DUST Search - Hold onto your horses. NDA, Open Beta, and Commercial Release and Aurum Resets.

Baal Roo wrote:

SoTa PoP wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote:

So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back?

In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game.

This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS.

I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us.

Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info.

And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product.

CCP Frame has already clarified that the open beta IS NOT the commercial launch.

"No more wipes" has absolutely nothing to do with the merc pack, and it is absolutely not in any way obvious that they meant they were also changing the Merc Pack and would not be honoring the product that we purchased.

"They warned you that they were not going to honor the agreement, therefore they don't have to honor the agreement" is just a nonsense argument.

Furthermore, you are conceding that anyone who DOES NOT actively search out this info has a right to complain. So, as far as I'm concerned, you've already completely undermined the validity of "your side" of the discussion. A person would need to actively search out the info in order to find out theterms of the purchase have been altered, in an EXTREMELY FUNDAMENTAL way, to the point that it is basically a different product than the one advertised. Super classy of CCP.

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Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:20:00 - [31] - Quote D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:24:00 - [32] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us. Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info. And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:25:00 - [33] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: It would be nice to get some official word on all of this. Right now CCP's definition of "open beta" seems quite different than what the majority of the gaming community would consider. So any argument over what is "beta" and "commercial release" is kind of pointless since CCP are kind of doing whatever they want and calling it whatever they want. It would have been nice to know about the NDA in advance. Hopefully we will get an anouncement when open beta gets here. In the other thread asking if open beta = commercial release, CCP Frame has said "open beta = open beta". So it seems that they wish to have their cake and eat it to. This is the problem people are having with CCP on this matter. They are being very shady and unclear about what is going on, and how it relates to the products we have purchased. Many people who bought a Merc Pack simply have assumed that, regardless of the other goings-ons in regards to SP resets and such, CCP would honor the description of the product at the time of purchase. It's not a crazy assumption to make. The absurd assumption would be assuming that the product would be directly and obviously changed from that which was presented at the time of the sale without ANY notice of such occuring. Just a, "oh, btw, your Merc Pack will no longer be reset at Commercial Release" post by a guy who ISN'T EVEN AN EMPLOYEE of CCP, on a BETA forum for an as-of-yet unreleased game. A company can't expect to play fast and loose with other people's money and not get questioned about it.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:30:00 - [34] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Baal Roo wrote: D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us. Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info. And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product. CCP Frame has already clarified that the open beta IS NOT the commercial launch. "No more wipes" has absolutely nothing to do with the merc pack, and it is absolutely not in any way obvious that they meant they were also changing the Merc Pack and would not be honoring the product that we purchased. "They warned you that they were not going to honor the agreement, therefore they don't have to honor the agreement" is just a nonsense argument. Furthermore, you are conceding that anyone who DOES NOT actively search out this info has a right to complain. So, as far as I'm concerned, you've already completely undermined the validity of "your side" of the discussion. A person would need to actively search out the info in order to find out theterms of the purchase have been altered, in an EXTREMELY FUNDAMENTAL way, to the point that it is basically a different product than the one advertised. Super classy of CCP.
Smots Ju-Kyu The Sound Of Freedom Renegade Alliance 13	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:36:00 - [35] - Quote Sounds to me like some people used all their fused locus grenades and now want them all back....lol
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 363	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:37:00 - [36] - Quote So are people mad because they lost their AURUM items cause they ran with them and died or are they mad that they bought a whole mess of them that are now just sitting around? If the latter you can just sell them I guess. But I'm sorry if I don't really understand what the confusion is. CCP has always said that we had the final reset with the move to TQ...if you're ignoring the posts made by DEVs in the days preceding the reset and instead you're going to assume the description of an item in the Playstation Store that was posted months and months ago doesn't really seem like that's CCP's fault. I thought CCP made it very clear that the final reset would be the move to TQ by explicitly stating that in various threads on the forums.