TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

I favor adding more stats to game and leaderboards for them.

kills per match would also be nice. looking at this along side kdr would help tell if player is aggressively looking for enemy or hiding looking for safe kills.

wp per match and warpoint per death would also be great.

Leaderboards for kdr, kills/match, and total kills for each weapon type would be great. More apples to apples this way.

Leaderboards with revives per match and total revives, spawn in on drop link, ammo restore, hp healed, obj hacked, ect..

The more stats we can see, the harder it will be to fake/boost them, it will leave clues in other stats if we have enough of them.

edit. The current kdr leaderboard is broken, to easy to fake good kdr on get one it. People with good kdr are hard to find on it. I would like to keep the stat, but the leaderboard is useless right now. Needs a play 50 games restriction or something on all leaderboard to prevent alts filling, by restarting a char till good first game puts char on board then retiring char.

Per hour (in match) is muct more telling than per match (short one sided match? low WP) or per death (go shoot installations or players in start, hide until end).

TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

It's just really surprising this coming from you. Are you sick of just shooting a few people with your thale and then hiding back in the spawn?

Your assume that every players spends every day hunched over dust 514 in a dark room. Some of us have actual lives we need to attend too.

Im lucky if I get 30 mins on dust here and there.

So no.

Terrible idea.

KDR is a largely useless statistic on an objectives-based game. I've argued for months that it should be taken off entirely from the leaderboards. Thankfully KDR ranking on after-match results was replaced with WP ranking after my and many others' urges during closed beta.

WP/h and WP/D are much more valid measurements, and encourage people to play the objective, instead of turtling and whoring for kills.. When we get proper reporting on ISK damage cause vs. ISK used, that will give better insight into what really matters in New Eden: ISK and how efficiently you utilize it.

The reason why KDR and other less useful statistics should be removed entirely is that if it is reported, people and corps will use it to rank themselves. It is CCP's job as developers to encourage "correct" gameplay, and in Dust KDR tells much less about someone's mercenary skills than several other metrics.

TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

Your assume that every players spends every day hunched over dust 514 in a dark room. Some of us have actual lives we need to attend too.

Im lucky if I get 30 mins on dust here and there.

So no.

Terrible idea.

TLDR: topic


KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.

Keep KDR and add more stats such as kills and WP per hour logged, WP per death, etc. That way it just seperates the people who generally die less and help the team and the ones how just pad things like KD.

More stats the better

closing your eyes do not make your bad KDR go away. TRUTH.

It's just really surprising this coming from you. Are you sick of just shooting a few people with your thale and then hiding back in the spawn?

Trollsroyce made me go from 1.2 to 8.4 in a single match, I never found him. How is his freakishly good sniping skills an indicator of my skills? I still have no Idea where those shots were coming from

I doubt there would ever be consensus on this, adding wp/h would be good. I would rather have wp/match or wp/death though.

kdr has uses, it just isn't the end all be all stat some think it is.

Isk efficiency would be nice stat to have too. If we had kd4r and isk efficiency we could spot people using proto on newbies to boost kdr and people that take on expensive gear with cheap fits. By how far from matching the two stats are.

WP/H just gets down to who can sit in a tank the longest though so no.

www.dust514stats.com

I disagree with a per hour stat, as time is also meaning less, how many matches did you play, what role were you in, is it total time or played time, what do you do with dropped matches?

Had a talk with CCP Foxfour last night on IRC while he was on a lunch break, they are gonna be chaning the leaderboards at some point, they agree with the concerns about kdr and w/l ratio, plenty of people chimed in and gave ideas. Foxfour also said they would rather have a few boards in game then give us the data and see what we do with it, like what I am doing over at dust514stats.

WP hour is certainly better measure than wp over all or kills over all

Its handy to know how much a person plays, but it doesn't mean they are the best.

WP per hour is the olny true measure of a team player, doing lots of killing, getting objectives, and keeping people alive.

TLDR: topic

The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.

Your missing the point of all the stats.

Grats you have a High KDR, you have a ton of warpoints, but your support is low, this tells me 2 things 1 your not a logi, 2 that I should look into if your squad leader is putting squad orders up, are you following them, is your team working together. niether of these say anything about you as a player. but they are a place to begin a discussion.

Stats in and of them selves mean nothing, that are a reffernce, they give you a point to start a discussion. they are a way of telling how should I talk to this person, in a recruitment situation I would not send a logibro to talk to you, I'd send a assualt or heavy to talk to you. For a corp leader they tell them this guys is a monster at killing people, I want to team him with this logibro, and these two assualt guys so I have a balanced squad.

I push the stats I have because they are all we get. limiting ourselves to just looking at warpoints without breaking it down doesn't help anyone when we have only 4 real stats that the game gives us, I discount KDR because it's a derived stats from kills and deaths which we are also given.

I'm not saying your wrong for asking about more stats, I'm saying your asking for the wrong data points. However in the thinking I have been doing to discuss this with you I spotted one stats I missed out of the data we have and am adding it to my site tonight, thank you.

But please, limit time to a look at how your data has changed over it's length rather than using it as a data point

Edit: As CCP Foxfour said last night Filtering data is filtering data, the data, all of it should be viewed to have meaning as a whole, otherwise you might miss something.

