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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 00:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, just to preface, I am a sniper. That's what I play and have been playing nearly exclusively the past couple builds. Right now I'm #5 or 6 on the KDR leader board. So please don't accuse me of not knowing what it's like to be a sniper or whatever and therefore my opinion isn't valid. And yes, I know KDR doesn't mean anything and etc, I'm just saying that I'm not inexperienced at sniping, and am simply trying to be honest about my chosen method of play. I'm fairly sure RankRancid is also a sniper, and his KDR is even higher, being #2 or so. I would suspect that the majority of non-boosting people atop the KDR leader board are in fact snipers.
State of Sniping Sniping was nerfed in Codex such that, between the Weaponry decrease and the sniping skills damage decrease (3% -> 2% per level, and 5% -> 3% per level respectively), snipers do a total of 15% less damage this build compared to last. The result is that, unless you're in a scout suit or were shot in the head, you probably haven't been one-shot-killed much if at all from full health since the update. Rejoice.
However, sniping is still very popular, and for good reason. Its popularity carries with it the unfortunate effect of making infantry combat less enjoyable for the people playing infantry. A minority of players, playing sniper, are making the game less enjoyable for the majority of remaining people, who themselves are running around on foot being shot by snipers. I believe that, on the basis of pleasing most players, sniping should therefore be made less safe, less powerful, and more skill-demanding to play, so as to reduce the number of snipers and their annoyance factor for everyone else.
The Power of Sniping Despite the damage decrease, sniping is still one of if not the most powerful way to fight on foot, due to the following reasons:
Power: Sniping damage was nerfed, but what won't kill you in one will more than likely kill you in two. Sniping still offers a way for players to easily get kills from enormous distances. What's more, sniping does not become impotent as a means of combat until the sniper is within very close range of the enemy. Even at relatively modest distances of 25 m, a sniper can rapidly land hits on enemies from standing. No other weapon offers the kind of power and versatility a sniper rifle does.
Safety: With great power also comes great safety. At a base range of 600 m, sniping allows players to sit on a hill somewhere, unseen from most enemies, unreachable apart from by other snipers, and posing great challenges to anyone with a desire to engage the sniper in combat and kill them using something other than another sniper rifle. The safety with which snipers operate contrasts rather sharply with the life of generic infantry, who are prey for every force at work in the game. And yet, for the danger that comes with being infantry, no extra power awaits. They are fodder for people like snipers, whose only serious worry is other snipers.
Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.
The Solutions Power of sniping I believe could be addressed by making the time between shots greater. Add something like what HMGs have, where the weapon overheats after every shot and you need to wait a second or two or whatever tests well to shoot again. It is good that we have gotten further away from being able to one-shot everyone. Now give people shot once more time to seek cover.
Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.
Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added. |
Renzo Kuken
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
369
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 01:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:So, just to preface, I am a sniper. That's what I play and have been playing nearly exclusively the past couple builds. Right now I'm #5 or 6 on the KDR leader board. So please don't accuse me of not knowing what it's like to be a sniper or whatever and therefore my opinion isn't valid. And yes, I know KDR doesn't mean anything and etc, I'm just saying that I'm not inexperienced at sniping, and am simply trying to be honest about my chosen method of play. I'm fairly sure RankRancid is also a sniper, and his KDR is even higher, being #2 or so. I would suspect that the majority of non-boosting people atop the KDR leader board are in fact snipers.
State of Sniping Sniping was nerfed in Codex such that, between the Weaponry decrease and the sniping skills damage decrease (3% -> 2% per level, and 5% -> 3% per level respectively), snipers do a total of 15% less damage this build compared to last. The result is that, unless you're in a scout suit or were shot in the head, you probably haven't been one-shot-killed much if at all from full health since the update. Rejoice.
However, sniping is still very popular, and for good reason. Its popularity carries with it the unfortunate effect of making infantry combat less enjoyable for the people playing infantry. A minority of players, playing sniper, are making the game less enjoyable for the majority of remaining people, who themselves are running around on foot being shot by snipers. I believe that, on the basis of pleasing most players, sniping should therefore be made less safe, less powerful, and more skill-demanding to play, so as to reduce the number of snipers and their annoyance factor for everyone else.
The Power of Sniping Despite the damage decrease, sniping is still one of if not the most powerful way to fight on foot, due to the following reasons:
Power: Sniping damage was nerfed, but what won't kill you in one will more than likely kill you in two. Sniping still offers a way for players to easily get kills from enormous distances. What's more, sniping does not become impotent as a means of combat until the sniper is within very close range of the enemy. Even at relatively modest distances of 25 m, a sniper can rapidly land hits on enemies from standing. No other weapon offers the kind of power and versatility a sniper rifle does.
Safety: With great power also comes great safety. At a base range of 600 m, sniping allows players to sit on a hill somewhere, unseen from most enemies, unreachable apart from by other snipers, and posing great challenges to anyone with a desire to engage the sniper in combat and kill them using something other than another sniper rifle. The safety with which snipers operate contrasts rather sharply with the life of generic infantry, who are prey for every force at work in the game. And yet, for the danger that comes with being infantry, no extra power awaits. They are fodder for people like snipers, whose only serious worry is other snipers.
Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.
The Solutions Power of sniping I believe could be addressed by making the time between shots greater. Add something like what HMGs have, where the weapon overheats after every shot and you need to wait a second or two or whatever tests well to shoot again. It is good that we have gotten further away from being able to one-shot everyone. Now give people shot once more time to seek cover.
Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.
Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.
snipers are supposed to demoralize the enemy and be undetectable i have no problem going on sniper hunts and playing counter sniper...sounds like a build you can spec into called gee i dunno, counter sniper maybe this shouldnt try to be battlefileld with tracer rounds and scope glare...i feel the sniper is working as intended its bad enough i cant go prone to hide my profile even more...if you are picked off then you should grab a rifle and scan the mountains and buildings
the only thing that needs to be changed is the way people react to when their buddy drops dead in front of them
working as intended |
Tyrius Madison
97
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 01:47:00 -
[3] - Quote
The only problem I have with Sniping, is people sitting up in the Red Zone taking potshots where I can't get to them to take them out.
if I could get to these people without timing out and dying, I'd have no issues with Sniping.
Sniping is what it is. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 02:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Renzo Kuken wrote:if you are picked off then you should grab a rifle and scan the mountains and buildings
Maybe instead of me grabbing a rifle and scanning the mountains and buildings you could read the first ******* sentence of that huge post I made which you so kindly quoted for everyone in its entirety. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 02:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Renzo Kuken wrote:if you are picked off then you should grab a rifle and scan the mountains and buildings Maybe instead of me grabbing a rifle and scanning the mountains and buildings you could read the first ******* sentence of that huge post I made which you so kindly quoted for everyone in its entirety. ********** will be ********** no matter what so don't bother explaining it to him and i have found it way to easy to snipe still |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 04:51:00 -
[6] - Quote
I dont have much to say besides that, it sometimes takes me three or four shots to kill people cause they move :U im not a super advanced sniper but I play it because im very comfortable being a long range engagement system and most of the time I am playing either CQC or long range combat with the ocassional hack assist and troop transport, but usuall I am playing the role of intelligence and sneaking into range of a large group of enemies to alert my team mates what is at the next objective. As for other people, I feel as if they play sniper because they dont infact really have any skill and just play it cause they like to camp and do as alittle work as possible.
Now onto the overheating thing, As it is a feasable thing, you seem to not realize that the sniper rifles are semi automatic, and I think the last time a semi automatic rifle overheated was never, now this isnt COD or BF3 but the recoil in BF3 and COD (here come the trolls) makes sniping alot harder as it flips the scope sight up on purpose making it harder to refind your target thus making you have to manage alot more.
But most of the games I have played there are alot of skilled assault troops who up their range to maximum just to counter act snipers, so most of the matches I play, im always countering people rushing me with a sub or a pistol (yes I have used the default scrambler pistol to kill people, people hate me for it :U )
Now I find sniping to be hard as is already because people know me for sniping and that I usually go it alone and when people do find me I have two guys rushing me because one usually cant take me unless they are high up in skill level and that is rare. I do like that the sniper role has been made harder, but it is also how you make your skillsets and some people play insane amounts of hours just to get things or use mommys credit card to buy guns.
I do want to suggest that forcing you to have a designated spotter (ie someone with like sensing binocs that have to scan targets for you as compared to being able to sweep and see targets would make the sniper a harder class to be, like making the sniper class have very short range sensors and making it so someone else has to assist you, there fore also giving you protection and making teamwork happen instead of people just sitting around not really gaining any skill playing as a sniper class) |
Xiree
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
55
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 05:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
tl;dr
Yea, bullets are made to fly as fast as they can -- Even today they are designed to fly farther and faster. They evenly have been making bullets that can follow or be interrupted in the flight to change sudden trajectory.
What makes you think a bullet in the future wouldn't be advanced? The sniper rifle shoots charged particles. Some, which could go at light speed. I only wish they would change the HUD of the assault rifle to have more of a iron-sight view. But again, in the future... You could possibly see via camera down the barrel of the gun. From hip... or holding the gun steady. I think thats cool, but it would be cooler if I could have that small camera view in a box in my HUD instead of having it cover my entire screen. I just don't like the Assault rifles view... Other than that... I have not a problem with the sniper rifle. I think the gun shouldn't sway at all while standing up, but only recoils hard.
I think exploding rounds should be a perk or something with the sniper rifle... With a slight delay of explosion too... It would be funny. |
Wintars Boar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
64
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 05:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
I suspect once gunships and fighters are buzzing around, we snipers will be scared squirrels hiding and diving and running to cover more than camping and plinking. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 05:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.
This point is highlighted but I want to point out that you got the reason for the ease of use correct but not entirely complete.
No sway is a problem. But the bigger problem is lack of legitimate recoil. Sure, your rifle bounces up. But it returns to the -exact same spot- making follow up shots far too easy. If anything needs to be changed about sniper rifles, it is this. Travel time for shots would be nice. More sway would be nice. But recoil actually mattering is a must. Sniping needs to be at least somewhat challenging to do well. Like the OP said. It is far too easy. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 05:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nova Knife wrote:This point is highlighted but I want to point out that you got the reason for the ease of use correct but not entirely complete.
No sway is a problem. But the bigger problem is lack of legitimate recoil. Sure, your rifle bounces up. But it returns to the -exact same spot- making follow up shots far too easy. If anything needs to be changed about sniper rifles, it is this. Travel time for shots would be nice. More sway would be nice. But recoil actually mattering is a must. Sniping needs to be at least somewhat challenging to do well. Like the OP said. It is far too easy.
I believe there used to be recoil like you described, in the pre-E3 build, but I only did a little bit of sniping then and don't really recall. Either way, I'm not married to specifics. Maybe sway, maybe bullet travel time, maybe recoil -- but a fix, one way or the other. Sniping is too easy for the power it provides.
Wintars Boar wrote:I suspect once gunships and fighters are buzzing around, we snipers will be scared squirrels hiding and diving and running to cover more than camping and plinking.
