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Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
216
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Posted - 2013.01.04 15:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
While I agree that there have been some over reaction nerfs, I reserve judgement of the game's staying power until we have full release content.
As it is now, Dust 514 is a generic shooter with TDM, obective based mode and fairly deep skill / progression system.
However, most of us know that will not be the case down the line. There will be the ability to take districts and planets, more toys, integrated New Eden market, risk / reward and most importantly.....tears
I still see a pretty good difference between STD and PROTO gear and TBH, the places you will more than likely use PROTO gear there will be nothing but ADV and PROTO gear....so who really cares about the difference between Militia and PROTO. IMO, we shouldn't see that much PROTO in pubbies once we have sec space differences....and if you can PROTO pubstomp in high sec space then it should be at the risk of being terribly inefficient when you die more than once or twice. Why else would anyone ever leave High Sec.
It's a tough balance guys....I don't envy CCP on this one. Previously people were complaining that fights were too gear dependant and there needed to be more emphasis on the player's skill. At the very least, the narrowing of difference between the gear variants prevents below average gun game from looking like beast gun game because of the inherent gear.
Not sure where I stand on tanks yet. I think we could have used more time with them for 16 v 16 corp battles in their prior state rather than basing a nerf on public matches where there is little to no coordination. |
Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 17:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Snake,
I get that you are frustrated but I think you are exaggerating a bit:
1) The PROTO variants are way better than militia in every respect. If they weren't, you would see guys going 36-1 in full militia fits rather than Duvolles fit on ADV, PROTO, or Type II's. Is it more efficient than militia, No. That's why it should be reserved for the important fights and not every public match you play in. Since you are comparing to EvE....It's not like every time a pilot undocks he does so in a Dark Blood, Sansha, or Officer fit Battleship.
2) You are saying just because CCP has narrowed the gap between variants they might as well remove all skills and give us sling shots. That's like telling your parents to cancel Christmas because they gave you 10 yr old car instead of a new Benz.
3) The market will have an impact if only because you will be able to sell your loot drops of items you don't plan on using which essentially gives you another income stream to fund your craving to rock PROTO gear all day errryday. Not to mention the free market will create price competition and you can expect all variants to have price fluctuation. If you want your gear cheaper, get to producing it or find an EvE Corp who will do so for you at a reduced cost.
This game isn't just about leveling and skilling. The depth of universe and the ongoing war is the end game.
Besides....An older player in this universe isn't necessarily going to be better with an AR than a properly skilled 3 month old player. He can just use more than the AR whereas the 3 month old player probably cannot do so or, if he can, he can't use other weapons as effectively as the older player. |
Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.04 20:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:Vrain Matari wrote:Jaiden Longshot wrote:Snake,
I get that you are frustrated but I think you are exaggerating a bit:
1) The PROTO variants are way better than militia in every respect. If they weren't, you would see guys going 36-1 in full militia fits rather than Duvolles fit on ADV, PROTO, or Type II's. Is it more efficient than militia, No. That's why it should be reserved for the important fights and not every public match you play in. Since you are comparing to EvE....It's not like every time a pilot undocks he does so in a Dark Blood, Sansha, or Officer fit Battleship.
2) You are saying just because CCP has narrowed the gap between variants they might as well remove all skills and give us sling shots. That's like telling your parents to cancel Christmas because they gave you 10 yr old car instead of a new Benz.
3) The market will have an impact if only because you will be able to sell your loot drops of items you don't plan on using which essentially gives you another income stream to fund your craving to rock PROTO gear all day errryday. Not to mention the free market will create price competition and you can expect all variants to have price fluctuation. If you want your gear cheaper, get to producing it or find an EvE Corp who will do so for you at a reduced cost.
This game isn't just about leveling and skilling. The depth of universe and the ongoing war is the end game.
