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Discussion: remove KDR statistics, add WP/h

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James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.09 16:59:00 - [1] - Quote trollsroyce wrote: TLDR: topic KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay. The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face. Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it. Avoiding deaths is a part of both ambush and skirmish. Clone count is important, as is staying isk efficient and costing the enemy as much isk as possible. Plus it's easy to debunk players who have a padded KDR, play with or against them.. the ones that really care will resort to falling back and redline sniping so they can go positive. I don't get why people have such hatred towards KDR, I like tracking mine but I'm always pushing the objective and staying active; if I need to go negative to try to make something happen then so be it, but its rarely the case. KDR leaderboards are completely worthless with how they're set up, honestly I feel like only people with over 2000+ kills should be listed on there to get all the padded alts off of it. KDR is a stat that's nice to have and it does have its uses, it should stay. Why not add more stats though? I'd be up for them adding WP/H. If you add WP/H then why remove KDR anyway? You could look at both and tell who the redline snipers who pad their KDR are.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.11 07:10:00 - [2] - Quote Patoman Radiant wrote: Heinz Doofenshertz wrote: www.dust514stats.com I disagree with a per hour stat, as time is also meaning less, how many matches did you play, what role were you in, is it total time or played time, what do you do with dropped matches? Had a talk with CCP Foxfour last night on IRC while he was on a lunch break, they are gonna be chaning the leaderboards at some point, they agree with the concerns about kdr and w/l ratio, plenty of people chimed in and gave ideas. Foxfour also said they would rather have a few boards in game then give us the data and see what we do with it, like what I am doing over at dust514stats. WP hour is certainly better measure than wp over all or kills over all Its handy to know how much a person plays, but it doesn't mean they are the best. WP per hour is the olny true measure of a team player, doing lots of killing, getting objectives, and keeping people alive. Agreed. Anything you do to help the team gives you WP, so finding the rate that WP is earned at is a pretty good indicator of ones worth. Of course we can sit here and talk about how these stats could be wrong, like if I'm playing with my clan I generally guard them while they hack so maybe my WP/H suffers ever so slightly from that & some roles get WP easier than others but hell, no stat is going to be perfect.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.11 07:23:00 - [3] - Quote Why does it matter how much of the WP were gained from kills? I disagree with the stats that you use because it punishes people who are good at killing entirely too much. Yeah, I kill a lot, and yeah, most of my WP is from killing. How is that bad? That's playing the objective (clones), that's clearing objectives for my team, assisting my teammate in a kill or saving them; killing is essential and necessary and to see it being used as a way to gimp a stat simply bothers me. There's also issues with your stats as well because when I play with my clan they know that they can count on me to cover them while they hack, so often times I miss out on WP gained from objective play because I'm making sure they stay alive and complete the hack. Players who consistently put up 40+ kill skirmish matches are screwed by your calculations.. WP/H is raw data, your stats are your opinion on what measures a players worth. Your stats clearly favor certain roles over others, slaying is a role & it does help the team, at least with WP/H killing is also taken into consideration and not as a bad thing. Every stat is going to have a way that someone can manipulate it, or where other roles will pad the stat easier than others. At least with WP/H it's a stat that's dictated by any action that helps the team. You're right though, it's a ratio stat so of course the top of the leaderboards are going to be full of alts that padded quickly and never played again. A simple fix would be keeping track of hours played and using that stat to wipe off the alts and make it so that a character needs 50+ hours of gameplay (in matches) before being ranked on the global leaderboards. That doesn't really bother me as much though because I never care about who is at the top of the global leaderboard, I tend to just pay attention to contacts & corp.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.11 18:09:00 - [4] - Quote Kamiya Musume wrote: Ryder Azorria wrote: K/D does have it's place in Dust, after all clone count is pretty damn important, but there are definitely other, arguably more important, statistics that should be tracked - ISK efficiency and WP/D being the two main ones. IMHO Clone count is completely irrelevant; we are all Immortal. +1 to remove all referrences to KDR, it's a broken mechanic that encourages the CoD mentality that leaderboards are important and actively discourages Teamwork. If any of you think that you can assess a player's skills by looking at a bunch of stats, you are sorely mistaken. Yes, they can give a reasonable indication, but stats can never give the full picture; you have to squad up with people to know (qualitatively) how they play. As skirmish can be won by clone count I'd have to disagree with your assertion that it's irrelevant. I've won and lost skirmish matches by clone count, & it sucks when you're winning by damage done to MCC but your team loses because you ran out of clones. As long as clone count has to do with an objective I see it as a relevant thing. If I'm in a squad with Tryhard514 & Kreashawn we're likely to win most skirmish maps by clone count, though it doesn't matter how we win it because with so many enemies being wiped off the map the objectives are pretty clear and easy to take. Pubs in Dust are so hard A guy who gets 50+ kills is great to have on the team, that's a lot of dead enemies and time the enemy has spent re-spawning and getting back into the action. Plus the fear & rage factor, & it's not like the guy getting so many kills can't hack an objective. I do agree though, the best way is to play with them. Of course, I've always agreed with that. That's why we have a trial period when people apply to PFBHz, our recruitment officers play with them and we share feedback and learn about them and how they play before making them full fledged members. Plus stats are so easily padded in pubs that it's hardly a measure of true skill, I'd rather look at stats from corp battles where it's experienced players vs experienced players instead of the stats boosted from playing against bad players. Of course that still can be padded, but I prefer it.
James-5955 Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 151	Posted - 2013.02.11 18:45:00 - [5] - Quote Sobriety Denied wrote: yea because we all know it's impossible to pad WP Good luck finding a stat that you can't pad one way or another. This is why if people are trying to paint an image of a players worth by stats, then they should look at a collection of stats and not only one. Like if I looked at the leaderboards for kills, and I saw that some guy has 11,000 kills. I might think wow, he's a pretty good killer. Now if I got to see how many matches that person has played, I can find out how many kills that person averages a game.. and might be surprised to see that it's low, the person just plays a lot.

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