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Cyris Fortune
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 03:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Is this money put up by the dust corp or the eve corp in FW?
If the moneys are place by a eve corp in FW then logic would state that they choose the dust corp they wish to use. Now here is my idea. Gal fed vs Dari, A gal fed eve corp in FW post up a contract against a district held by Dari. This gal fed eve corp choices ZTCD. The Dari FW corps are notified of a contested district with a deployment timer. The Dari FW corps then have 2 options.
1) timer runs out and contract is posted by a NPC corp from the Dari FW. 2) a eve player controlled corp in FW fighting for Dari posts a contract up and chooses a Dust corp they wish to use. (In the event of a no show by either side the spare slots in game are filled by "quick battle" players. The money however is still lost from eve corps contracts)
Winner gets all (money and spoils of war) loser goes with nothing.
I think a 10-15 minute timer would allow enough time to organise and deploy.
But I missed the whole of the last build so I might be talking out my brown hat. If the contract system is like as Zion says I think it's open to way to much exploitation and all if CCP's hardwork will be judged as rat cr4p because of a flawed mechanic. |
Zion Shad
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
1620
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 04:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
The FW Contracts are done by NPC but its where both team put the same amount of ISK for collateral (like 1 mill each) and then winner takes all. So its simply gambling.
ZionTCD is being payed by Villore Accords in Gallente FW to take over districts on Dust. In the system of xxxx we are taking Districts help to help our employers take the system. The System started at -50% and we have worked it down to -36%. When we finish it will be +%50 for our employers and to take that system. The ISK is being payed to our EVE side and a % is being stored for Dust once transfers are allowed. |
Leither Yiltron
KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION
417
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Posted - 2013.01.11 05:42:00 -
[33] - Quote
I mean, one of the biggest problems is not being able to point the contracts where we want them to be in space. |
Enji Elric
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears
176
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Posted - 2013.01.11 05:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:Quote:Does the DUST 514 mercenary's corporation have to enroll in FW to accept these contracts?The DUST merc's corporation does NOT have to be enrolled in FW to accept these contracts. DUST CEOs/Directors can accept a contract from any faction at any time (even if the EVE side of their corp is enrolled in FW on the other side or if the corp has bad standings with that faction! A true mercenary fights for the highest bidder) Link MECH ASSAULT 2: LONE WOLF for Xbox featured Conquest mode where each battle was part of an overall intergalactic war that transpired online. Conquest mode allowed players and clans to join one of five warring Houses: Kurita, Liao, Davion, Steiner, and Marik (Much like todayGÇÖs EVE Faction Warfare), but the game mechanic was highly flawed in that planets could only be captured if there was an attacking team and a defending team. Ultimately players found it easier to defend a planet by never accepting to defend it at all, leaving the attackers to become board and leave empty handed. So the side that lost was the one that chooses to defend. The current system in dust is a little more flawed in the fact that both this same contract system exhibits this same flaw and that you are not bound by one faction or swayed by Capsuleers. This causes random battles for districts with no side really gaining anything due to the fact we only use the contracts to war other corps over doing it for the FW Sov effect. We are just Gamblers and not true Merc's in this current System. I put up my cash and you put up yours. Winner takes all and the house get some. ZionTCD has chosen to only take attacking contracts and limit the amount of defending contracts we take on. This will benefit our capsuleer ally's more by taking advantage of this flaw and giving them a lag up on the District control in eve. Since they won't lose districts due to the fact no one takes the defense contacts it will only be a matter of time that Gallente and Minmatar will own every planet in FW until this system is fixed We ask all our ally's to take the same stance as we are so this issue will be addressed quicker
We have yet to actually ENTER FW
so who is to say that you think you never have to defend which mean you keep what you kill....
the way the battle system works atm my squad can Q^ and enter a battle with no enemies and win without ever seeing an enemy
so if you don't show up and fight I take yer stuff |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
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Posted - 2013.01.11 05:52:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:The FW Contracts are done by NPC but its where both team put the same amount of ISK for collateral (like 1 mill each) and then winner takes all. So its simply gambling.
ZionTCD is being payed by Villore Accords in Gallente FW to take over districts on Dust. In the system of xxxx we are taking Districts help to help our employers take the system. The System started at -50% and we have worked it down to -36%. When we finish it will be +%50 for our employers and to take that system. The ISK is being payed to our EVE side and a % is being stored for Dust once transfers are allowed.
u just now figured this out? also lol @ deliberately losing to help gallente...smh |
Duke Noobiam
Free Kandee Covert Intervention
0
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Posted - 2013.01.11 06:05:00 -
[36] - Quote
I think CCP should force corporations to defend.
