There is really nothing special or unique gameplay wise except for the orbitals from EVE players

Everything feels the same, there is no incentive to progress because milita>all

Yup im asking for gear to make more of a difference than it does now, it gave you something to aim for, the difference between milita/basic/advanced and proto was substantial and it gave more choices overall.

For once I actually agreee with you.

(The missels needed a nerf obviously, but not this much.)

It seems to be CCP's M.O.,over nerf the things that they think needs nerfing.

Hopefully (but not likely),they will realize that they need to do more tweaking,and less nerfing.Dumbing down the game to attract more casuals isn't a good thing in the long run because 1)after the initial excitement,they will realize that it's not that much different than any other shooter,and they will leave for the next COD or BF,or 2)they might not even bother showing up in the first place because they might feel like it's just like every other shooter,and in that case,why leave what you are already playing to grind at something new?

CCP needs to nut up and keep this game on outer edges of what people consider to be casual shooters.

While I agree that there have been some over reaction nerfs, I reserve judgement of the game's staying power until we have full release content.

As it is now, Dust 514 is a generic shooter with TDM, obective based mode and fairly deep skill / progression system.

However, most of us know that will not be the case down the line. There will be the ability to take districts and planets, more toys, integrated New Eden market, risk / reward and most importantly.....tears


I still see a pretty good difference between STD and PROTO gear and TBH, the places you will more than likely use PROTO gear there will be nothing but ADV and PROTO gear....so who really cares about the difference between Militia and PROTO. IMO, we shouldn't see that much PROTO in pubbies once we have sec space differences....and if you can PROTO pubstomp in high sec space then it should be at the risk of being terribly inefficient when you die more than once or twice. Why else would anyone ever leave High Sec.

It's a tough balance guys....I don't envy CCP on this one. Previously people were complaining that fights were too gear dependant and there needed to be more emphasis on the player's skill. At the very least, the narrowing of difference between the gear variants prevents below average gun game from looking like beast gun game because of the inherent gear.

Not sure where I stand on tanks yet. I think we could have used more time with them for 16 v 16 corp battles in their prior state rather than basing a nerf on public matches where there is little to no coordination.

The ar damage between the tiers shouldn't be flattened and the higher tier suits should have more health. Make it a 22 hp. (Basic shield extender) difference in shields between the tiers.

Not saying these things will make the game more exciting. But it'll stick to the game's concept. We are missing more than half of the things promised for release, so this game should be exciting. They just have to improve certain core features

While I agree that there have been some over reaction nerfs, I reserve judgement of the game's staying power until we have full release content.

As it is now, Dust 514 is a generic shooter with TDM, obective based mode and fairly deep skill / progression system.

However, most of us know that will not be the case down the line. There will be the ability to take districts and planets, more toys, integrated New Eden market, risk / reward and most importantly.....tears


I still see a pretty good difference between STD and PROTO gear and TBH, the places you will more than likely use PROTO gear there will be nothing but ADV and PROTO gear....so who really cares about the difference between Militia and PROTO. IMO, we shouldn't see that much PROTO in pubbies once we have sec space differences....and if you can PROTO pubstomp in high sec space then it should be at the risk of being terribly inefficient when you die more than once or twice. Why else would anyone ever leave High Sec.

It's a tough balance guys....I don't envy CCP on this one. Previously people were complaining that fights were too gear dependant and there needed to be more emphasis on the player's skill. At the very least, the narrowing of difference between the gear variants prevents below average gun game from looking like beast gun game because of the inherent gear.

Not sure where I stand on tanks yet. I think we could have used more time with them for 16 v 16 corp battles in their prior state rather than basing a nerf on public matches where there is little to no coordination.

Snake,

I get that you are frustrated but I think you are exaggerating a bit:

1) The PROTO variants are way better than militia in every respect. If they weren't, you would see guys going 36-1 in full militia fits rather than Duvolles fit on ADV, PROTO, or Type II's. Is it more efficient than militia, No. That's why it should be reserved for the important fights and not every public match you play in. Since you are comparing to EvE....It's not like every time a pilot undocks he does so in a Dark Blood, Sansha, or Officer fit Battleship.