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:45:00 - [37] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: So are people mad because they lost their AURUM items cause they ran with them and died or are they mad that they bought a whole mess of them that are now just sitting around? If the latter you can just sell them I guess. But I'm sorry if I don't really understand what the confusion is. CCP has always said that we had the final reset with the move to TQ...if you're ignoring the posts made by DEVs in the days preceding the reset and instead you're going to assume the description of an item in the Playstation Store that was posted months and months ago doesn't really seem like that's CCP's fault. I thought CCP made it very clear that the final reset would be the move to TQ by explicitly stating that in various threads on the forums. What, in your opinion, holds more water? A post made on an internet forum, or a legal agreement outlining a purchase made where real life money changed hands? Which would you expect to take precedent over the other? I think most of us assumed the agreement made when we PAID THEM MONEY would be the one we should expect to be kept, not the internet post on a forum people may or may not be inclined to read. Again, the problem is with CCP's inability to communicate even BASIC concepts clearly, and their penchant for playing fast and loose with the money and products purchased by PAYING CUSTOMERS. You don't sell a pre-order product to a customer, and then months later change the most basic tenets of the sale, and not even directly mention that the product has changed... requiring the customer to wade through internet forum posts to try and figure out what is being implied about the product. If they want to change the product, THE LEAST they could do is send out emails and make a sticky here titled "CHANGE TO MERC PACK" that outlines exactly how they have changed the product we purchased, and why they don't believe such change should be a problem. I mean, come on.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:46:00 - [38] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Baal Roo wrote: D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us. Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info. And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product. CCP Frame has already clarified that the open beta IS NOT the commercial launch. "No more wipes" has absolutely nothing to do with the merc pack, and it is absolutely not in any way obvious that they meant they were also changing the Merc Pack and would not be honoring the product that we purchased. "They warned you that they were not going to honor the agreement, therefore they don't have to honor the agreement" is just a nonsense argument. Furthermore, you are conceding that anyone who DOES NOT actively search out this info has a right to complain. So, as far as I'm concerned, you've already completely undermined the validity of "your side" of the discussion. A person would need to actively search out the info in order to find out theterms of the purchase have been altered, in an EXTREMELY FUNDAMENTAL way, to the point that it is basically a different product than the one advertised. Super classy of CCP. If CCP wants to change terminology that's fine - but I don't take one post from one CCP as the expressive opinion. Especially concerning delicate matters like this. But then again - I don't know Frame or his position. But you're right on some things. I can't validate any argument on CCP's side. They played bad business making moves like this without at least some sort of email or mass in game mail or warning.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:56:00 - [39] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: If CCP wants to change terminology that's fine - but I don't take one post from one CCP as the expressive opinion. Especially concerning delicate matters like this. But then again - I don't know Frame or his position. But you're right on some things. I can't validate any argument on CCP's side. They played bad business making moves like this without at least some sort of email or mass in game mail or warning. Thanks for giving a reasonable response. I'm not anti-CCP, in fact, I think they seem like a pretty cool company. I like the game. I like the Merc Pack. I just see this becoming a bigger problem once more people (who aren't forum regulars) start to realize what has happened here. Furthermore, the way they are handling these matters could be indicative of how they intend to handle future similar matters, and if so it doesn't bode well for the future of the game. They need to get these communication breakdowns resolved SOONER rather than later, and this seems like as good a place as any to take a stand on the issue, because it effects REAL LIFE MONEY that we spent on their products.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 01:01:00 - [40] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Baal Roo wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: My only comment is that CCP has stated it was the last wipe before the wipe ever happened. If people spent there AUR unwisely the fault is soley on them. They were warned by numerous threads and they could read announcements. It's the same to those who are going to feel slighted when the new build comes out and a lot of SP may go to waste. "hey guys, we warned you on the internet that we weren't going to honor your purchase (after you already made it), therefore we get to keep your money and don't have to give you the product you were promised" amirite? Want to explain that logic? Didn't realize buying something now made it vanish instantly. Or are you not getting what your purchasing? anyone who didn't manage to parse through this **storm of a forum's half-assed anouncements has no idea that their Merc Pack has changed and they will not be getting it reimbursed at the Commercial Release (which for most, was the point in buying it in the first place). So, there are certainly hundreds of people out there right now spending their Merc Pack items in game for the intent and purpose of continuing to beta test, under the assumption that CCP will be reimbursing those items and AUR in the way it was explained when they bought the product. I'm pretty certain those people are going to be pretty unhappy when they realize CCP has gone back on their promise to refund these items at release, and that they were expected to come here and search out/stumble upon that info to find out such was the case. It's just awful business and ** poor communication.