That's very possible. Dropships are very rare things to have to contend with, but the couple times I have they really shut me down. However, I don't like to make predictions about such things, myself. If it turns out that future aircraft take snipers down a notch and make sniping dangerous for once, hey, that'd be great too.
DarkShadowFox wrote:Now onto the overheating thing, As it is a feasable thing, you seem to not realize that the sniper rifles are semi automatic, and I think the last time a semi automatic rifle overheated was never, now this isnt COD or BF3 but the recoil in BF3 and COD (here come the trolls) makes sniping alot harder as it flips the scope sight up on purpose making it harder to refind your target thus making you have to manage alot more.
I'm aware of how sniper rifles operate in the game. I suggested the weapon briefly overheat, like an HMG, after you shoot it. Making the weapon jump I guess would be okay too. My main issue is that it's still quite easy to kill a lot of people quickly as a sniper. Slowing down the rate the weapon inflicts damage is my concern.
Quote:I do want to suggest that forcing you to have a designated spotter (ie someone with like sensing binocs that have to scan targets for you as compared to being able to sweep and see targets would make the sniper a harder class to be, like making the sniper class have very short range sensors and making it so someone else has to assist you, there fore also giving you protection and making teamwork happen instead of people just sitting around not really gaining any skill playing as a sniper class)
I don't like this idea. Forcing people to rely on another person, and for that other person to do nothing but spot targets, wouldn't be fun for anyone. Sniping, and really any activity in Dust, should be something you can just pick up and do. Nobody should be forced to coax a friend into sitting around look at enemies for them any time they want to play as a sniper.
I didn't read your post either. |
|
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 06:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
As with your posts regarding sniping prior to Codex I have the following (still unanswered) questions.
- As someone high up the rankings among snipers how do you see your experiences comparing to those of the average sniper?
- You've stated in a few posts that sniping has a low skill entry threshold. On the character skill side what is the numeric threshold of Skill Points invested where use of a role/class becomes non-trivial/not "low" any longer? On the player skill side if little player skill is required to be successful as a sniper please outline the method by which someone new to dust/sniping/fps could take up sniping and be effective in the manner you describe (after all if folks can follow your method and rise up the leaderboard that supports your point).
- How do you account for maintaining the usefulness of sniping gear for other playstyles outside of the 'mostly stationary unless found, establish kill zone, maintain maximum range' version of sniping as you've described it in other posts? (Note: I'm not interested in a debate regarding what is or is not in fact sniping. The point here is how to allow gear/suits to be useful in more than one narrowly defined battledfield role).
- Teamwork: The description of sniping you present in the OP (and prior posts) is very detached from squad/team adaptive play. Yes killing X number of opposing players while being killed only Y number of times provides some benefit to the team but what about players who's use of sniper gear is outside that bandwidth, how do your balance suggestions and concerns accommodate their ability to play a more team orinted role (one which would necessitate a net increase of risk as compared to what what you describe in both your 'ease of use' and 'safety' sections.
To reiterate something I've said in your threads before (and thus far never gotten a direct response to). As you state yourself you're an experienced sniper who's attained high rankings on the leaderboards in more than one build. Clearly that experience affords you some perspective an insight which others will not have, however it also means definitively that proper balance cannot use your experiences as a baseline because you are not an average player. (Note: saying proper balance cannot be based around you =/= saying your feedback is invalid or that you shouldn't post. Just so we're 100% clear on that.
EDIT:
One more question.
In your perception what are the numbers as which a sniper would be "properly balanced". In other words what should the average per match numerical value, for the average sniper, be for the following.
- KDR
- WP
- ISK
- ISK Cost per fit
- Minimum SP investment to be effective
- Median SP investment (to be optimal be still below top Meta)
- Top Flight SP investment (to be among the best of the best)
- How long (in real time hours played) before a player should expect to be an effective sniper
To reiterate, above I am asking for the number that in your perception would be ideal, not an assessment of the numbers as they stand now. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:51:00 -
[12] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:As with your posts regarding sniping prior to Codex I have the following (still unanswered) questions.
- As someone high up the rankings among snipers how do you see your experiences comparing to those of the average sniper?
Did I not answer these questions before? My bad. No hard feelings, I must've genuinely missed them.
I don't think my own experiences are any different. What separates me from someone with a lower position? There's only so many ways one can excel at sitting on a hill, shooting targets off in the distance. Maybe I'm more cautious? Maybe I get a couple more kills and a couple less deaths? Maybe most snipers also run around in Ambush games as infantry using a starter build and die a ton to balance out their sniping? I've played a fair number of FPS games before, and while I generally do fairly well, I'm no kind of amazing FPS player. I don't think my own experiences are significantly different.
Quote:- You've stated in a few posts that sniping has a low skill entry threshold. On the character skill side what is the numeric threshold of Skill Points invested where use of a role/class becomes non-trivial/not "low" any longer? On the player skill side if little player skill is required to be successful as a sniper please outline the method by which someone new to dust/sniping/fps could take up sniping and be effective in the manner you describe (after all if folks can follow your method and rise up the leaderboard that supports your point).
Well, you can snipe just fine with a 100% new character. Last build I made an alt to examine just that idea, of how well one could do sniping with a totally new character. As to how much it'd require that it wouldn't be low, I'm not sure. I don't think this is an important part of the equation, though. My issue with a low skill requirement is specifically relating to player skill.
To that end, sniping requires little more than simply finding a spot you can shoot enemies from and doing just that while not being shot. I made my sniping tips thread last build -- "Sniping tips for the pretty ladies." -- in an effort to see if I could do just as you asked, and write out what I do to hopefully get other people to prove it's as easy as I say. I am not sure whether my guide fell on deaf ears, whether people are simply very reckless and die unnecessarily as a sniper a lot, or what the real disparity actually is.