2) You are saying just because CCP has narrowed the gap between variants they might as well remove all skills and give us sling shots. That's like telling your parents to cancel Christmas because they gave you 10 yr old car instead of a new Benz.

3) The market will have an impact if only because you will be able to sell your loot drops of items you don't plan on using which essentially gives you another income stream to fund your craving to rock PROTO gear all day errryday. Not to mention the free market will create price competition and you can expect all variants to have price fluctuation. If you want your gear cheaper, get to producing it or find an EvE Corp who will do so for you at a reduced cost.


This game isn't just about leveling and skilling. The depth of universe and the ongoing war is the end game.

Besides....An older player in this universe isn't necessarily going to be better with an AR than a properly skilled 3 month old player. He can just use more than the AR whereas the 3 month old player probably cannot do so or, if he can, he can't use other weapons as effectively as the older player.

It really always comes down to Dust having no clue , what kind of players it wants and ends up pissing off both sides.

Your looking for a RPG because the name has Eve in it and wont be happy till it is a RPG all the way. Where others including myself saw MMOFPS and wont be happy till its a MMOFPS.

RPG players want to grind to get stronger and FPS players want to grind to get more toys to play with and this is the greatest divide of the player base.

RPG players want the rag to riches story and FPS players want the battle hardened rookie soldier progression

Snake,

I get that you are frustrated but I think you are exaggerating a bit:

1) The PROTO variants are way better than militia in every respect. If they weren't, you would see guys going 36-1 in full militia fits rather than Duvolles fit on ADV, PROTO, or Type II's. Is it more efficient than militia, No. That's why it should be reserved for the important fights and not every public match you play in. Since you are comparing to EvE....It's not like every time a pilot undocks he does so in a Dark Blood, Sansha, or Officer fit Battleship.

2) You are saying just because CCP has narrowed the gap between variants they might as well remove all skills and give us sling shots. That's like telling your parents to cancel Christmas because they gave you 10 yr old car instead of a new Benz.

3) The market will have an impact if only because you will be able to sell your loot drops of items you don't plan on using which essentially gives you another income stream to fund your craving to rock PROTO gear all day errryday. Not to mention the free market will create price competition and you can expect all variants to have price fluctuation. If you want your gear cheaper, get to producing it or find an EvE Corp who will do so for you at a reduced cost.


This game isn't just about leveling and skilling. The depth of universe and the ongoing war is the end game.

Besides....An older player in this universe isn't necessarily going to be better with an AR than a properly skilled 3 month old player. He can just use more than the AR whereas the 3 month old player probably cannot do so or, if he can, he can't use other weapons as effectively as the older player.

+1 in admiration for clear, reasoned and concise analysis. Plus the ability to see beyond the immediate. Plus vision.

I am not very happy with the HAV, but i when i look at the DS i can smile a bit. Took out 3 with my blaster. They were flying way too low. AV's are just unbalanced, they dont need a nerf, they just need a bit of tweaking

1. Remove flight ceiling.
2. Either give missiles range or splash radius.
3. Give rails a slight splash radius buff.
4. reduce damage from AV grenades.

Buff tank missiles AND nerf their counters?

That sounds vehicle biased......AV grenades are fine the way they are. Most tank drivers run in the spawn once their shields take a 10% hit and you can't get close enough to throw AVs anyway.

Vehicles are fine the way they are now...and so are the AV grenades. I wish the AVs were stronger but then I'm biased.

I disagree Nerf AV grenades they are OP.

Replication you mean? Heavy's were OP in that one, but are fine now. I consistently see Heavys pulling off 16-1's and 20-3's.

