go into branching out or trying different flavors of weapons. So what happens when CCP releases all of the new drop suits and vehicles and weapons? WIll the vets get them any faster than a player that decides to start the day the come out? NO. In fact, the vets will be farther behind because they have all already shot their wads on crap like Suryas. Or whatever those tanks are called. And the new players will get to use their starter pool of SP to head off in any direction they want. Sure, there are core skills. But if a player decides to go Minmatar HAV to the max they will only be a little more than a month behind getting a bad ass Minmatar tank that can go toe to toe with all of the Gallenta and Caldari HAVs already rolling around. And that is it. The sooner this "But you can never catch up in DUST 514" thing is put to rest the better. DUST is not structured like an MMO where the only thing to do is grind and level up where each level you get makes you ever more powerful. So far there are only ten levels max for any given skill path. And then you are done. The real question is whether assault rifle proficiency 5 is better than shotgun proficiency level 5. Not whether 35 million SP is better than 2 million SP. Until we get to buying and flying your own MCC. But that is a different story altogether. The End Game for Dust isn't 48 MCC vs. 48 MCC battles where each player tries to run and gun lone wolf style with their MCCs. At least I hope notGÇª But then again, maybe that would be bad assGÇª And even though prototype dropsuits and a few maxed out modules can give you a slight edge over a type 2 suit with fewer fitting options, the edge is not really that great of an advatage. It is just a really expensive advantage. Player skill will always win out in that match up.

Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2013.02.11 05:39:00 - [31] - Quote Orin the Freak wrote: If a bunch of newbs cried for more SP gain in EVE, you'd chortle, mayhaps even guffaw, then simply ignore them, because you have proven that a slower rate of progression WORKS in an MMO. You decided to shun the status-quoe, and take a risk. well, I'm asking you now, keep that set of morals with DUST 514! Not long ago, you offered to REMOVE the skill cap. An idea that was promptly and unabashedly rejected by a majority of your players. I personally found the notion that CCP would even SUGGEST such a thing rather unsettling. I don't want DUST to go down as yet another casual FPS on the surface. I doubt I speak for myself when I say DUST should resemble EVE more than a FPS. Pacing the game properly, as you've proven, can be extremely beneficial to both the players, AND CCP in the long run, as people will stay around longer, and will stay active with much more dedication. if you decide to cave to this vocal minority complaining that they aren't advancing fast enough, then you will have lost all that is EVE IMO. EVE is about perseverance, and dedication. other MMO's, as well as FPS games are all about casual play, and instant gratification. Please CCP, retain your dignity, and don't cave to the carebears and casuals. make DUST a game like no other FPS, OR MMO! Furthermore, Thank you CCP for bringing DUST to us console users, so that we may feel the presence of EVE without having to turn on the computer! It works in an MMO It does hot work in an FPS MMO.
Kovak Therim ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2013.02.11 05:53:00 - [32] - Quote A few things have already fallen victim to the misconception that Dust 514 is just another casual shooter with an interesting gimmick. The dropsuits, SMG, HMG, and many other things have been nerfed because of the cries from casual players who think they should be able to kill anything 1v1.
Orin the Freak Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 334	Posted - 2013.02.11 11:20:00 - [33] - Quote aighun: +2. you and I seem to be birds of a feather Zekain Kade: How would you know? I've never played an FPS where you actually had to put in serious time, I think I would enjoy it. I think you might have just forgot an "IMO" in your post. besides, I doubt many ppl thought the super steep learning curve of EVE would work in an MMO either. I am challenging CCP to stare adversity in the face once again, and prove once again, it can work!
Kushmir Nadian Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 78	Posted - 2013.02.11 11:30:00 - [34] - Quote Elrick Mercer wrote: Kushmir Nadian wrote: What Orin said. HTFU. Saying that safely in his church tower. Awwww! I still have fans...come on up and find out. watch your step tho... I hear the fall on the way down is a DOOZY.
BattleCry1791 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 116	Posted - 2013.02.11 11:32:00 - [35] - Quote The caps seem to work to balance the no lifers and the working stiffs like myself. My .02.... Once you hit the cap, SP = WP and the booster kicks in with 50% increase. So if guy scores 2K, he gets that 2K which he EARNED and then gets a booster on top of it that he PAID for. This way effort is still rewarded.
Gemini Cuspid Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2013.02.11 11:56:00 - [36] - Quote I'll probably just say it because it's the truth and some are in denial: unlike any other FPS shooter game there really is no way to achieve "the end" of character progression period This is probably a new concept but I, dear ladies and gentlemen will also counter~propose how many of you are also guilty of continuing to play a game even after capping your ability to increase your skills or assets in the game? For those who played Resistance, did you suddenly stop playing only because you finished unlocking every item? Or the majority of other players who played MAG, did you suddenly whine and complain that you vetted in the double-digits, hit 70 and could purchase all the items in the armory and had nothing left to do or did you continue to play? Fact is anyone who complains is not use to this system where you can't just race to the end, create your own "ultimate" setup and feel like that's all there is to it after a while. That's just it really. You may be unhappy that you can't gain more experience having more matches because it's capped but I think it's a risk that is in favor of CCP because in the end the only alternative is having the game endup in the hands of the players who play often enough to remain competitive and pretty much discourage anyone from starting up. You can say "they need to suck it up" or what not but if they're getting shot at with proto weapons and/orshooting at proto suits, they're probably never going to hit cap at that rate because the skill points earned is minimal. Thus we, as a community, end up being an isolated community that can't seem to ever grow or garner more people to join us. Remember MAG? How did it's most coveted feature of deploying over 100+ players in a single match work out in the end when nearly all of the full time players went to SVER and had arguable the strongest weapon in the game? Well there are a few things I remember: no one played Dom after a while and the studio is no longer around that made it now is it? It's not that it was a bad game either, I think it's FRAGO system was far superior to how Dust lets you give commands but they caved in a lot to player demands and then it went downhill where it wasn't fixable as a game nor was there a reason to do so. Players who play longer and more will still have a distinctive advantage in skill points as well as in the experience and learning curve area and this, at times, outweighs any ISK or skill points that you may feel is the goal of a match. If your playing solely for skill points and ISK then yea I can see your disdain of the cap but I'd argue your missing the other elements of the game that make you a better player and enable you to make better decisions. Just my 2cents as this topic seems filled with vitrol at times...
Jump Up Algintal Core Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2013.02.11 14:47:00 - [37] - Quote Bendtner92 wrote: Nobody is saying we advance too slow. We're saying the max of 1k SP is stupid because it makes playing Skirmish worthless. do u play this game for sp, or because it's fun?


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