Gaff Origami ZionTCD Legacy Rising 49	Posted - 2013.01.22 02:09:00 - [41] - Quote Ehhh..l just bought another Merc pack in case it disappears tomorrow. I dont see what the fuss is about. It seemed pretty obvious to me we werent getting AUR back after the Jan reset. I agree that a mass email would have been a nice gesture to explain this to everyone in no uncertain terms but anyone who spent 5 min on the forum should have known better. Just my .02 ISK
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2013.01.22 02:11:00 - [42] - Quote Yet you have CCP Jian saying every build is a release/launch CCP Nullabor who thinks its still a beta and CCP Cmndwang who thinks open beta = release. Someone needs to be running around with a stick at their office setting the story straight.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 02:46:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yet you have CCP Jian saying every build is a release/launch CCP Nullabor who thinks its still a beta and CCP Cmndwang who thinks open beta = release. Someone needs to be running around with a stick at their office setting the story straight. ...and CCP Frame condescendingly says "open beta = open beta" as if we're all idiots for being uncertain. precisely the point I'm making.
FatalFlaw V1 ISK Faucet Industries 76	Posted - 2013.01.22 03:42:00 - [44] - Quote I didn't blow all of my AUR, mostly just got all of the militia gear and a couple boosters, but I can see why everyone would be upset. Regardless, they (CCP), and possibly Sony too may be liable for false/misleading advertising. If CCP and Sony fail to respond, and you feel it is warranted, you can always file a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission. Just FYI for the guaranteed derp post about the "no guarantee EULA" etc.. a company is liable for every claim made by them that sways your decision to purchase their product. They can't put in fine print "no guarantees" and tell you something different on the forum or through advertising. In all honesty they probably would have "released" this game back in November as originally intended if it weren't for a new COD and Halo coming out at the same time. They're probably strapped for cash at this point and if it is "commercial release" I guess they need to show some kind of income from it, right?
Kanen Serran Prototype Technology Corp. 4	Posted - 2013.01.22 04:10:00 - [45] - Quote The main problem here is that everyone who was expecting to get the aurum reset is expecting to keep all of their earned sp and isk they got by using that aurum to pay or boosters or aur equip. If they were to reset that then you would get to essentially use twice what you purchased once. So here's my proposal. To keep things fair if you want your aurum reset you will also have to have your char reset again....deal?
Mirana Cheshire Forgotten Militia 20	Posted - 2013.01.22 04:53:00 - [46] - Quote so let me get this straight: you want back your AUR and items AND also the sp and isk you earned for using the said aur and items after the last reset? I dont know which is worse, this or the people who bought ps3's after the psn hack and wanting the free games that was given to the affected psn users
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2013.01.22 04:53:00 - [47] - Quote I've got it, everyone who wants their AUR back should get it. Everyone who feels perfectly fine with their purchases will not. Then everyone wins.

CCP Frame C C P C C P Alliance 470	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:20:00 - [48] - Quote Hello guys, Just a quick clarification: there will be no more resets of any kind since we fully moved to Tranquility. The description that you see on AUR items in the marketplace right now will be removed during todayGÇÖs Open Beta downtime to reflect this. Thank you.

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:37:00 - [49] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: Hello guys, Just a quick clarification: there will be no more resets of any kind since we fully moved to Tranquility. The description that you see on AUR items in the marketplace right now will be removed during todayGÇÖs Open Beta downtime to reflect this. Thank you. This STILL doesn't answer the question clearly. All I'm hearing is "yes, you are right. too bad, we're removing the evidence."
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:40:00 - [50] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: CCP Frame wrote: Hello guys, Just a quick clarification: there will be no more resets of any kind since we fully moved to Tranquility. The description that you see on AUR items in the marketplace right now will be removed during todayGÇÖs Open Beta downtime to reflect this. Thank you. This STILL doesn't answer the question clearly. All I'm hearing is "yes, you are right. too bad, we're removing the evidence." lmfao! I'm pretty sure to make any purchases on the PSN you have to abide by rules of terms and contracts - and part of it is subject to change. Pretty dirty CCP. The very least you could do is publicly apologize for not being better communicators over such an obviously important topic.

