DUST Search - Hit detection still isn't good enough

Ourors wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

I agree that there's a problem, I'm ONLY pointing out that the problem isn't ONLY with hit detection - and in particular pointing out that hit detection ISN'T any worse on Scouts than any other suit.

except that it is, simply because of their higher movement speed

this "strafe back and forth to mess up aiming" thing is very common in shooters, it's great way to quantize the exact limitations of the hit detection in that particular game. it's super amplified by scouts because of their speed, you can basically smear your hitbox all over the place to the enemy player,so they don't know where to shoot

in a very well constructed game like CS 1.6, the effect is almost impossible to perceive, so most players don't bother to strafe like that

in a poorly constructed game like..well...dust514, it's extremely apparent.

the solution is client side hit detection
i'm not worried about hackers, it's incredibly difficult to get onto PSN with a jailbroken ps3, and you have to be constantly vigilant to keep it from being banned. you might see one obvious aimbot once every few hundred matches, but he'll be reported and banned instantly so who cares?

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Forte Haulerson Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.08.19 14:33:00 - [31] - Quote Khulam Alkon wrote: girls calm down, you're both pretty.... there is definately an issue with hit detection if i'm shooting at a stationary target and have to use an entire mag (using bursts of fire of course) and only getting a few hits with each burst at very close range... ^^^^^^ This. +1....
Karyld Ulvaer Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2012.08.19 14:39:00 - [32] - Quote Taco Dropsuit wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Taco Dropsuit wrote: Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Except that YOU clearly don't know what you're talking about, because "instant hit" means "hitscan" and this game DOESN'T use hitscan for most of its weapons, which is WHY so many people who can't lead their shots think there are hit detection issues that aren't really there. Bullets from ARs, SMGs, etc. are NOT hitscan in this game (at least in the current build), and they DO have travel time, and you DO have to lead your shots to account for that fact. Do you have a source to back that up? Doing that would be heavy on the server and they have to optimize every bit to even be able to include a 4v4 map. Making games is not an easy task, buddy. No hitscan at all? yea right. Unless they have changed it in the latest build, the AR and Sniper rifles were both hitscan when I last tried. I could aim straight at an moving enemy with my sniper rifle from a large distance, and hit him instantly without leading. The same has been true with AR. SMG's I haven't tried enough to know for sure, especially as I haven't upgraded secondary weapon range much, making it hard to use in distances where it would matter, but it would surprise me if they actually modeled bullet trajectories for any of those weapons. While they have changed it now, previously even things like the missile turrets were hitscan - while you could see a missile moving when you fired it, that didn't use to be what was actually making damage. If you had an enemy in your crosshairs when you fired you'd get a kill regardless of if the target was still there when the client side projectile hit.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.08.19 14:52:00 - [33] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed. LOL thats some REAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYY slow projectiles then considering even at close range and mid range u gotta lead hit detection is still ass PERIOD. if CCP wants this to be considered a AAA game they need to get th core stuff PINPOINT
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 15:14:00 - [34] - Quote Khulam Alkon wrote: there is definately an issue with hit detection if i'm shooting at a stationary target and have to use an entire mag (using bursts of fire of course) and only getting a few hits with each burst at very close range... I can agree with that, because you're talking about a legitimate hit detection issue. At no point have I said there aren't problems with hit detection. But when the problem is SCOUTS, specifically, that's NOT because of hit detection. Or at least not ENTIRELY because of hit detection. Scouts are hard to hit because people suck at hitting fast-moving targets when they have to lead their shots. For most weapons in this game, you have to lead your shots, so fast-moving targets (which Scouts are MEANT to be) will be hard to hit. Blaming that on the hit detection is refusing to learn to aim. Complain about the hit detection, because it's a problem. But ALSO complain about the projectile speed, because that's what the ACTUAL problem is for the OP, and that's what I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying he's wrong about there being hit detection issues. I'm saying he's targeting the wrong thing in his complaint.
JonnyAugust Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2012.08.19 15:19:00 - [35] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed. LOL thats some REAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLYYY slow projectiles then considering even at close range and mid range u gotta lead hit detection is still ass PERIOD. if CCP wants this to be considered a AAA game they need to get th core stuff PINPOINT This ^
Blue PowerRanger Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 9	Posted - 2012.08.19 15:38:00 - [36] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: SILENTSAM 69 wrote: Everyone is very vague with the term hitdetection. It is turning into the goto excuse when you do not kill someone. That said the Scouts are taking way more damage now and the frame rate problems that helped them are no longer a problem. The Scout suits have fewer HP and should be harder to hit. They have smaller hit boxes, and that is proper, not broken. They are demolished by anything at range that can aim. It is the Assault fools running up and helping the Scout close range that makes the Scout look good. Actually, I was in a few matches with you yesterday and the the hit detection on you specifically was fabulous. In the past, you had some of the worst. Are my grenades going to go off? Are my bullets going to hit? Are my suits going to be invalid? Dust is like a box of chocolates lately. +1 Gonna boroow that from now on... "Dust is like a box of cho-co-lates..."
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.19 15:38:00 - [37] - Quote Also we must remember that assault rifle is meant to miss some of it's shots due to low skills.
Ourors Doomheim 130	Posted - 2012.08.19 16:38:00 - [38] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed. uh, the fact that people need to lead shots is WHY the hit detection is so bad. in (real shooters) with (real engines), most weapons are instant travel unless specified otherwise (like mass drivers and such, low velocity). i would be totally okay with ccp if they spent an ENTIRE BUILD on fixing hit detection. i do not care about the little "server full" or fits invalid bugs. i would keep coming back every ******* DAY if dust PLAYED LIKE A REAL SHOOTER
Darkz azurr Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 105	Posted - 2012.08.19 17:05:00 - [39] - Quote trust me i play in a scout suit and i take dmg fast...real fast, i also run real fast, trying to get close enough to people with a shotgun is not easy due to enimies bunching up together. i die a few times in a game.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 17:11:00 - [40] - Quote Ourors wrote: uh, the fact that people need to lead shots is WHY the hit detection looks so bad. Fixed. It's still not hit detection. And after a good run going back and forth between laggy and non-laggy games, I've found what I think is causing the problem. Lag causes firing delays. In one match, I managed to fire a shotgun, turn 90-Ü while strafing, and see my shotgun fire from where I had been almost a full second earlier. THAT's why you're having to lead your shots so much in close quarters. I've had similar with grenades previously (throwing a grenade while running backwards, and seeing it spawn in mid-air in front of me about half a second later), but thought it was only with grenades. Apparently I was wrong.

