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Morathi III
Rebelles A Quebec
57
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Posted - 2013.02.11 13:45:00 -
[61] - Quote
trollsroyce wrote:Ner'Zul Nexhawk wrote:trollsroyce wrote: I'll always take the guy who gets 50-10 in a match over the one that gets 10-0. The first one offsets a ton of team failures, the second one looks better on non-time measured stats. Also, being efficient just means getting more done with the time you have.
I'll use Heinz's example to show a little flaw of this mindset and reinforce his point, because Heinz explained it pretty well already. Let's come back to the 10k enemies and 2k allies. Good job to the guy who did killing only and eliminated 50 clones, while dying 10 times. Huge props for getting rid of 0.5% of enemy clone reserves. Now, the merc who went 10-0 could've picked up and healed 200 clones, including the one that went 50-10. That is 10% of your clone reserves. Question: who is more valuable now? Given this information, the 50-10 fella who could have accomplished the very same team assists while killing more. One sided assumptions won't reinforce a point. To further expand, lets just simplify my initial example: do you want to take the guy who accomplishes 5 times more in a given timeframe over the cautious guy who accomplishes little but dies a little? When you want to bust an alliance in eve, will you hire Burn Eden to camp a gate or Pandemic Legion to destroy everything they have? The correct answer is: UDIE and PL are both excellent at their trade. Accomplishments per hour can differentiate their potentials, as it can differentiate the potential of two players. It is a completely valid point, though, that different stats tracking adds information. True, but i remember you , you got 75-0 in a match lol |
Heinz Doofenshertz
BetaMax.
360
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Posted - 2013.02.11 14:15:00 -
[62] - Quote
The problem your seeing is the Wolf killing ducks, what happens when your three wolves walk into the jaws on my wolf packs.
Case in point, go play a corp match against the Imprefects, I'll wait.
No?
I know I brought them up, they may not be the greatest people, some of them are good guys, but they work together and will destroy any team of random lone wolfs, because they work with each other, playing off their strenghts and are better because of it
Your never gonna have a 24 man team of lone wolves. in Corp matches you would get rolled.
Your second assumption is that grinding faster is better. not always. Example, let's say you setup 10 corp matches for tomorrow, now you assume 10 minutes to get into the match and 10 minutes to win, then you set each match to start every 15 minutes, to maximise flow without having to do match then match without a break to refit. now let us say you get into a rather nasty match, is taking forever and is gonna run 20 minutes. your now 5 minutes into your next match, are you gonna have your best players drop this match to go hit the other one, you gonna have lesser players run the other match until your good players are avalible? then that match runs long, then your in a cycle of basicly screwed.
If you want to pub stomp and think your great. Fine, but that's not what this game is about, that's not where the stats matter. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
164
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:17:00 -
[63] - Quote
Heinz Doofenshertz wrote:The problem your seeing is the Wolf killing ducks, what happens when your three wolves walk into the jaws on my wolf packs.
Case in point, go play a corp match against the Imprefects, I'll wait.
No?
I know I brought them up, they may not be the greatest people, some of them are good guys, but they work together and will destroy any team of random lone wolfs, because they work with each other, playing off their strenghts and are better because of it
Your never gonna have a 24 man team of lone wolves. in Corp matches you would get rolled.
Your second assumption is that grinding faster is better. not always. Example, let's say you setup 10 corp matches for tomorrow, now you assume 10 minutes to get into the match and 10 minutes to win, then you set each match to start every 15 minutes, to maximise flow without having to do match then match without a break to refit. now let us say you get into a rather nasty match, is taking forever and is gonna run 20 minutes. your now 5 minutes into your next match, are you gonna have your best players drop this match to go hit the other one, you gonna have lesser players run the other match until your good players are avalible? then that match runs long, then your in a cycle of basicly screwed.
If you want to pub stomp and think your great. Fine, but that's not what this game is about, that's not where the stats matter.
Your argument is misleading. Assuming a good pace is a completely different thing than recruiting efficient players. An efficient player gets more done in the corp match, thus making it less probable for the match to take 20 minutes. An inactive player makes the probability of failure higher, and the relevant stat to measure is, in fact, wp/h which differentiates an efficient player.