If a corporation refuses to issue a contract to defend or if its players are not playing at the time, the defending squad could be built from players who are just looking for a quick game or from players from NPC corps. This would likely require that these NPC corps exist as mercenary corps in DUST only.
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Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 06:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Could someone please clarify how ZionTCD is losing on purpose |
Zion Shad
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
1620
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 06:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Vermaak Doe wrote: Could someone please clarify how ZionTCD is losing on purpose
We are not. We are doing attack contracts only, so we are trying to win. But if we lose, then all we lose is like 100k ISK and never any district. So the defenders have more to lose.
The 100 k means nothing though we are already payed for today. Will be payed more again |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 06:28:00 -
[39] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:Vermaak Doe wrote: Could someone please clarify how ZionTCD is losing on purpose We are not. We are doing attack contracts only, so we are trying to win. But if we lose, then all we lose is like 100k ISK and never any district. So the defenders have more to lose. The 100 k means nothing though we are already payed for today. Will be payed more again After reading this, I've noticed I need to keep better tabs on your corp as when I last checked you weren't in a militia. Unfortunately, I've been preoccupied with more pressing matters and as much as I would love to be in the same alliance as you (especially considering I would perfer the gallente side over any other faction), I doubt Quickgloves would put his reputation on the line for another corp that isn't formally on our side. I really think you should try to convince him to align with your corp. |
crazy space 2100046106
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 06:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Strange system for sure. Id like to see attacks only be issued by Fw corps. Remember these are eve and dust players in the same corperations. Now what is like to see is defence contracts to cost no isk, and be defendable by anyone. This way fw players can put up defence contracts asking for mercs to defend. These could be taken up by random players or merc corps, or fw corps. By only having the attacker risk isk, the defense doesn't risk losing isk, they just risk not getting paid if the lose. The winner gets the total isk pot.
Only let corps involved in fw start attack contacts, let anyone defend. Let the anyone in the defending militia put up an isk reward for successful defence. This means the more isk you put up the more defence you can muster. Or you could have people defend for free. But the attacker always risks isk. But only the offence has to put money in the pot. More money by the defence is just to sweeten the deal to attract people willing to defend. If they lose it won't cost the mercs a penny. |
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Zion Shad
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
1620
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 07:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
@Enji Elric: We can effect FW Sov already it was tested today. CCP has stated we do not enter a side but hose contract that u use to fight Corp Battle have an effect on EvE online |
Enji Elric
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears
176
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 08:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:@Enji Elric: We can effect FW Sov already it was tested today. CCP has stated we do not enter a side but hose contract that u use to fight Corp Battle have an effect on EvE online for testing purpose it is this way.... I wouldn't expect it to stay that way for long... |
Cyris Fortune
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 09:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Can they not set the contract system like they do with missions in eve. So a Eve corp (NPC or otherwise) posts a contract up. Say 1mill isk for a dust corp to accept it they need to put up collateral like 10%. So the dust corp puts in 100k if they complete the contract they are payed the contract payment and their collateral is returned. If they lose well they lose their collateral, no contract payment is made. They could how ever allow the eve corps to choose to pay a % of the contract if their mercs lose...... or not.
For those who don't know to do missions in eve you have to put up collateral isk. If you fail you lose the isk. Bigger collateral is payed four higher level missions, but the rewards are greater also.
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 11:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Cyris Fortune wrote:Can they not set the contract system like they do with missions in eve. So a Eve corp (NPC or otherwise) posts a contract up. Say 1mill isk for a dust corp to accept it they need to put up collateral like 10%. So the dust corp puts in 100k if they complete the contract they are payed the contract payment and their collateral is returned. If they lose well they lose their collateral, no contract payment is made. They could how ever allow the eve corps to choose to pay a % of the contract if their mercs lose...... or not.
For those who don't know to do missions in eve you have to put up collateral isk. If you fail you lose the isk. Bigger collateral is payed four higher level missions, but the rewards are greater also.
That's how it should work i agree. At the moment, it makes absolutely no sense that the only money you can win in a FW contract is the opposite team's collateral (and even not all of it).... But hey, that's great for those big empires ! They seed contracts, get people to fight for them and pay ZERO money....... ridiculous in terms of credibility.. Why would i fight, with the risk of losing tons of ISK in goods, for a gain expectancy inferior to twice my collateral ?
Now why is it that way ? Well because another system, more "realistic" would be completely exploitable.
example : 2 NPC corps seed a contract with a 10 Mil reward, collateral 1M. One to defend its district, the other one to attack it. => 2 friendly dust corps, or 1 corp and a ghost corp filled with alts, take those contracts. => They play the battle friendly, deciding with a coin flip who will win that one. => One loses 1M collateral, the other takes 12 M ISK. Then sends back 6M to the other corp via a bogus character. => Free money.
