So, just to preface, I am a sniper. That's what I play and have been playing nearly exclusively the past couple builds. Right now I'm #5 or 6 on the KDR leader board. So please don't accuse me of not knowing what it's like to be a sniper or whatever and therefore my opinion isn't valid. And yes, I know KDR doesn't mean anything and etc, I'm just saying that I'm not inexperienced at sniping, and am simply trying to be honest about my chosen method of play. I'm fairly sure RankRancid is also a sniper, and his KDR is even higher, being #2 or so. I would suspect that the majority of non-boosting people atop the KDR leader board are in fact snipers.

State of Sniping
Sniping was nerfed in Codex such that, between the Weaponry decrease and the sniping skills damage decrease (3% -> 2% per level, and 5% -> 3% per level respectively), snipers do a total of 15% less damage this build compared to last. The result is that, unless you're in a scout suit or were shot in the head, you probably haven't been one-shot-killed much if at all from full health since the update. Rejoice.

However, sniping is still very popular, and for good reason. Its popularity carries with it the unfortunate effect of making infantry combat less enjoyable for the people playing infantry. A minority of players, playing sniper, are making the game less enjoyable for the majority of remaining people, who themselves are running around on foot being shot by snipers. I believe that, on the basis of pleasing most players, sniping should therefore be made less safe, less powerful, and more skill-demanding to play, so as to reduce the number of snipers and their annoyance factor for everyone else.

The Power of Sniping
Despite the damage decrease, sniping is still one of if not the most powerful way to fight on foot, due to the following reasons:

Power: Sniping damage was nerfed, but what won't kill you in one will more than likely kill you in two. Sniping still offers a way for players to easily get kills from enormous distances. What's more, sniping does not become impotent as a means of combat until the sniper is within very close range of the enemy. Even at relatively modest distances of 25 m, a sniper can rapidly land hits on enemies from standing. No other weapon offers the kind of power and versatility a sniper rifle does.

Safety: With great power also comes great safety. At a base range of 600 m, sniping allows players to sit on a hill somewhere, unseen from most enemies, unreachable apart from by other snipers, and posing great challenges to anyone with a desire to engage the sniper in combat and kill them using something other than another sniper rifle. The safety with which snipers operate contrasts rather sharply with the life of generic infantry, who are prey for every force at work in the game. And yet, for the danger that comes with being infantry, no extra power awaits. They are fodder for people like snipers, whose only serious worry is other snipers.

Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.

The Solutions
Power of sniping I believe could be addressed by making the time between shots greater. Add something like what HMGs have, where the weapon overheats after every shot and you need to wait a second or two or whatever tests well to shoot again. It is good that we have gotten further away from being able to one-shot everyone. Now give people shot once more time to seek cover.

Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.

Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.

if you are picked off then you should grab a rifle and scan the mountains and buildings

Maybe instead of me grabbing a rifle and scanning the mountains and buildings you could read the first ******* sentence of that huge post I made which you so kindly quoted for everyone in its entirety.

Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.

This point is highlighted but I want to point out that you got the reason for the ease of use correct but not entirely complete.

No sway is a problem. But the bigger problem is lack of legitimate recoil. Sure, your rifle bounces up. But it returns to the -exact same spot- making follow up shots far too easy. If anything needs to be changed about sniper rifles, it is this. Travel time for shots would be nice. More sway would be nice. But recoil actually mattering is a must. Sniping needs to be at least somewhat challenging to do well. Like the OP said. It is far too easy.

I suspect once gunships and fighters are buzzing around, we snipers will be scared squirrels hiding and diving and running to cover more than camping and plinking.

Now onto the overheating thing, As it is a feasable thing, you seem to not realize that the sniper rifles are semi automatic, and I think the last time a semi automatic rifle overheated was never, now this isnt COD or BF3 but the recoil in BF3 and COD (here come the trolls) makes sniping alot harder as it flips the scope sight up on purpose making it harder to refind your target thus making you have to manage alot more.