How you set your matches up has little to do with it. Actually, being able to finish them quicker gives you options, whereas taking long with them by default narrows your options. |
trollsroyce
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
164
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:20:00 -
[64] - Quote
As a reminder I'm defending wp/h as a relevant stat to measure when players are weighed. I have not seen one valid argument against this, just fallacies and pointless ad hominems. I'll swap into streetwise discussion and troll people to rage quit the game from here :) |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:31:00 -
[65] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:WP/H just gets down to who can sit in a tank the longest though so no.
Tanks aren't always the best WP machines, even tho they do get plenty of installation +120s on some maps.
Also, WP/h is just as good or bad as KDR when talking about tanks. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:32:00 -
[66] - Quote
crazy space 1 wrote:per hour? what?
just make it WP per death
would kills per hour work? no? duh
Why K/h would not work? On many games there's FPM (Frags Per Minute).
Okay skirmishes might be behind, so to say. But, so what, I say. They are only stats. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
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Posted - 2013.02.11 15:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
Firestorm Zulu wrote:trollsroyce wrote:TLDR: topic
KDR statistics and leaderboard needs to go. The only thing these statistics encourage people to, is not to die. Avoiding deaths leads to chicken kitten gameplay.
The correct replacement is a statistics that leads to active and bloodthirsty gameplay. I suggest war points per hour. Looking at a player wp/h and total wp tells much more of the type than just KDR. It punishes leechers. It rewards top scorers who win the matches for their team. WP/h leaderboards encourage people to do their utmost to melt face.
Start by adding wp/h, then drop KDR if there is consensus for it.
closing your eyes do not make your bad KDR go away. TRUTH.
^ LOL on the post and his likers |
James-5955
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
151
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Posted - 2013.02.11 18:09:00 -
[68] - Quote
Kamiya Musume wrote:Ryder Azorria wrote:K/D does have it's place in Dust, after all clone count is pretty damn important, but there are definitely other, arguably more important, statistics that should be tracked - ISK efficiency and WP/D being the two main ones. IMHO Clone count is completely irrelevant; we are all Immortal. +1 to remove all referrences to KDR, it's a broken mechanic that encourages the CoD mentality that leaderboards are important and actively discourages Teamwork. If any of you think that you can assess a player's skills by looking at a bunch of stats, you are sorely mistaken. Yes, they can give a reasonable indication, but stats can never give the full picture; you have to squad up with people to know (qualitatively) how they play.
As skirmish can be won by clone count I'd have to disagree with your assertion that it's irrelevant. I've won and lost skirmish matches by clone count, & it sucks when you're winning by damage done to MCC but your team loses because you ran out of clones.
As long as clone count has to do with an objective I see it as a relevant thing. If I'm in a squad with Tryhard514 & Kreashawn we're likely to win most skirmish maps by clone count, though it doesn't matter how we win it because with so many enemies being wiped off the map the objectives are pretty clear and easy to take. Pubs in Dust are so hard
A guy who gets 50+ kills is great to have on the team, that's a lot of dead enemies and time the enemy has spent re-spawning and getting back into the action. Plus the fear & rage factor, & it's not like the guy getting so many kills can't hack an objective.
I do agree though, the best way is to play with them. Of course, I've always agreed with that. That's why we have a trial period when people apply to PFBHz, our recruitment officers play with them and we share feedback and learn about them and how they play before making them full fledged members.
Plus stats are so easily padded in pubs that it's hardly a measure of true skill, I'd rather look at stats from corp battles where it's experienced players vs experienced players instead of the stats boosted from playing against bad players. Of course that still can be padded, but I prefer it. |
Sobriety Denied
Universal Allies Inc.
432
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Posted - 2013.02.11 18:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
yea because we all know it's impossible to pad WP |
James-5955
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION
151
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Posted - 2013.02.11 18:45:00 -
[70] - Quote
Sobriety Denied wrote:yea because we all know it's impossible to pad WP
Good luck finding a stat that you can't pad one way or another.
This is why if people are trying to paint an image of a players worth by stats, then they should look at a collection of stats and not only one.
Like if I looked at the leaderboards for kills, and I saw that some guy has 11,000 kills. I might think wow, he's a pretty good killer. Now if I got to see how many matches that person has played, I can find out how many kills that person averages a game.. and might be surprised to see that it's low, the person just plays a lot. |
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whitelightning100
LIGHTNING STRIKES CORPORATION
1
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Posted - 2013.02.11 22:30:00 -
[71] - Quote
the thing with k/d is if you are logi you k/d will suffer where they are picking you up and repairing you more than doing the killing. |
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