Quote:- How do you account for maintaining the usefulness of sniping gear for other playstyles outside of the 'mostly stationary unless found, establish kill zone, maintain maximum range' version of sniping as you've described it in other posts? (Note: I'm not interested in a debate regarding what is or is not in fact sniping. The point here is how to allow gear/suits to be useful in more than one narrowly defined battledfield role).
- Teamwork: The description of sniping you present in the OP (and prior posts) is very detached from squad/team adaptive play. Yes killing X number of opposing players while being killed only Y number of times provides some benefit to the team but what about players who's use of sniper gear is outside that bandwidth, how do your balance suggestions and concerns accommodate their ability to play a more team orinted role (one which would necessitate a net increase of risk as compared to what what you describe in both your 'ease of use' and 'safety' sections.
Actually I had my first experience with running around in a squad as a sniper this build, which is how I feel confident in speaking to the ability of sniper rifles to engage targets at relatively close ranges. I don't believe any of the suggestions I've made would significantly impact this form of sniper play. Generally speaking, you will only get one shot on an enemy in an infantry fight before someone else on your team plinks the guy and takes him down. The other use for sniping is, of course, taking out enemy snipers engaging your guys, or dealing with people in a distance. Neither of those functions -- the shooting people up close or engaging distant threats -- would be so detrimentally affected by the changes I've described. You're in a squad so having a tracer wouldn't matter, you can't so easily shoot from standing due to more sway but that's sensible anyway, and you typically only get one shot even now, so cooldown wouldn't make a huge difference.
Overall, I think sniping as an infantry guy running in a squad would be essentially unaffected. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 11:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:One more question. In your perception what are the numbers as which a sniper would be "properly balanced". In other words what should the average per match numerical value, for the average sniper, be for the following.
- KDR
- WP
- ISK
- ISK Cost per fit
- Minimum SP investment to be effective
- Median SP investment (to be optimal be still below top Meta)
- Top Flight SP investment (to be among the best of the best)
- How long (in real time hours played) before a player should expect to be an effective sniper
To reiterate, above I am asking for the number that in your perception would be ideal, not an assessment of the numbers as they stand now.
To answer this I'd need to know the averages for playing as a guy with an assault rifle, running around taking objectives. Sniping should be a little better than such a person in terms of KDR, a little worse in terms of WP. The ISK required should be comparable. The SP requirements are harder to say, because as long as you can use a sniper rifle you can shoot someone in the head from 600 m and kill them, while if you're up close to them your crappier gear will be much more of a factor. The threshold of entry into sniping isn't a major concern for me. |
Avenger 245
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
477
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 14:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.
Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.
a Sniper gaining a huge tacnet signature when the fire then it dies down would be good, players would only notice if they are looking or willing to use thier buddies as bait.
making standing sway a bit more noticable would be good but dont touch crouching sway. |
Mira Adari
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
79
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 15:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:
The Solutions Power of sniping I believe could be addressed by making the time between shots greater. Add something like what HMGs have, where the weapon overheats after every shot and you need to wait a second or two or whatever tests well to shoot again. It is good that we have gotten further away from being able to one-shot everyone. Now give people shot once more time to seek cover.
Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.
Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.
Just no. It might work for your playstyle, but I don't find a cosy spot on a map and not even move an inch the whole match, to take pot shots on targets of opportunity. I am what I would call a frontline sniper. I mainly use the SR when the other team is redlined to target them in their base (nothing like making Knight Snake or other KDR polishing redline snipers from going 0/0 because they are so afraid of dying that they don't move from behind a building even once), or when my team doesn't get into gear and I am fed up with dying again and again, because I am one of the few people who try to even attack objectives. I am often within the range of an AR and if I miss repeatedly, I die.
Without a second shot fast after the first, I wouldn't get any kills at all with the lower damage of SRs, apart from the random headshot. Also I am a too big a target for assaults already for my tastes. With a lower RoF and a tracer my survivability would plummet to almost zero. The existing sway mechanic already forces me to stay still for a second to get a accurate shot. Add constant sway and I would be unable to hit a tank on the distances involved, especially with a controller.
The tracer and maybe a bit more recoil would be what I could accept...mainly because I would make my life also a bit easier when counter sniping. And from my standpoint, the enemy already knows where I am, so the tracer wouldn't really hurt me, but would be a great deterrent for people just sitting in one spot the whole match... |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 16:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
No, you'd still get kills. I know that from experience. I... pretty well never killed anyone with two consecutive shots being a "frontline sniper", but usually someone else has either done some damage to them and your one shot is fatal, or you shoot them once with a rifle and then pull out your pistol, or something. Regardless of how it'd go, you're wrong to say you'd never get kills. You'd definitely get kills. Fewer kills? Yeah, probably.
Avenger 245 wrote:a Sniper gaining a huge tacnet signature when the fire then it dies down would be good, players would only notice if they are looking or willing to use thier buddies as bait.
making standing sway a bit more noticable would be good but dont touch crouching sway.
That'd probably be okay too. I like tracers because they're so much more obvious that it's a sniper up there, but a signature radius bloom when shooting isn't a bad idea by any means. |
GOLD LEAD3R
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 17:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: [ Power: Sniping damage was nerfed, but what won't kill you in one will more than likely kill you in two. Sniping still offers a way for players to easily get kills from enormous distances. What's more, sniping does not become impotent as a means of combat until the sniper is within very close range of the enemy. Even at relatively modest distances of 25 m, a sniper can rapidly land hits on enemies from standing. No other weapon offers the kind of power and versatility a sniper rifle does.