I do agree with your thoughts. At the moment, things are too.... similar. Protosuit needs it's own "power". For example, give it a higher jump. Or give it drastically increased speed. HP isn't the only factor that can be messed around with. It's the easiest, but that's looking from a 2d perspective. A Protosuit overall needs more. Same with advanced, give each tier of suit a function or bonus no other tier has.

parts of this i agree w/ yet others....ah, not so much

Firstly, i do like that you are looking to the future, however, much of what you said WONT be there on release. A lot of the player driven market and stuff like that won't be added till 6 months in (as CCP said it wont be on release); and as it is, we can only discuss what is affecting us NOW, as for all we know things will change later on that either validates all this or doesnt.

To narrowing the gaps of weapons; simply put = bad. I am not the most skilled gun (can admit it), but a benefit of running proto weapons & suits in prior builds helped in my & others survivability. Now the suits and guns dont really help in that. From a T2 suit to a Vk.1 , if you are on a buffer fit, the only real difference is 128 shield, which translates to 4 bullets from an AR, which comes down to a bit more then a quarter of a second of holding the trigger. So yes, skill is good to have; but for the amount of time & SP required to get proto gear should have reasonable edge. As to compare SP, a T2 to a proto is separated by about ~2mil SP (i believe), yet the only difference is a bit of extra shield/damage & maybe a regulator.

As to proto variants being better then all others; they are, but it isnt enough to warrant the use when u look at ISK cost and SP cost. This gets worse when you compare proto weapons/gear of differ categories against each other. If you lok at a proto AR vs a basic HMG. The skilling potential is almost equal w/ the flattening of damage. Before a proto/adv AR has a good chance to beat an HMG in CQC which they should b/c of the SP they put into their character. Yet now, that is a totally different story. Reason is, in even last build; a GEK AR, had semi "trouble" taking on a basic/adv heavy in CQB ranges b/c of the dps a hmg does along w/ the tanking a heavy naturally comes with. Yet now, the Duvolle now is barely above whata GEK was, so AR (which are a jack of all trade weapon), have been semi kicked out of a CQC arena, and put o medium range, which they aren't good for anymore b/c of iron sights; where LR now rule.

The flattening of damage affected weapon roles (and reason to skill them) by causing a disparity when compared to other gear/weapon levels. As it was last build and prior builds, it was good for a proto AR to take out a basic/adv heavy in "CQC" range is warranted b/c of the SP & time put in; however the reason (at moment) for grinding for the ability has been removed.

All im getting at here (as people will prob agree or flame) is that skill is a factor needed; but not everyone is on equal skilling; and that GEAR should help and play a role but also not be a sole factor; yet at the moment the gear doesn't match up to the SP & ISK required to use them

If they would just bring back tier restricted games, newbs and not so good players would actually have a place to play. Instead of a place to constantly be slaughtered by experienced groups running high level gear. New groups could actualy start playing the game, which brings new ideas. Many of the replication testers are bitter and jaded. Myself included.

The community has asked for this to be REINSTATED numerous times.

Major broken gameplay issues include head glitching snipers, redline tank scrubbery and grenade spam / laser camping. Nerfing range of tank/snipers is NOT the way.
It's the maps. Now, it's great that we're going to have so many maps (one day), but it's just going to be a god awful mess.

On MAG it took around 100 hours to learn ROUGHLY what the maps were all about. Around 200 you were confident, and after 500 hours, you knew exactly what you were up to. This is an impossible task in Dust. For hardened FPS gamers, it will be a unique challenge. For your average PS3 microtransaction consumer however? I don't think so. While a great deal of people seem to think Dust is a niche market game, it's not.

Dust is CCP's best hope for survival when Star Citizen and Elite:Dangerous are released (2014 apparently).

So people, getcha whining tinfoil hat on. Let's not dumb things down. Let's refine what we have, and make something worthy of CCP's time and effort.

parts of this i agree w/ yet others....ah, not so much

Firstly, i do like that you are looking to the future, however, much of what you said WONT be there on release. A lot of the player driven market and stuff like that won't be added till 6 months in (as CCP said it wont be on release); and as it is, we can only discuss what is affecting us NOW, as for all we know things will change later on that either validates all this or doesnt.