That again is an assumption that killing is the most important thing.

That again is an assumption that killing is the most important thing.

Let me posit a situation.

Let's say Null sec sov matches have no time limit, you can bring as many clones as you can fit in your MCC, and last until your opponents MCC is destroyed. the only way to damage your oppenents MCC is with missle nodes just like we have now.

you enemy has brought in 10k clones, you brought 2k clones.

Winning by clone victory is going to be very hard, if not impossible, your best bet is to take out the MCC, for that you need to take and hold positions.

In this position I want a balanced team, I want 1 hacker 1 heavy, a logi and a assualt. now I know these areas in fitting can overlap, but playstyles they all take a different mentality. Some people can be all four and do it very well, some can only do one no matter how many different fits they have.

How am I supposed to know this if I have 4 different corp battles going on each that can have 24 people on each side in a corp with 400 people. do I only recruit the best of the best killers to try and burn thru 10k clones before they can destroy our MCC,

Different people are needed in different areas.

I am a logi, some of you may have seen me in some matches, my kdr is crap, in the .7 area, but I can pull 1500 to 2500 warpoints in a match while going 0-0 because I can hack, I know where to put Squad orders, and where to drop uplinks and nanohives to make it so my squad can do it's best. so do you want me a s a front line soldier or do you want me standing behind the guy that goes 50-10 making it so he can go 55-2 because I keep him alive and full on ammo.

This game takes all types, to judge them you need stats of all types, I need stats so I can say this guy is a great logi, I need stats to say this guy is a great killer, and I need stats that say this guy can do everything.

Time only matters when you don't have any, if your in that position you didn't do it right.

Want to get that sov flip done in a day or a month?

I'll always take the guy who gets 50-10 in a match over the one that gets 10-0. The first one offsets a ton of team failures, the second one looks better on non-time measured stats. Also, being efficient just means getting more done with the time you have.

K/D does have it's place in Dust, after all clone count is pretty damn important, but there are definitely other, arguably more important, statistics that should be tracked - ISK efficiency and WP/D being the two main ones.

Let's come back to the 10k enemies and 2k allies. Good job to the guy who did killing only and eliminated 50 clones, while dying 10 times. Huge props for getting rid of 0.5% of enemy clone reserves.

I'll use Heinz's example to show a little flaw of this mindset and reinforce his point, because Heinz explained it pretty well already.

Let's come back to the 10k enemies and 2k allies. Good job to the guy who did killing only and eliminated 50 clones, while dying 10 times. Huge props for getting rid of 0.5% of enemy clone reserves.

Now, the merc who went 10-0 could've picked up and healed 200 clones, including the one that went 50-10. That is 10% of your clone reserves.

Question: who is more valuable now?

Given this information, the 50-10 fella who could have accomplished the very same team assists while killing more. One sided assumptions won't reinforce a point. To further expand, lets just simplify my initial example: do you want to take the guy who accomplishes 5 times more in a given timeframe over the cautious guy who accomplishes little but dies a little? When you want to bust an alliance in eve, will you hire Burn Eden to camp a gate or Pandemic Legion to destroy everything they have?

The correct answer is: UDIE and PL are both excellent at their trade. Accomplishments per hour can differentiate their potentials, as it can differentiate the potential of two players.

It is a completely valid point, though, that different stats tracking adds information.

The problem your seeing is the Wolf killing ducks, what happens when your three wolves walk into the jaws on my wolf packs.

Case in point, go play a corp match against the Imprefects, I'll wait.

No?

I know I brought them up, they may not be the greatest people, some of them are good guys, but they work together and will destroy any team of random lone wolfs, because they work with each other, playing off their strenghts and are better because of it

Your never gonna have a 24 man team of lone wolves. in Corp matches you would get rolled.

Your second assumption is that grinding faster is better. not always. Example, let's say you setup 10 corp matches for tomorrow, now you assume 10 minutes to get into the match and 10 minutes to win, then you set each match to start every 15 minutes, to maximise flow without having to do match then match without a break to refit. now let us say you get into a rather nasty match, is taking forever and is gonna run 20 minutes. your now 5 minutes into your next match, are you gonna have your best players drop this match to go hit the other one, you gonna have lesser players run the other match until your good players are avalible? then that match runs long, then your in a cycle of basicly screwed.

If you want to pub stomp and think your great. Fine, but that's not what this game is about, that's not where the stats matter.

WP/H just gets down to who can sit in a tank the longest though so no.

per hour? what?

just make it WP per death

would kills per hour work? no? duh

closing your eyes do not make your bad KDR go away. TRUTH.

IMHO Clone count is completely irrelevant; we are all Immortal.

+1 to remove all referrences to KDR, it's a broken mechanic that encourages the CoD mentality that leaderboards are important and actively discourages Teamwork.

If any of you think that you can assess a player's skills by looking at a bunch of stats, you are sorely mistaken. Yes, they can give a reasonable indication, but stats can never give the full picture; you have to squad up with people to know (qualitatively) how they play.

yea because we all know it's impossible to pad WP