I've sniped, and I've played a logi. I can tell you, having been on both sides (and as someone who is average- a 2.5 kdr last build) if I am a sniper, any time an opponent is under 50m an AR owns me. Especially because one shot will most likely not kill the opponent, coupled with the fact that as soon as you're hit once by an AR, your scope goes bat**** crazy, and you have little hope for hitting your target again. If I'm a logi and a sniper is under 50m, he's dead. I have never once died to a sniper at that distance. In fact, it's laughable when they keep shooting at me.
Your point about killing in two shots. Well, for a sniper, they should be able to kill in one shot, but as it is, most snipers will need to take 2-4 shots for an assault. That's too nerfed, imho, but I'll live with it if I decide to go back to sniping. A further nerf? I think that's a bit extreme.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:
Safety: With great power also comes great safety. At a base range of 600 m, sniping allows players to sit on a hill somewhere, unseen from most enemies, unreachable apart from by other snipers, and posing great challenges to anyone with a desire to engage the sniper in combat and kill them using something other than another sniper rifle. The safety with which snipers operate contrasts rather sharply with the life of generic infantry, who are prey for every force at work in the game. And yet, for the danger that comes with being infantry, no extra power awaits. They are fodder for people like snipers, whose only serious worry is other snipers.
And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:
Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.
I have to disagree again. Sniping doesn't have much power. They are high in KDR, but as you mentioned, that doesn't mean anything. Snipers in any game should have the highest KDR, because a smart sniper will only break cover to go for a kill. That's the nature of the game.
But I think you're missing the biggest point. Do a lot of people snipe? Some games, yeah. And what happens every time I play a game against a team that has too many snipers? They lose. Actually, they get crushed. What happens when I play on a team with too many snipers? We lose. Having a lot of snipers is great if you're the opponent. Why wouldn't you want that? It's an easy win.
Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that.
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 18:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
GOLD LEAD3R wrote:I've sniped, and I've played a logi. I can tell you, having been on both sides (and as someone who is average- a 2.5 kdr last build) if I am a sniper, any time an opponent is under 50m an AR owns me. Especially because one shot will most likely not kill the opponent, coupled with the fact that as soon as you're hit once by an AR, your scope goes bat**** crazy, and you have little hope for hitting your target again. If I'm a logi and a sniper is under 50m, he's dead. I have never once died to a sniper at that distance. In fact, it's laughable when they keep shooting at me.
I've killed a lot of people at 50 m or less with a sniper rifle. It's easier doing so when you have allies around, as you're not necessarily being shot at yourself and can take your time a bit more, but even 1v1 or 1v2 I've found sniper rifles at close range to be very strong. This is all just anecdotal stuff and kind of a side-issue anyway, though, so let's not dwell on it.
Quote:Your point about killing in two shots. Well, for a sniper, they should be able to kill in one shot, but as it is, most snipers will need to take 2-4 shots for an assault. That's too nerfed, imho, but I'll live with it if I decide to go back to sniping. A further nerf? I think that's a bit extreme.
Last build we could one-shot people much more easily. This build we can't. I prefer this build to a great degree. Instantly dying to someone you didn't even know was there is an unpleasant experience. The game would be better off if that scenario were as infrequent as possible. So, headshots only. The further adjustments I suggest are about making sniping a more challenging role. Not something I'd like to call a nerf exactly, although I guess technically it would be.
Quote:And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry.
The role of a sniper is to engage people at long range. That's about it. There isn't any requirement that sniping be one of the best ways to make ISK in the game, on account of how safe it is to do and thus how little you spend each match on gear.
And people really don't stand still out in the open. Most Dust players are probably experienced FPS players in general. I see this sometimes, people instructing the victims of snipers to not stand around, but despite having killed a couple thousand people with a sniper rifle the only people you can count on to be just standing around are, ironically, the snipers themselves.
The comment about fun is relevant. Stuff should be fun. Game systems which are really annoying for some players, even if they're fun for others or "realistic", are to be avoided. Stuff like spawn camping is a good example. Being suddenly killed by an enemy half a kilometre away isn't fun to be on the receiving end of. And "realism" or whatever isn't a sensible answer to that very real issue.
Quote:Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that.
You remember I play as a sniper, right? |
Bojo The Mighty
Bojo's School of the Trades
432
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 19:02:00 -
[19] - Quote
If you've ever shot a real gun, like most Americans, you'd understand that long range rifles have a good amount of kick and a fairly powerful. However, since you cannot go prone and stabilize such a huge weapon (it's like almost equal in length compared to your characters height) there should be legitimate sway when you are crouched. Don't get me wrong, I snipe my fair share, I love it's power, but it needs an equalizer, like the first guy said. Add Sway (hurts me to say)
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FORTUNE96
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 19:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
I play as a frontline sniper and a "camping one" snipers are supposed to be campers and nerfing this because being shot at is no fun is ridiculous maybe we should nerf ARs because its no fun being shot at by them? |
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Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 20:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:GOLD LEAD3R wrote:Quote:And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry. The role of a sniper is to engage people at long range. That's about it. There isn't any requirement that sniping be one of the best ways to make ISK in the game, on account of how safe it is to do and thus how little you spend each match on gear. And people really don't stand still out in the open. Most Dust players are probably experienced FPS players in general. I see this sometimes, people instructing the victims of snipers to not stand around, but despite having killed a couple thousand people with a sniper rifle the only people you can count on to be just standing around are, ironically, the snipers themselves. The comment about fun is relevant. Stuff should be fun. Game systems which are really annoying for some players, even if they're fun for others or "realistic", are to be avoided. Stuff like spawn camping is a good example. Being suddenly killed by an enemy half a kilometre away isn't fun to be on the receiving end of. And "realism" or whatever isn't a sensible answer to that very real issue.