To narrowing the gaps of weapons; simply put = bad. I am not the most skilled gun (can admit it), but a benefit of running proto weapons & suits in prior builds helped in my & others survivability. Now the suits and guns dont really help in that. From a T2 suit to a Vk.1 , if you are on a buffer fit, the only real difference is 128 shield, which translates to 4 bullets from an AR, which comes down to a bit more then a quarter of a second of holding the trigger. So yes, skill is good to have; but for the amount of time & SP required to get proto gear should have reasonable edge. As to compare SP, a T2 to a proto is separated by about ~2mil SP (i believe), yet the only difference is a bit of extra shield/damage & maybe a regulator.

As to proto variants being better then all others; they are, but it isnt enough to warrant the use when u look at ISK cost and SP cost. This gets worse when you compare proto weapons/gear of differ categories against each other. If you lok at a proto AR vs a basic HMG. The skilling potential is almost equal w/ the flattening of damage. Before a proto/adv AR has a good chance to beat an HMG in CQC which they should b/c of the SP they put into their character. Yet now, that is a totally different story. Reason is, in even last build; a GEK AR, had semi "trouble" taking on a basic/adv heavy in CQB ranges b/c of the dps a hmg does along w/ the tanking a heavy naturally comes with. Yet now, the Duvolle now is barely above whata GEK was, so AR (which are a jack of all trade weapon), have been semi kicked out of a CQC arena, and put o medium range, which they aren't good for anymore b/c of iron sights; where LR now rule.

The flattening of damage affected weapon roles (and reason to skill them) by causing a disparity when compared to other gear/weapon levels. As it was last build and prior builds, it was good for a proto AR to take out a basic/adv heavy in "CQC" range is warranted b/c of the SP & time put in; however the reason (at moment) for grinding for the ability has been removed.

All im getting at here (as people will prob agree or flame) is that skill is a factor needed; but not everyone is on equal skilling; and that GEAR should help and play a role but also not be a sole factor; yet at the moment the gear doesn't match up to the SP & ISK required to use them

Nerf everything. Then skill is all we will have...hand to hand combat maybe. Like Nintendo "Mike Tyson Punchout" on steroids. can i get an Amen.

.....

Now can someone explain to me how are ADV/PRO weapons considered a significant 'improvement'? A difference of 5% or less should not require me to pay more ISK.

.....

oh really? How much would it cost to get 5% more output from a formula one engine? That last 5% is hellaciously, exponentially more expensive when you're pushing the edge of the technological envelope. Same argument applies to redundancy. Same argument applies to reliability. From the backstory for DUST, our weapons are pushing the edge of the envelope and then some.

Next 'realistic' argument please.

oh really? How much would it cost to get 5% more output from a formula one engine? That last 5% is hellaciously, exponentially more expensive when you're pushing the edge of the technological envelope. Same argument applies to redundancy. Same argument applies to reliability. From the backstory for DUST, our weapons are pushing the edge of the envelope and then some.

Next 'realistic' argument please.

Unless your just really bad at the game and you can only go positive using PROTO vs STD & militia and you sleep better at night doing so. Then by all means.

Replication you mean? Heavy's were OP in that one, but are fine now. I consistently see Heavys pulling off 16-1's and 20-3's.

I do agree with your thoughts. At the moment, things are too.... similar. Protosuit needs it's own "power". For example, give it a higher jump. Or give it drastically increased speed. HP isn't the only factor that can be messed around with. It's the easiest, but that's looking from a 2d perspective. A Protosuit overall needs more. Same with advanced, give each tier of suit a function or bonus no other tier has.

oh really? How much would it cost to get 5% more output from a formula one engine? That last 5% is hellaciously, exponentially more expensive when you're pushing the edge of the technological envelope. Same argument applies to redundancy. Same argument applies to reliability. From the backstory for DUST, our weapons are pushing the edge of the envelope and then some.

Next 'realistic' argument please.

Are you silly enough to think this why anyone is arguing for more gear difference?

Get better at making your point.

Tiel has a thread currently locked with actual numbers instead of your feelings. Come post in it AFTER reading the math.