DUST Search - Hold onto your horses. NDA, Open Beta, and Commercial Release and Aurum Resets.

SoTa PoP wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote:

So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back?

In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game.

This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS.

I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us.

Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info.

And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.21 22:40:00 - [1] - Quote Says you. it's sad that they don't post this information for the rest of us to see first hand. If they intended to change the Merc Pack on us, they could have at least told us BEFORE hand, rather than telling us after the fact. A sticky or something saying "btw, you will no longer be getting the Merc pack items back at release" would have sufficed. Of course, then people would have thrown a fit and demanded refunds, so better to just not tell anyone, right?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.21 23:13:00 - [2] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Look forward to my petitions, and a full refund from SOE if necessary. Not likely to happen, as with most digital sales they're all final. Most they would do is tell you to tell ccp to restore bought items. Fair enough, CCP restoring my items after commercial release is officially announced is all I want. Yeah, it's pretty simple really. All they have to do is actually give us what we paid for. Which is the full Merc pack AT COMMERCIAL RELEASE. Does no one else remember thread after thread and comment after comment about how the Merc Pack was there so that we could pre-order items for the official commercial release? I believe it was the standard response to the accusation that CCP was charging people for a spot in a closed beta. Well, I guess we now see who was right all along. honestly, what bothers me the most, is that I was one of the people defending the Merc Pack, and now CCP has made a liar and a fool out of me. It's gonna make it that much harder for me to trust them next time, and MUCH less likely to actually spend money on AUR and items in the future.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:14:00 - [3] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: My only comment is that CCP has stated it was the last wipe before the wipe ever happened. If people spent there AUR unwisely the fault is soley on them. They were warned by numerous threads and they could read announcements. It's the same to those who are going to feel slighted when the new build comes out and a lot of SP may go to waste. "hey guys, we warned you on the internet that we weren't going to honor your purchase (after you already made it), therefore we get to keep your money and don't have to give you the product you were promised" amirite?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:20:00 - [4] - Quote D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:25:00 - [5] - Quote Moonracer2000 wrote: It would be nice to get some official word on all of this. Right now CCP's definition of "open beta" seems quite different than what the majority of the gaming community would consider. So any argument over what is "beta" and "commercial release" is kind of pointless since CCP are kind of doing whatever they want and calling it whatever they want. It would have been nice to know about the NDA in advance. Hopefully we will get an anouncement when open beta gets here. In the other thread asking if open beta = commercial release, CCP Frame has said "open beta = open beta". So it seems that they wish to have their cake and eat it to. This is the problem people are having with CCP on this matter. They are being very shady and unclear about what is going on, and how it relates to the products we have purchased. Many people who bought a Merc Pack simply have assumed that, regardless of the other goings-ons in regards to SP resets and such, CCP would honor the description of the product at the time of purchase. It's not a crazy assumption to make. The absurd assumption would be assuming that the product would be directly and obviously changed from that which was presented at the time of the sale without ANY notice of such occuring. Just a, "oh, btw, your Merc Pack will no longer be reset at Commercial Release" post by a guy who ISN'T EVEN AN EMPLOYEE of CCP, on a BETA forum for an as-of-yet unreleased game. A company can't expect to play fast and loose with other people's money and not get questioned about it.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:30:00 - [6] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Baal Roo wrote: D'Finn Rhedlyne wrote: So basically people spent their AUR on, let's say 500 Blindfires, to get themselves an early boost and now they are pizzed because they can't get their AUR back? In essense, yes, but only because CCP explicity sold the Merc Pack to us under this arrangement. It stated in no uncertain terms, that we would get all of the Merc Pack items replenished at the Commercial Release of the game. This is an instance though where Hanlon's Razor should be applied: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" I don't think anyone here thinks they have done this on purpose, regardless of the strawman arguments being lobbed at us. What's happening is, CCP is dropping the ball and failing to communicate clearly and effectively with THEIR PAYING CUSTOMERS. I don't see why it's unreasonable for people to expect CCP to honor the purchase agreement they made with us. Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info. And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product. CCP Frame has already clarified that the open beta IS NOT the commercial launch. "No more wipes" has absolutely nothing to do with the merc pack, and it is absolutely not in any way obvious that they meant they were also changing the Merc Pack and would not be honoring the product that we purchased. "They warned you that they were not going to honor the agreement, therefore they don't have to honor the agreement" is just a nonsense argument. Furthermore, you are conceding that anyone who DOES NOT actively search out this info has a right to complain. So, as far as I'm concerned, you've already completely undermined the validity of "your side" of the discussion. A person would need to actively search out the info in order to find out theterms of the purchase have been altered, in an EXTREMELY FUNDAMENTAL way, to the point that it is basically a different product than the one advertised. Super classy of CCP.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:45:00 - [7] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: So are people mad because they lost their AURUM items cause they ran with them and died or are they mad that they bought a whole mess of them that are now just sitting around? If the latter you can just sell them I guess. But I'm sorry if I don't really understand what the confusion is. CCP has always said that we had the final reset with the move to TQ...if you're ignoring the posts made by DEVs in the days preceding the reset and instead you're going to assume the description of an item in the Playstation Store that was posted months and months ago doesn't really seem like that's CCP's fault. I thought CCP made it very clear that the final reset would be the move to TQ by explicitly stating that in various threads on the forums. What, in your opinion, holds more water? A post made on an internet forum, or a legal agreement outlining a purchase made where real life money changed hands? Which would you expect to take precedent over the other? I think most of us assumed the agreement made when we PAID THEM MONEY would be the one we should expect to be kept, not the internet post on a forum people may or may not be inclined to read. Again, the problem is with CCP's inability to communicate even BASIC concepts clearly, and their penchant for playing fast and loose with the money and products purchased by PAYING CUSTOMERS. You don't sell a pre-order product to a customer, and then months later change the most basic tenets of the sale, and not even directly mention that the product has changed... requiring the customer to wade through internet forum posts to try and figure out what is being implied about the product. If they want to change the product, THE LEAST they could do is send out emails and make a sticky here titled "CHANGE TO MERC PACK" that outlines exactly how they have changed the product we purchased, and why they don't believe such change should be a problem. I mean, come on.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 00:56:00 - [8] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: If CCP wants to change terminology that's fine - but I don't take one post from one CCP as the expressive opinion. Especially concerning delicate matters like this. But then again - I don't know Frame or his position. But you're right on some things. I can't validate any argument on CCP's side. They played bad business making moves like this without at least some sort of email or mass in game mail or warning. Thanks for giving a reasonable response. I'm not anti-CCP, in fact, I think they seem like a pretty cool company. I like the game. I like the Merc Pack. I just see this becoming a bigger problem once more people (who aren't forum regulars) start to realize what has happened here. Furthermore, the way they are handling these matters could be indicative of how they intend to handle future similar matters, and if so it doesn't bode well for the future of the game. They need to get these communication breakdowns resolved SOONER rather than later, and this seems like as good a place as any to take a stand on the issue, because it effects REAL LIFE MONEY that we spent on their products.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 01:01:00 - [9] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Baal Roo wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: My only comment is that CCP has stated it was the last wipe before the wipe ever happened. If people spent there AUR unwisely the fault is soley on them. They were warned by numerous threads and they could read announcements. It's the same to those who are going to feel slighted when the new build comes out and a lot of SP may go to waste. "hey guys, we warned you on the internet that we weren't going to honor your purchase (after you already made it), therefore we get to keep your money and don't have to give you the product you were promised" amirite? Want to explain that logic? Didn't realize buying something now made it vanish instantly. Or are you not getting what your purchasing? anyone who didn't manage to parse through this **storm of a forum's half-assed anouncements has no idea that their Merc Pack has changed and they will not be getting it reimbursed at the Commercial Release (which for most, was the point in buying it in the first place). So, there are certainly hundreds of people out there right now spending their Merc Pack items in game for the intent and purpose of continuing to beta test, under the assumption that CCP will be reimbursing those items and AUR in the way it was explained when they bought the product. I'm pretty certain those people are going to be pretty unhappy when they realize CCP has gone back on their promise to refund these items at release, and that they were expected to come here and search out/stumble upon that info to find out such was the case. It's just awful business and ** poor communication.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 02:46:00 - [10] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Yet you have CCP Jian saying every build is a release/launch CCP Nullabor who thinks its still a beta and CCP Cmndwang who thinks open beta = release. Someone needs to be running around with a stick at their office setting the story straight. ...and CCP Frame condescendingly says "open beta = open beta" as if we're all idiots for being uncertain. precisely the point I'm making.