Yeah, you're totally right about ISK. But if you want to earn war points, there are a lot of easier ways to do it. It's not overpowered from that standpoint. KDR? Yeah, but not war points, which is another reason I don't think it's OP.
About standing around- anecdotal as well, so it's not something to go back and forth over, but you play sniper and I have been playing logi, and I can tell you that I rarely get sniped. I guess I don't understand how it's that much of a problem if I (and average player) haven't run into it being annoying.
Quote:Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that.
You remember I play as a sniper, right? [/quote]
Yes, your Fivetimes toon plays as a sniper. But there are some on this forum who have alts, and use those alts as a means of nerfing weapons they eventually will not play come launch. This is the EVE universe, after all. Not outright accusing you, but I'm not ruling it out. You wanted a nerf last build, but now, for some reason, that wasn't enough, even though you say you play as a sniper. That seems strange to me....
But you didn't address my biggest point: Snipers do not ruin gameplay. Having too many snipers on a team has never won a game, thus the sniper is not OP. If it was OP like other things people have complained about, the snipers would be the deciding factor in most battles (see HAV's, etc), but they're not. And in fact, the number of snipers is directly proportional to how likely a team is to lose. A couple of good snipers on a team full of good infantry can do well, but a team full of good snipers will lose every time. I think we can both agree on that. Anyway, all of this means that snipers are not OP.
I play an AR logi and an assault sniper (and plan on playing that at launch), so I'm coming at it from both sides. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 20:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
FORTUNE96 wrote:I play as a frontline sniper and a "camping one" snipers are supposed to be campers and nerfing this because being shot at is no fun is ridiculous maybe we should nerf ARs because its no fun being shot at by them?
You might want to take a minute to actually read my post so that you can find some things I actually said with which to disagree. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 20:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vincam Velmoriar wrote:Yeah, you're totally right about ISK. But if you want to earn war points, there are a lot of easier ways to do it. It's not overpowered from that standpoint. KDR? Yeah, but not war points, which is another reason I don't think it's OP.
About standing around- anecdotal as well, so it's not something to go back and forth over, but you play sniper and I have been playing logi, and I can tell you that I rarely get sniped. I guess I don't understand how it's that much of a problem if I (and average player) haven't run into it being annoying.
War Points are something I always lag behind it, but I don't particularly care about that. It's just a metric for other people to judge their performance by, whereas snipers would use KDR instead. But sniping being highly inexpensive by comparison is a real issue that speaks to the ease at which sniping tends to occur. It's that ease I'd see done away with. The ISK stuff will balance out if sniping is made more difficult and dangerous.
Quote:Yes, your Fivetimes toon plays as a sniper. But there are some on this forum who have alts, and use those alts as a means of nerfing weapons they eventually will not play come launch. This is the EVE universe, after all. Not outright accusing you, but I'm not ruling it out. You wanted a nerf last build, but now, for some reason, that wasn't enough, even though you say you play as a sniper. That seems strange to me....
It wasn't enough this build because my main points weren't addressed with this nerf. The only thing that changed is the ability to one-shot people was made far less common. A victory for Dust players of all stripes, certainly, but not definitive, and only one of the things I'd advocated for last build.
Regardless, you need to give CCP more respect. They no doubt have the ability to track stats about weapon usage and etc to a great degree. Although sniping is an imbalance I experience regularly and, thus, is something I speak out against, at the end of the day there are people at CCP more informed and better at deciding what is good for Dust than myself. They're the ones who are ultimately making the decisions about what to nerf or buff or whatever. I don't think any single person on this forum has ever been responsible for something being nerfed. It could be that the opinion of someone here happened to align with the opinion of CCP devs, but they aren't going to just do whatever we want them to to their game. Big, multimillion dollar projects like Dust aren't going to make decisions based on the ramblings of some random ******* like me. The only thing I hope to accomplish is to maybe get the CCP people thinking a bit more about where sniping is, and where it ought to be.
Quote:But you didn't address my biggest point: Snipers do not ruin gameplay. Having too many snipers on a team has never won a game, thus the sniper is not OP. If it was OP like other things people have complained about, the snipers would be the deciding factor in most battles (see HAV's, etc), but they're not. And in fact, the number of snipers is directly proportional to how likely a team is to lose. A couple of good snipers on a team full of good infantry can do well, but a team full of good snipers will lose every time. I think we can both agree on that. Anyway, all of this means that snipers are not OP.
I don't agree with the conclusion, that it means snipers aren't OP if a team full of them won't win a game. Snipers just aren't about taking objectives. That doesn't mean they aren't too powerful at killing infantry given their player skill/ISK requirements. And if sniping is too powerful for what you put into it, then while it may not ruin the game in this case, it'll be enough of a detriment to it that it'll do more harm than good. Which doesn't sound as dramatic as it ruining the game, but still warrants a look. |
Vincam Velmoriar
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
103
|
Posted - 2012.10.08 22:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: War Points are something I always lag behind it, but I don't particularly care about that. It's just a metric for other people to judge their performance by, whereas snipers would use KDR instead. But sniping being highly inexpensive by comparison is a real issue that speaks to the ease at which sniping tends to occur. It's that ease I'd see done away with. The ISK stuff will balance out if sniping is made more difficult and dangerous.