Centurion mkII SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 10	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:48:00 - [51] - Quote Very thankful there is no more resets
ExRDV Pilot Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 8	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:49:00 - [52] - Quote tbh if you are not happy just send em petition to GMs, forum rage wont give you anything :D and txh for reply
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 313	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:49:00 - [53] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: CCP Frame wrote: Hello guys, Just a quick clarification: there will be no more resets of any kind since we fully moved to Tranquility. The description that you see on AUR items in the marketplace right now will be removed during todayGÇÖs Open Beta downtime to reflect this. Thank you. This STILL doesn't answer the question clearly. All I'm hearing is "yes, you are right. too bad, we're removing the evidence." While I'm fine with no more resets I can understand people getting upset about the technical details here. The item description in the PSN store was part of a purchase agreement "this is what you are buying". Changing the item description after a customer has made a purchase is shady at best. This was not an answer I was expecting from CCP.
Kay High ZionTCD Legacy Rising 86	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:56:00 - [54] - Quote get your heads outo f your butts people. This isn't even the topic that IronWolf started. I accepted that final reset is finale reset. I got everything that CCP promissed us in the merc pack and more. When I got the pack I only got 4k arum then it got buffed to 40k in a month. I got the things I asked for as well as 2 sets of Skinweaves, a 'Exile' assult Rifle and 25 'Quafe' VK0 Scout suits. I think that this is an amazing deal for playing a FREE game. I got into the beta for free and gave the code I got from the Pack to my brother and we have fun playing the game. When I bought the Merc pack I didn't expect to have resets that allowed me to play with aurum weapons and dropsuits. Get over yourselves and play the game. CCP honored my agreement. Take a few seconds and think if they have honored your's. If you respond to this comment then it is obvious that they did honor it.
ExRDV Pilot Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 8	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:57:00 - [55] - Quote sounds like sony has to change that since u buy stuff through sony anyway? just send em petition/ticket i guess. im happy with my aur purchases so far so im fine anyway Kay High wrote: get your heads outo f your butts people. This isn't even the topic that IronWolf started. I accepted that final reset is finale reset. I got everything that CCP promissed us in the merc pack and more. When I got the pack I only got 4k arum then it got buffed to 40k in a month. I got the things I asked for as well as 2 sets of Skinweaves, a 'Exile' assult Rifle and 25 'Quafe' VK0 Scout suits. I think that this is an amazing deal for playing a FREE game. I got into the beta for free and gave the code I got from the Pack to my brother and we have fun playing the game. When I bought the Merc pack I didn't expect to have resets that allowed me to play with aurum weapons and dropsuits. Get over yourselves and play the game. CCP honored my agreement. Take a few seconds and think if they have honored your's. If you respond to this comment then it is obvious that they did honor it. ^ word
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Legacy Rising 404	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:18:00 - [56] - Quote Kay High wrote: get your heads outo f your butts people. This isn't even the topic that IronWolf started. I accepted that final reset is finale reset. I got everything that CCP promissed us in the merc pack and more. When I got the pack I only got 4k arum then it got buffed to 40k in a month. I got the things I asked for as well as 2 sets of Skinweaves, a 'Exile' assult Rifle and 25 'Quafe' VK0 Scout suits. I think that this is an amazing deal for playing a FREE game. I got into the beta for free and gave the code I got from the Pack to my brother and we have fun playing the game. When I bought the Merc pack I didn't expect to have resets that allowed me to play with aurum weapons and dropsuits. Get over yourselves and play the game. CCP honored my agreement. Take a few seconds and think if they have honored your's. If you respond to this comment then it is obvious that they did honor it. +1. o7
Aotherea Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 29	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:28:00 - [57] - Quote Kay High wrote: get your heads outo f your butts people. This isn't even the topic that IronWolf started. I accepted that final reset is finale reset. I got everything that CCP promissed us in the merc pack and more. When I got the pack I only got 4k arum then it got buffed to 40k in a month. I got the things I asked for as well as 2 sets of Skinweaves, a 'Exile' assult Rifle and 25 'Quafe' VK0 Scout suits. I think that this is an amazing deal for playing a FREE game. I got into the beta for free and gave the code I got from the Pack to my brother and we have fun playing the game. When I bought the Merc pack I didn't expect to have resets that allowed me to play with aurum weapons and dropsuits. Get over yourselves and play the game. CCP honored my agreement. Take a few seconds and think if they have honored your's. If you respond to this comment then it is obvious that they did honor it. +2
Kanen Serran Prototype Technology Corp. 4	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:33:00 - [58] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: I've got it, everyone who wants their AUR back should get it. Everyone who feels perfectly fine with their purchases will not. Then everyone wins. Well I didn't spend my Aur stupidly so no problem with that here but as I said, you get our aurum reset you get your char reset, otherwise you're getting the advantage of aurum boosters twice without paying for it.
jackbubu United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 24	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:44:00 - [59] - Quote Man if only CCP announced everywhere that there is not going to be anymore resets after the 10th january.. OH WAIT THEY DID how about you keep up with the pace
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:46:00 - [60] - Quote Just thought of something. Me and several others didn't spend our AUR because we were aware of CCP doing this long before now. Where does that put us if they get reimbursed? I demand a "Good job for listening" package if it happens :D



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