Besides....An older player in this universe isn't necessarily going to be better with an AR than a properly skilled 3 month old player. He can just use more than the AR whereas the 3 month old player probably cannot do so or, if he can, he can't use other weapons as effectively as the older player. +1 in admiration for clear, reasoned and concise analysis. Plus the ability to see beyond the immediate. Plus vision. parts of this i agree w/ yet others....ah, not so much Firstly, i do like that you are looking to the future, however, much of what you said WONT be there on release. A lot of the player driven market and stuff like that won't be added till 6 months in (as CCP said it wont be on release); and as it is, we can only discuss what is affecting us NOW, as for all we know things will change later on that either validates all this or doesnt. To narrowing the gaps of weapons; simply put = bad. I am not the most skilled gun (can admit it), but a benefit of running proto weapons & suits in prior builds helped in my & others survivability. Now the suits and guns dont really help in that. From a T2 suit to a Vk.1 , if you are on a buffer fit, the only real difference is 128 shield, which translates to 4 bullets from an AR, which comes down to a bit more then a quarter of a second of holding the trigger. So yes, skill is good to have; but for the amount of time & SP required to get proto gear should have reasonable edge. As to compare SP, a T2 to a proto is separated by about ~2mil SP (i believe), yet the only difference is a bit of extra shield/damage & maybe a regulator. As to proto variants being better then all others; they are, but it isnt enough to warrant the use when u look at ISK cost and SP cost. This gets worse when you compare proto weapons/gear of differ categories against each other. If you lok at a proto AR vs a basic HMG. The skilling potential is almost equal w/ the flattening of damage. Before a proto/adv AR has a good chance to beat an HMG in CQC which they should b/c of the SP they put into their character. Yet now, that is a totally different story. Reason is, in even last build; a GEK AR, had semi "trouble" taking on a basic/adv heavy in CQB ranges b/c of the dps a hmg does along w/ the tanking a heavy naturally comes with. Yet now, the Duvolle now is barely above whata GEK was, so AR (which are a jack of all trade weapon), have been semi kicked out of a CQC arena, and put o medium range, which they aren't good for anymore b/c of iron sights; where LR now rule. The flattening of damage affected weapon roles (and reason to skill them) by causing a disparity when compared to other gear/weapon levels. As it was last build and prior builds, it was good for a proto AR to take out a basic/adv heavy in "CQC" range is warranted b/c of the SP & time put in; however the reason (at moment) for grinding for the ability has been removed. All im getting at here (as people will prob agree or flame) is that skill is a factor needed; but not everyone is on equal skilling; and that GEAR should help and play a role but also not be a sole factor; yet at the moment the gear doesn't match up to the SP & ISK required to use them
I understand that you are looking at what we have to work with now but:
There is no denying that PROTO is, in fact, way better than militia gear. If you are losing 1 v 1 PROTO v Militia you are doing it wrong.
I wholeheartedly agree that based on what we have right now it is not efficient or practical to use the higher end gear. However, when you are defending something that is important or you are fighting in a corp battle where you get zero ISK for losing, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you agree it makes much more sense to use PROTO gear despite the inherent cost.
The current issue is that in 95% of the matches you play (Non Corp Battles) you get paid to lose. The minute you don't get paid to lose then my guess is that it will make much more sense to use your best gear.
I like to use shiny stuff too....but just because I can't validate using it in a pubby doesn't mean it's not working as intended. Now, if we can't earn enough ISK in Corp battles or FAC War battles (while winning) then there is a problem.
Also, I'm fairly confident you will be able to sell gear back well before 6 months after release. It's much less likely that we will see player made gear until much later but the market should be much better than it is now. |
Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 02:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Vrain Matari wrote:Alldin Kan wrote:.....
Now can someone explain to me how are ADV/PRO weapons considered a significant 'improvement'? A difference of 5% or less should not require me to pay more ISK.
..... oh really? How much would it cost to get 5% more output from a formula one engine? That last 5% is hellaciously, exponentially more expensive when you're pushing the edge of the technological envelope. Same argument applies to redundancy. Same argument applies to reliability. From the backstory for DUST, our weapons are pushing the edge of the envelope and then some. Next 'realistic' argument please.
Honestly....If there was such an unremarkable difference nobody would use PROTO gear but as it stands I rarely, if ever, go a whole game without seeing a PROTO AR or 5 pop up in the kill feed.
You also have to consider ROF and the difference in accuracy. People before have done the math and noted that there still isn't a 'big enough' gap between the weapons. I still say the proof is in the pudding because there is a rather big difference, IMO, between my STD Burst rifle and the Allotek and if there I wasn't I wouldn't ever want to use the Allotek and you wouldn't see people complaining about the cost of PROTO gear because nobody would be using it.
I think if people remove ISK from the variables then you wouldn't see so many complaints about the gaps.
All I am saying is if you were given a proper place to use your PROTO gear where the ISK reward was higher or you were defending a district you controlled, I doubt you would even care if it was efficient to use PROTO gear in public matches.
Unless your just really bad at the game and you can only go positive using PROTO vs STD & militia and you sleep better at night doing so. Then by all means. |
Jaiden Longshot
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.05 04:48:00 -
[5] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:Jaiden Longshot wrote:
Unless your just really bad at the game and you can only go positive using PROTO vs STD & militia and you sleep better at night doing so. Then by all means.
Are you silly enough to think this why anyone is arguing for more gear difference? Get better at making your point. Tiel has a thread currently locked with actual numbers instead of your feelings. Come post in it AFTER reading the math.
The math only matters when considering 2 players standing at optimal weapon distance for each weapon type, in the open, with every round hitting target.
Call me silly if I doubt that happens more times than not.
So, basically you are saying you'll never use PROTO gear because militia is just as good or close enough that it doesn't matter?
You're clearly not picking up what I'm putting down. I'm all for more gear difference but not at the cost of pubstomping players in High Sec with little to no penalty.
Having gear restrictions in High Sec would be a better option, IMO. However, we are in closed beta and separating the players at this point would probably be a bad idea so I think this is a reasonable compromise. We don't even have access to all of the gear variants yet.
CCP didn't do this just get your panties in a bunch. I'm going to suggest they have access to a few more numbers than you do and there were many threads about how there should be a better balance between gear and player skill.
I'll close by again stating that I don't like it that it seems impractical to use my higher end gear right now but I understand why CCP chose to do so. Sometimes you have to consider more variables than just your own enjoyment or ability to do what you want during a beta test, No?
Maybe CCP needs some time with weapon stats the way they are for testing purposes? Nah, they just want you to have less fun  |
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