So, you agree that snipers lag behind in war points? Good, I think we're getting somewhere. You can get way more war points on the ground hacking objectives, turrets, CRU's, Depots, reviving, repairing, and getting an occasional kill than you can sitting up on a hill taking pot shots.
All of that being said, we know (as CCP has stated) that war points, not number of kills, is what determines both ISK and SP. Therefore, because snipers get less war points, as we both have said, then snipers will get less SP and less ISK. So the ease at which someone can snipe is more than made up by the fact that they won't get much in return. Thus, it's pretty balanced (and by the way, I'm not sure if you're talking about ISK or SP, in terms of being cheap, but my logi build costs about the same as my sniper build, and as far as SP goes, it's the same as assault, to where you can't level up damage until you spec the sway- AR's being spray).
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: It wasn't enough this build because my main points weren't addressed with this nerf. The only thing that changed is the ability to one-shot people was made far less common. A victory for Dust players of all stripes, certainly, but not definitive, and only one of the things I'd advocated for last build.
So one shotting is less common. Agreed. If they went with a further nerf, then snipers wouldn't get any kills at all. If we know it takes at least 2 shots to kill most infantry, and after the first shot the sway is so bad that you can't get off another, then 99% percent of the snipers, including myself, would never get a kill.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Regardless, you need to give CCP more respect. They no doubt have the ability to track stats about weapon usage and etc to a great degree. Although sniping is an imbalance I experience regularly and, thus, is something I speak out against, at the end of the day there are people at CCP more informed and better at deciding what is good for Dust than myself. They're the ones who are ultimately making the decisions about what to nerf or buff or whatever. I don't think any single person on this forum has ever been responsible for something being nerfed. It could be that the opinion of someone here happened to align with the opinion of CCP devs, but they aren't going to just do whatever we want them to to their game. Big, multimillion dollar projects like Dust aren't going to make decisions based on the ramblings of some random ******* like me. The only thing I hope to accomplish is to maybe get the CCP people thinking a bit more about where sniping is, and where it ought to be.
I need to give CCP more respect? You're the one making up the thread. Scratching my head on that comment.
And yes, they have the ability to track stats, and I'm pretty certain those stats show that the sniper is not OP. Maybe they don't. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but you're saying you're a sniper and it's too hard for infantry. I'm saying I play half the time as infantry, and it hasn't been a problem for me. Anecdotal on both our parts, so it's a wash I guess.
It's just strange that I've only seen 2 threads about sniping being too poweful, and they both come from you. If you were an AR user, it wouldn't be that strange, but you're the first person to come on here and ask- no beg- for a nerf for the role that you play, not once, but twice. CCP nerfed it, which is what you wanted, and now you're calling for another nerf. You say you're playing as a sniper. I have no doubt. But the question is, will you be playing as a sniper come launch? Can you see how strange this might look from a casual observer's point of view? Asking for a second nerf after there already has been one for the gun that you use? I guess I just don't get it. Either you're the most benevolent gamer I've ever come in contact with, or something is afoot.
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: I don't agree with the conclusion, that it means snipers aren't OP if a team full of them won't win a game. Snipers just aren't about taking objectives. That doesn't mean they aren't too powerful at killing infantry given their player skill/ISK requirements. And if sniping is too powerful for what you put into it, then while it may not ruin the game in this case, it'll be enough of a detriment to it that it'll do more harm than good. Which doesn't sound as dramatic as it ruining the game, but still warrants a look.
See my top argument, but you yourself said you lag behind in war points, and you are one of the top five in KDR (which is what a sniper is judged by). Since war points = SP and ISK, that means the players who aren't as good as you (and that means 99.9999% of the players) will lag even further behind in war points than you, thus lagging further behind in ISK and SP. This, then, disproves the argument that the average sniper will get too much ISK or SP.
I think we both know it doesn't ruin the game. Annoying for people on the ground? Sure. But so is an AR rifle when I'm trying to sneak around. Nothing's perfect. But what I'm hearing is that it's annoying, and I just don't think that's a good reason.
I'm sure CCP will give it another look, but I don't see any other threads about sniping being OP, yet there are at least 8 or 9 threads on the scout suit being underpowered. If I'm CCP, I would tend to think a bunch of threads on a subject more likely signifies an issue, as opposed to one. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 01:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
My responses will be given in the same order as the item they're directed at :) (can't quote character limit)
No worries, those threads did get pretty epic so I can totally see how they might have been missed (I believe you were debating with Sleepy Zan at the time).
I'll give the thread you mention another read through and try to apply its ideas with my militia sniper fit, I'll see how it works for me and report back with details. To provide context my Player Skill is likely on the low end. I've enjoyed sniping in other games but the last FPS I played with any seriousness/length was Unreal Tournament 2004, so one could say I'm rusty at best :P Regarding Character skill, I haven't upped any of the damage output skills related to sniping so my results will be pretty much all me (base gear, base skills).
I can see for the in squad roles you describe how your suggestions wouldn't alter much, thanks for the explanation on that front. I suppose my own sniper experiences within Dust have been in the "mid" range? The times I run sniper I'm usually running with my squad but not directly among them. Setting up Overwatch points either to provide covering fire as they advance or to protect their six. This requires being highly mobile and a lot of "shoot then move" behavior (personally I don't try to 'hip fire' a sniper rifle unless bull-rushed by someone who catches me off guard). so whatever biases I may have are drawn from there.