I do want to suggest that forcing you to have a designated spotter (ie someone with like sensing binocs that have to scan targets for you as compared to being able to sweep and see targets would make the sniper a harder class to be, like making the sniper class have very short range sensors and making it so someone else has to assist you, there fore also giving you protection and making teamwork happen instead of people just sitting around not really gaining any skill playing as a sniper class)

tl;dr

One more question.

In your perception what are the numbers as which a sniper would be "properly balanced".
In other words what should the average per match numerical value, for the average sniper, be for the following.

• KDR
• WP
• ISK
• ISK Cost per fit
• Minimum SP investment to be effective
• Median SP investment (to be optimal be still below top Meta)
• Top Flight SP investment (to be among the best of the best)
• How long (in real time hours played) before a player should expect to be an effective sniper

To reiterate, above I am asking for the number that in your perception would be ideal, not an assessment of the numbers as they stand now.

Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.

Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.

The Solutions
Power of sniping I believe could be addressed by making the time between shots greater. Add something like what HMGs have, where the weapon overheats after every shot and you need to wait a second or two or whatever tests well to shoot again. It is good that we have gotten further away from being able to one-shot everyone. Now give people shot once more time to seek cover.

Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.

Ease of use could be addressed by adding permanent sway even when crouched, and making standing sway much more pronounced. Demand more skill from snipers, and more stray shots will occur, making sniping both weaker and more dangerous with tracers added.

a Sniper gaining a huge tacnet signature when the fire then it dies down would be good, players would only notice if they are looking or willing to use thier buddies as bait.

making standing sway a bit more noticable would be good but dont touch crouching sway.

[
Power: Sniping damage was nerfed, but what won't kill you in one will more than likely kill you in two. Sniping still offers a way for players to easily get kills from enormous distances. What's more, sniping does not become impotent as a means of combat until the sniper is within very close range of the enemy. Even at relatively modest distances of 25 m, a sniper can rapidly land hits on enemies from standing. No other weapon offers the kind of power and versatility a sniper rifle does.

Safety: With great power also comes great safety. At a base range of 600 m, sniping allows players to sit on a hill somewhere, unseen from most enemies, unreachable apart from by other snipers, and posing great challenges to anyone with a desire to engage the sniper in combat and kill them using something other than another sniper rifle. The safety with which snipers operate contrasts rather sharply with the life of generic infantry, who are prey for every force at work in the game. And yet, for the danger that comes with being infantry, no extra power awaits. They are fodder for people like snipers, whose only serious worry is other snipers.

Ease of Use: The final bit, which plays into the other two points, is that sniping is very easy to do. When crouched, the reticule holds totally steady. Even standing the sway is minor and easily compensated for. There is no bullet travel time, and no bullet drop. One need only put the dot over the target and pull the trigger. As well, the tactical considerations infantry and vehicles have are muted for snipers. Not nearly as much consideration for proper movement, and just proper tactics in general. Only sitting, shooting, and avoiding enemy sniper fire for the most part. For the power sniping has, it demands very little of players who engage in it.

I've sniped, and I've played a logi. I can tell you, having been on both sides (and as someone who is average- a 2.5 kdr last build) if I am a sniper, any time an opponent is under 50m an AR owns me. Especially because one shot will most likely not kill the opponent, coupled with the fact that as soon as you're hit once by an AR, your scope goes bat**** crazy, and you have little hope for hitting your target again. If I'm a logi and a sniper is under 50m, he's dead. I have never once died to a sniper at that distance. In fact, it's laughable when they keep shooting at me.

Your point about killing in two shots. Well, for a sniper, they should be able to kill in one shot, but as it is, most snipers will need to take 2-4 shots for an assault. That's too nerfed, imho, but I'll live with it if I decide to go back to sniping. A further nerf? I think that's a bit extreme.

And your point is....? Not trying to be a jerk, but that is the role of a sniper. Anywhere. Trying not to be seen and take out guys who have no idea where the sniper is. That's the point. The argument that it makes it "less fun" for infantry is a bit silly. People die in battle, and it's not fun, but that's part of the game. Not to mention, when I run a logi, I maybe die once a match to a sniper. I mean, if people are standing out in the open they deserved to be shot. They're really not a problem, coming from someone who plays infantry.

Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that.