Now, a viable option to make those fights more interesting money side would be to have the equipment of both teams reimbursed by the contracter. Corp still pays a collateral, let's say it's to cover a part of the expense if they get defeated.
A system like that could link the amount of the collateral to the type of equipment that would be reimbursed.
Example : For a contract with a 100K to a 1M collateral, the NPC empire would only reimburse metalevel 1 items. For a contract with a 1M to 2M collateral, NPC would reimburse only metalevel 1 and 2 items etc...
This would probably push corps in doing way more FW contracts as they wouldnt end up being HUGE isk sink for their members. Also, scaling reimbursement with the collateral would avoid corps using proto gear for cheap contracts, probably helping fresh corps with fresh members in the future to avoid being mow down.
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Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
SoTa PoP wrote:Maximus Stryker wrote:SoTa PoP wrote:I think a lot of people in this thread has a horrible case of down syndrome. Zion wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything - he's trying to force CCP to fix a flawed system. Doubt he really gives a damn what side most of you chose. He's simply explaining an exploit and wants help showing CCP how broken it is. Although I don't condone attempting to insult people at the expense of those with down syndrome, I agree with your premise - the issue here is the system and not who people fight for or why they fight for them or trying to control anything. I apologize for my aggressive response - it just seems shock value catches attention better then reason and logic. Sadly I agree with you |
Maximus Stryker
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
393
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 14:48:00 -
[46] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:Maximus Stryker wrote:So if you 'own' some districts/planets and never accept contracts to defend them...the default is that you will continue to own them because no one won them from you...? That needs to be fixed, i agree...why would anyone choose to risk losing their district if all they had to do was decline the challenges to defend and they keep their district?
Lol where is the ISK flow? You put up ISK and another put up theirs. Winner takes all and you get no SP for it. You are not a Merc, your a gambler It's sad that you miss the point of my post. I'm not a smart man, but I do know what love is |
Zion Shad
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
1620
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
One of my main concern is if this same flaw stays in effect then what happens when EVE Capsuleers start to truly make these contract for Dust Merc's and the Dust Mercs never take them. This will kill our interaction and the purpose of this game |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
324
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:05:00 -
[48] - Quote
What we have now is a temporary system. Eventually what is going to happen is FW corps and alliances will be creating the contracts and looking for mercs to fulfill them. If we're tied to one faction then that system then it doesn't make any sense for us to actually be able to pick which battles to fight...the game should just dump us into any old battle.
Even in the current system there's an incentive to focus on taking contracts for a specific faction. If you have a working relationship with a FW group and fight battles for their faction, then you can get them into system before the battle starts to provide orbital support. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Zion Shad wrote:One of my main concern is if this same flaw stays in effect then what happens when EVE Capsuleers start to truly make these contract for Dust Merc's and the Dust Mercs never take them. This will kill our interaction and the purpose of this game
Hey mate. Did you change your topic's title because of my last post ?
Anyway, you're not wrong being worried about many many contracts never being taken by any merc corp. And what i just said before about how the money is really not interesting enough compared to the possible loss is imo one of the main reason this could happen.
If the reward\risk ratio in ISK was higher, then those contracts would end up being way more popular and attractive than what they are now. As atm, they're just a "hey, let's fight those guys coz they troll so much on da forums".
Especially with the daily cap that is kinda quickly reached, those contracts that allow corps to deploy only among team mates SHOULD be the number one activity once cap is reached. In order to do achieve that, they need to earn more money.
And also, a good merc is certainly a very good gambler as well |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:What we have now is a temporary system. Eventually what is going to happen is FW corps and alliances will be creating the contracts and looking for mercs to fulfill them. If we're tied to one faction then that system then it doesn't make any sense for us to actually be able to pick which battles to fight...the game should just dump us into any old battle.
Even in the current system there's an incentive to focus on taking contracts for a specific faction. If you have a working relationship with a FW group and fight battles for their faction, then you can get them into system before the battle starts to provide orbital support.
Agreed there. But you're forgetting about the balance between EVE and Dust economics. Last devblog made very clear that free transfer of ISK between the two games wont be available until quite some time.
Thus, letting capsuleers seed contracts with a specific reward coming from them is not gonna happen soon either as it would be way too easy to use that to pretty much transfer huuuuuuuge amount of money toward Dust. |
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Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
324
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
How soon it happens really isn't important. The point is that's where this is going, and the contract system we have right now is the base that it will be built on. From a development perspective it doesn't make sense to change how the contract system works until the player contracts are available. The NPC contracts would be a stub system using the same back end interface as the player contracts will use. It's just part of the development / testing process. |
Mister0Zz
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
31
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:46:00 -
[52] - Quote
He's not actually saying anything of consequence. Him not accepting defend doesn't mean it cant be taken, just that he won't be responsible. If nobody accepts a defend then the attackers attack an empty map. The district is still lost. It's just that the chances of this happening are astronomically low. So a fight almost always happens. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 15:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:How soon it happens really isn't important. The point is that's where this is going, and the contract system we have right now is the base that it will be built on. From a development perspective it doesn't make sense to change how the contract system works until the player contracts are available. The NPC contracts would be a stub system using the same back end interface as the player contracts will use. It's just part of the development / testing process.