My personal experiences with running sniper fits generally play out in one of two ways. Either I can execute well enough to protect my squad and we break through (I'll net 1-5 kills/assists on average in these instances) or I'll be unable to find the right position etc. and be essentially useless. My sense is that when averaged together these two states are roughly analogous to the assault players (but I'm aware that my lone experiences 'do not a data set make'). Perhaps the best way to describe what I do is Sniper/Scout (not just the gear but the actual role). Providing Intel, remaining highly mobile, giving covering fire and taking targets of opportunity.
I feel like I was going somewhere with that but now for the life of me I cannot recall where that was :P so I'll call it here and post back with more findings when I've run a few matches going pure sniper/mulled the issue over some more.
Thanks for the response, Cross
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Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 01:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote: Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.
i knew someone would complain about snipers soon enough. even as nerfed as snipers became the sniper is all about position. with the crappy visuals you can spot a sniper on a mountain in their red zone and fire assault rifles into them without a problem. and as for your "Nerf snipz this way plz" is plane ridiculous why on earth should a round that has been propelled by magnets have a tracer that would also completely nullify the already pointless profile skills making them a waste of points. with assault rifles already dominating medium rage and even HMG can gun down snipers without issue i don't see a problem. and as for the 1 hit kills i can snipe a heavy in the face and not even take a portion of health down. they can eat the round to the face and it wont do anything of course i don't have prototype sniper rifles and level 5 proficiency . when the shield and armor hardeners come around snipers are going to be the only ones that can kill them. |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.10.09 03:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
Vincam Velmoriar wrote:So, you agree that snipers lag behind in war points? Good, I think we're getting somewhere. You can get way more war points on the ground hacking objectives, turrets, CRU's, Depots, reviving, repairing, and getting an occasional kill than you can sitting up on a hill taking pot shots.
All of that being said, we know (as CCP has stated) that war points, not number of kills, is what determines both ISK and SP. Therefore, because snipers get less war points, as we both have said, then snipers will get less SP and less ISK. So the ease at which someone can snipe is more than made up by the fact that they won't get much in return. Thus, it's pretty balanced (and by the way, I'm not sure if you're talking about ISK or SP, in terms of being cheap, but my logi build costs about the same as my sniper build, and as far as SP goes, it's the same as assault, to where you can't level up damage until you spec the sway- AR's being spray).
This is an interesting point. I wasn't aware that this is how SP/ISK gain is calculated (at least in part) if what you say is true.
Quote:So one shotting is less common. Agreed. If they went with a further nerf, then snipers wouldn't get any kills at all. If we know it takes at least 2 shots to kill most infantry, and after the first shot the sway is so bad that you can't get off another, then 99% percent of the snipers, including myself, would never get a kill.
Yes, I'm fine with the power of snipers being such that it takes two hits to drop someone at full health. That's about where I'd want it to go. My only issue is that, even using a charge rifle, I can still kill a number of people crossing an open area before they reach the other side. The map with the skyfire cannon, or whatever it's called, I've killed what I guess was an entire squad crossing the gap from Point A to the central structure together with a couple other (crappy) snipers. I hate to see that. I hate seeing people get just plain shut down like that. It actually bothers me a lot when I eliminate what looks like a
Quote:I need to give CCP more respect? You're the one making up the thread. Scratching my head on that comment.
As I said, I'm trying to raise an issue to the front of consciousness. I'm not so presumptuous that I think presenting my thoughts on something would be enough to get that something changed. Being suspected of having this character as an alt with the sole purpose of getting snipers nerfed is what I'm saying you need to give CCP more credit over. They aren't going to nerf anything just because I or anyone else made a post.
Quote:And yes, they have the ability to track stats, and I'm pretty certain those stats show that the sniper is not OP. Maybe they don't. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but you're saying you're a sniper and it's too hard for infantry. I'm saying I play half the time as infantry, and it hasn't been a problem for me. Anecdotal on both our parts, so it's a wash I guess.
I'm saying snipers are too strong for the ease at which being a sniper is presented to people. I imagine the people I'm shooting are getting frustrated, and although I can't speak for other players specifically I can say that in general getting shut down by snipers is an unpleasant experience based on my own history playing FPS games.
Quote:It's just strange that I've only seen 2 threads about sniping being too poweful, and they both come from you. If you were an AR user, it wouldn't be that strange, but you're the first person to come on here and ask- no beg- for a nerf for the role that you play, not once, but twice. CCP nerfed it, which is what you wanted, and now you're calling for another nerf. You say you're playing as a sniper. I have no doubt. But the question is, will you be playing as a sniper come launch? Can you see how strange this might look from a casual observer's point of view? Asking for a second nerf after there already has been one for the gun that you use? I guess I just don't get it. Either you're the most benevolent gamer I've ever come in contact with, or something is afoot.
I play a sniper almost exclusively. It's the only thing I can really speak on. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 03:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
What nerf are you snipers QQing about? A slight damage decrease is nothing to cry about. It's a railgun so it should have some charge time if should my forge/small railgun also be semi auto and invisible? |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 03:42:00 -
[29] - Quote
STB Vermaak Doe wrote:What nerf are you snipers QQing about? A slight damage decrease is nothing to cry about. It's a railgun so it should have some charge time if should my forge/small railgun also be semi auto and invisible? the only thing that is being QQed is OP and whining about how sniping is ruining the fun for him. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
|
Posted - 2012.10.09 03:45:00 -
[30] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:STB Vermaak Doe wrote:What nerf are you snipers QQing about? A slight damage decrease is nothing to cry about. It's a railgun so it should have some charge time if should my forge/small railgun also be semi auto and invisible? the only thing that is being QQed is OP and whining about how sniping is ruining the fun for him. He's a sniper and that's bs, the other snipers claimed they've been nerfed after a slight chang,they're already the p*ssies of most games and now they've made themselves look worse |
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