Sniper play is fine and does not need to be changed. The nerf on this build is a happy medium between what you want and what snipers want. I'd say thank CCP and leave it at that.

I play as a frontline sniper and a "camping one" snipers are supposed to be campers and nerfing this because being shot at is no fun is ridiculous maybe we should nerf ARs because its no fun being shot at by them?

Yeah, you're totally right about ISK. But if you want to earn war points, there are a lot of easier ways to do it. It's not overpowered from that standpoint. KDR? Yeah, but not war points, which is another reason I don't think it's OP.

About standing around- anecdotal as well, so it's not something to go back and forth over, but you play sniper and I have been playing logi, and I can tell you that I rarely get sniped. I guess I don't understand how it's that much of a problem if I (and average player) haven't run into it being annoying.

Yes, your Fivetimes toon plays as a sniper. But there are some on this forum who have alts, and use those alts as a means of nerfing weapons they eventually will not play come launch. This is the EVE universe, after all. Not outright accusing you, but I'm not ruling it out. You wanted a nerf last build, but now, for some reason, that wasn't enough, even though you say you play as a sniper. That seems strange to me....

But you didn't address my biggest point: Snipers do not ruin gameplay. Having too many snipers on a team has never won a game, thus the sniper is not OP. If it was OP like other things people have complained about, the snipers would be the deciding factor in most battles (see HAV's, etc), but they're not. And in fact, the number of snipers is directly proportional to how likely a team is to lose. A couple of good snipers on a team full of good infantry can do well, but a team full of good snipers will lose every time. I think we can both agree on that. Anyway, all of this means that snipers are not OP.

War Points are something I always lag behind it, but I don't particularly care about that. It's just a metric for other people to judge their performance by, whereas snipers would use KDR instead. But sniping being highly inexpensive by comparison is a real issue that speaks to the ease at which sniping tends to occur. It's that ease I'd see done away with. The ISK stuff will balance out if sniping is made more difficult and dangerous.

It wasn't enough this build because my main points weren't addressed with this nerf. The only thing that changed is the ability to one-shot people was made far less common. A victory for Dust players of all stripes, certainly, but not definitive, and only one of the things I'd advocated for last build.

Regardless, you need to give CCP more respect. They no doubt have the ability to track stats about weapon usage and etc to a great degree. Although sniping is an imbalance I experience regularly and, thus, is something I speak out against, at the end of the day there are people at CCP more informed and better at deciding what is good for Dust than myself. They're the ones who are ultimately making the decisions about what to nerf or buff or whatever. I don't think any single person on this forum has ever been responsible for something being nerfed. It could be that the opinion of someone here happened to align with the opinion of CCP devs, but they aren't going to just do whatever we want them to to their game. Big, multimillion dollar projects like Dust aren't going to make decisions based on the ramblings of some random ******* like me. The only thing I hope to accomplish is to maybe get the CCP people thinking a bit more about where sniping is, and where it ought to be.

I don't agree with the conclusion, that it means snipers aren't OP if a team full of them won't win a game. Snipers just aren't about taking objectives. That doesn't mean they aren't too powerful at killing infantry given their player skill/ISK requirements. And if sniping is too powerful for what you put into it, then while it may not ruin the game in this case, it'll be enough of a detriment to it that it'll do more harm than good. Which doesn't sound as dramatic as it ruining the game, but still warrants a look.

Safety could be addressed by adding a bright, blue-white tracer to sniper rifles, not unlike ship-mounted railguns in EVE have. Telegraphing one's presence everytime the trigger is pulled would go a long way toward helping enemy snipers, vehicles and pioneering infantry hunt down and kill snipers.

So, you agree that snipers lag behind in war points? Good, I think we're getting somewhere. You can get way more war points on the ground hacking objectives, turrets, CRU's, Depots, reviving, repairing, and getting an occasional kill than you can sitting up on a hill taking pot shots.

All of that being said, we know (as CCP has stated) that war points, not number of kills, is what determines both ISK and SP. Therefore, because snipers get less war points, as we both have said, then snipers will get less SP and less ISK. So the ease at which someone can snipe is more than made up by the fact that they won't get much in return. Thus, it's pretty balanced (and by the way, I'm not sure if you're talking about ISK or SP, in terms of being cheap, but my logi build costs about the same as my sniper build, and as far as SP goes, it's the same as assault, to where you can't level up damage until you spec the sway- AR's being spray).