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 05:37:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: Hello guys, Just a quick clarification: there will be no more resets of any kind since we fully moved to Tranquility. The description that you see on AUR items in the marketplace right now will be removed during todayGÇÖs Open Beta downtime to reflect this. Thank you. This STILL doesn't answer the question clearly. All I'm hearing is "yes, you are right. too bad, we're removing the evidence."
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 06:49:00 - [12] - Quote Kanen Serran wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: I've got it, everyone who wants their AUR back should get it. Everyone who feels perfectly fine with their purchases will not. Then everyone wins. Well I didn't spend my Aur stupidly so no problem with that here but as I said, you get our aurum reset you get your char reset, otherwise you're getting the advantage of aurum boosters twice without paying for it. This was the offer, if you don't like it, take it up with CCP. They offered it, we bought it, now they realize it was a bad idea and just keep our money. And now the counter-argument being made is that, not only should we get screwed if we don't ask for a refund, but if we DO we lose all of our skill points? Why does this seem fair to you people?
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 07:16:00 - [13] - Quote Kanen Serran wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Kanen Serran wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: I've got it, everyone who wants their AUR back should get it. Everyone who feels perfectly fine with their purchases will not. Then everyone wins. Well I didn't spend my Aur stupidly so no problem with that here but as a I said, you get our aurum reset you get your char reset, otherwise you're getting the advantage of aurum boosters twice without paying for it. This was the offer, if you don't like it, take it up with CCP. They offered it, we bought it, now they realize it was a bad idea and just keep our money. And now the counter-argument being made is that, not only should we get screwed if we don't ask for a refund, but if we DO we lose all of our skill points? Why does this seem fair to you people? no you got absolutely everything you paid for. you get to use the aurum how ever you see fit. what noc is asking for is that he get to use up all the aur he has now on boosters/gear etc and gaing sp/isk off of it, then have it all restored at a later date so that he can use it a second time. explain to me how that logic Again, take it up with CCP, it's not MY problem that their offer was illogical.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.22 21:46:00 - [14] - Quote Arramakaian Eka wrote: semperfi1999 wrote: Did I summarize this correctly? No. You summarized it pretty much the opposite of what we've been discussing for four pages. Quote: This definitely appears to be unethical behavior on the part of the gamer....who is just trying to complain about terms being used by CCP because CCP doesnt want new players to look at this as the final release since they are still going to be doing alot of changes. It's definitely unethical behavior, but not from players; from CCP. This is only until they clarify the terms and don't try to retroactively change advertised features - namely refunding AUR at commercial launch. Open beta is open beta, not commercial launch, no matter what CCP fanbois claim. Right now it looks like they're trying to pull a bait and switch, and not delivering on their promise. Exactly. Semperfi's post is hilariously ironic. He's attributing CCP's behavior to those of us calling CCP out on this.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2013.01.23 00:20:00 - [15] - Quote Need Some Triage wrote: SoTa PoP wrote: Our side of the argument is simple: you were warned there were no more wipes, which obviously ment no more AUR reimbursements. The only people who have a right to complain are the ones who don't use the forums or actively seek dust info. And commercial launch is when a game goes public - never really states a completed product. This. Anyone who disagrees are ***** idiots, read the dev posts, they said this will be last reset; Why do you expect to boost yourself with merc pack aur and then get the aur back, and yet not sp reset at some later "release"? Winscar Shinobi wrote:** Terms say CCP has to give us all out AUR back on commercial release (which would be TODAY if open beta is release) OR they have to give equal value in compensation (so they have to give you 20$ in game content if you bought the merc pack) that is legally binding and there is no way around it. You clearly didn't read the terms of use that got spit out at you everytime you got onto the game for months. They have the right to change the game at any time for any reason with no notice. feel free to link to the post in which the devs announced that they were changing the terms of the Merc Pack.