I agree with you regarding the fact that the current system is probably just a scratch of what it will be in the end. But imo, there's some kind of emergency to make them more attractive pretty quickly as this functionality holds in its hands almost every part of the link between Dust and EVE Online (FW, orbital strikes, cooperation between 2 games)
And as open beta is getting closer and closer, the current flaws and miscalculations doesnt make that very important feature much more interesting than any other basic clan war tool.
Mercs need incentive to dive in the politics, contracts, planning etc.... |
Kristoff Atruin
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
324
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
I think the bigger problem right now is that the main reason to run FW contracts is to make isk...but what can a corporation spend that isk on, aside from down payments on more FW contracts? I think this whole system isn't really going to come into it's own until the merc owned districts thing is in place. That's supposed to be our next big expansion.
You could distribute it to corp members, but you're better off just grinding skirmish instant battles until you hit the SP cap then switching to militia gear and continuing the grind for the isk.
On a related note, the mechanic for giving corp wallet isk to members is terrible. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 16:17:00 -
[55] - Quote
Kristoff Atruin wrote:
but you're better off just grinding skirmish instant battles until you hit the SP cap then switching to militia gear and continuing the grind for the isk.
On a related note, the mechanic for giving corp wallet isk to members is terrible.
Unless you take additional ISK in payment from EVE corporations invested in FW. But there too there is really not much in place to make that transaction transparent or easy.
No plyer driven contracts and the ante system in corp. warfare do kind of put a damper on fighting in faction war. There should be a wider range of options for risk and reward. in Corp battles. At the very least EVE corps should be able to cover the ante. If the mercs they backed lost they would lose their ISK. If the corp they backed won, that corp would gain the ISK.
Not a straight ISK transfer which is easily exploitable, but something more to encourage dust corps to do something other than curb stomping and grinding SP in instant battles. |
Moonracer2000
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
312
|
Posted - 2013.01.11 17:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
Looking at the big picture it seems more like the EVE players are the gamblers and Dust corps are the dice. FW seems like a casino money sink for EVE players. Of course if you can afford the good mercs you are basically playing with loaded dice. |
Virex Staz
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
53
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Posted - 2013.01.12 00:32:00 -
[57] - Quote
Mister0Zz wrote:He's not actually saying anything of consequence. Him not accepting defend doesn't mean it cant be taken, just that he won't be responsible. If nobody accepts a defend then the attackers attack an empty map. The district is still lost. It's just that the chances of this happening are astronomically low. So a fight almost always happens.
I think the point he's making is that if nobody accepts the defence contract then the fight doesn't happen and district is not captured.
So if you accept the defence contract you might keep the district, you might lose it. If you don't accept it you won't lose it. |
Nameless 514
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
28
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Posted - 2013.01.12 00:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Enji Elric wrote:Zion Shad wrote:@Enji Elric: We can effect FW Sov already it was tested today. CCP has stated we do not enter a side but hose contract that u use to fight Corp Battle have an effect on EvE online for testing purpose it is this way.... I wouldn't expect it to stay that way for long...
Quote:Does the DUST 514 mercenary's corporation have to enroll in FW to accept these contracts?
The DUST merc's corporation does NOT have to be enrolled in FW to accept these contracts. DUST CEOs/Directors can accept a contract from any faction at any time (even if the EVE side of their corp is enrolled in FW on the other side or if the corp has bad standings with that faction! A true mercenary fights for the highest bidder)
You must have missed this in the OP. It has a LINK with it that you should read be for talking nonsense. Your making statements with no fact's or link's. Stop being misleading to the public Enji |
Cerebral Wolf Jr
Immobile Infantry
760
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 00:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Oh hey, not seen you on this account for awhile Shad. Did you forget to switch over?.... |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
788
|
Posted - 2013.01.12 02:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
The problem with FW isn't that a dust corp doesn't need to be enrolled:
The problem is that they can clearly see the system and enemy before choosing to fight.
There's no gambling there, really. It's a system that's too easy to game, and too easy to 'chicken out' of a fight if you know that at X time you'll be facing Y corp that easily outmatches you. The only thing they should show you prior to accepting the battle is the faction. Corps should lose more than their collateral if they don't even show up, or they back out of the fight early.
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