So one shotting is less common. Agreed. If they went with a further nerf, then snipers wouldn't get any kills at all. If we know it takes at least 2 shots to kill most infantry, and after the first shot the sway is so bad that you can't get off another, then 99% percent of the snipers, including myself, would never get a kill.

I need to give CCP more respect? You're the one making up the thread. Scratching my head on that comment.

And yes, they have the ability to track stats, and I'm pretty certain those stats show that the sniper is not OP. Maybe they don't. I've been wrong before and will be wrong again, but you're saying you're a sniper and it's too hard for infantry. I'm saying I play half the time as infantry, and it hasn't been a problem for me. Anecdotal on both our parts, so it's a wash I guess.

It's just strange that I've only seen 2 threads about sniping being too poweful, and they both come from you. If you were an AR user, it wouldn't be that strange, but you're the first person to come on here and ask- no beg- for a nerf for the role that you play, not once, but twice. CCP nerfed it, which is what you wanted, and now you're calling for another nerf. You say you're playing as a sniper. I have no doubt. But the question is, will you be playing as a sniper come launch? Can you see how strange this might look from a casual observer's point of view? Asking for a second nerf after there already has been one for the gun that you use? I guess I just don't get it. Either you're the most benevolent gamer I've ever come in contact with, or something is afoot.

What nerf are you snipers QQing about? A slight damage decrease is nothing to cry about. It's a railgun so it should have some charge time if should my forge/small railgun also be semi auto and invisible?

the only thing that is being QQed is OP and whining about how sniping is ruining the fun for him.

the only thing that is being QQed is OP and whining about how sniping is ruining the fun for him.

He's a sniper and that's bs, the other snipers claimed they've been nerfed after a slight chang,they're already the p*ssies of most games and now they've made themselves look worse

no more different than an invincible vehicle that runs as soon as the shields are gone. or the ineffective people that hide behind the lines armor repping a truck bombarding the front lines with pointless precision strikes that may seem to help the team but end up costing the team the game.

True but at least the vehicle goes to a head on fight, only to be dispatched by the last example

soon snipers are going to be the only thing to take out the soon to be buffed heavy. with armor hardeners they are going to be near impossible to take out unless you have a heavy packer ready to hit him in the face.

i just wish the bug would be fixed so i can actually hit other snipers before they kill teammates.

This is an interesting point. I wasn't aware that this is how SP/ISK gain is calculated (at least in part) if what you say is true.

Yes, it's true. Look at the leaderboard after any match you play. It's all based off of war points, not number of kills. ISK and SP are based off war points as well. CCP said they changed how ISK and SP are handed out for this build, which is great, because it's no longer about KDR, it's about actually helping your team, even if you're dying a lot.

A sniper can go 14-1, but will only get 700 war points. A logi can go 8-9, but will easily get 1300 skill points from hacking, revives, dropping uplinks, etc. The way the SP/ISK is calculated now, snipers don't get **** in terms of SP or ISK. Nerfing them more would just mean taking snipers ouf the game. They're fine, leave them alone. They earn the least WP out of any class as it is.

I agree. Snipers are fine. I'm usually the sniper for my squad and half of my role is countering other snipers. I usually only get a lot of points when the squad leader calls defend orders etc, even when I got plenty of kills. Though I do think it's too easy to "see" your targets through fog and mist in this build. Makes sniping a lot less challenging. Also, railguns should have a plasma trail. The physics make sense and it would look cool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railgun_usnavy_2008.jpg

I agree. Snipers are fine. I'm usually the sniper for my squad and half of my role is countering other snipers. I usually only get a lot of points when the squad leader calls defend orders etc, even when I got plenty of kills. Though I do think it's too easy to "see" your targets through fog and mist in this build. Makes sniping a lot less challenging. Also, railguns should have a plasma trail. The physics make sense and it would look cool: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Railgun_usnavy_2008.jpg