Ourors Doomheim 130	Posted - 2012.08.19 17:40:00 - [41] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ourors wrote: uh, the fact that people need to lead shots is WHY the hit detection looks so bad. Lag causes firing delays. In one match, I managed to fire a shotgun, turn 90-Ü while strafing, and see my shotgun fire from where I had been almost a full second earlier. if the final release of this game is going to be dependent on leading all shots as if these futuristic rounds are somehow traveling at way subsonic speeds, this is going to be a bad game. plain and simple. you might cry "harden the **** up!" "this is a real shooter!", ect, but it will be a bad game with a very small and intensely rabid fanbase refusing to listen to reason. kind of like the old republic i really hope that does not happen
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 17:45:00 - [42] - Quote Ourors wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ourors wrote: uh, the fact that people need to lead shots is WHY the hit detection looks so bad. Lag causes firing delays. In one match, I managed to fire a shotgun, turn 90-Ü while strafing, and see my shotgun fire from where I had been almost a full second earlier. if the final release of this game is going to be dependent on leading all shots as if these futuristic rounds are somehow traveling at way subsonic speeds, this is going to be a bad game. plain and simple. you might cry "harden the **** up!" "this is a real shooter!", ect, but it will be a bad game with a very small and intensely rabid fanbase refusing to listen to reason. kind of like the old republic i really hope that does not happen I'm not arguing that there's no problem. I'm also not saying the game SHOULD be working how it is. I LIKE that bullets have some travel time, and that at mid- to long-range you have to lead your shots, but the degree to which it's necessary is stupid, and it has to be worked on. And the issue with shots firing late is a nasty lag-related problem that makes it worse. I agree that there's a problem, I'm ONLY pointing out that the problem isn't ONLY with hit detection - and in particular pointing out that hit detection ISN'T any worse on Scouts than any other suit.
Anuliadon Gortusk Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 26	Posted - 2012.08.19 17:56:00 - [43] - Quote hi i'm a scout u get me to a 1 hit i run away and my buddies kill you or i regen and kill you.
Jag Gilla Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 2	Posted - 2012.08.19 18:13:00 - [44] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed. ^ so much this, tell me you can't hit a scout standing still and then I'll believe this hit detection stuff, you need to gauge the distance and speed of target and shoot in front of them
Corvus Ravensong Skyel Industries Subspace Exploration Agency 179	Posted - 2012.08.19 18:13:00 - [45] - Quote I've been alternating between quickly getting into matches with near perfect hit detection and taking forever to get into a match followed by utter shite hit detection..... Not sure but I think mine is from server load or lag
JonnyAugust Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2012.08.19 18:29:00 - [46] - Quote Ourors wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ourors wrote: uh, the fact that people need to lead shots is WHY the hit detection looks so bad. Lag causes firing delays. In one match, I managed to fire a shotgun, turn 90-Ü while strafing, and see my shotgun fire from where I had been almost a full second earlier. if the final release of this game is going to be dependent on leading all shots as if these futuristic rounds are somehow traveling at way subsonic speeds, this is going to be a bad game. plain and simple. you might cry "harden the **** up!" "this is a real shooter!", ect, but it will be a bad game with a very small and intensely rabid fanbase refusing to listen to reason. kind of like the old republic i really hope that does not happen Exactly the point. Fanboys can scream htfu all they want, it won't convince people to play a broken game.
Zekain Kade BetaMax. 931	Posted - 2012.08.19 19:05:00 - [47] - Quote Just make the bullets hit scan. problem solved.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.08.19 19:22:00 - [48] - Quote I'd love some "EU servers only" option for for my instant battles. The game does way too much on the server side, which pretty much breaks the hit detection completely.
Ourors Doomheim 130	Posted - 2012.08.19 20:43:00 - [49] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: I agree that there's a problem, I'm ONLY pointing out that the problem isn't ONLY with hit detection - and in particular pointing out that hit detection ISN'T any worse on Scouts than any other suit. except that it is, simply because of their higher movement speed this "strafe back and forth to mess up aiming" thing is very common in shooters, it's great way to quantize the exact limitations of the hit detection in that particular game. it's super amplified by scouts because of their speed, you can basically smear your hitbox all over the place to the enemy player,so they don't know where to shoot in a very well constructed game like CS 1.6, the effect is almost impossible to perceive, so most players don't bother to strafe like that in a poorly constructed game like..well...dust514, it's extremely apparent. *the solution is client side hit detection* i'm not worried about hackers, it's incredibly difficult to get onto PSN with a jailbroken ps3, and you have to be constantly vigilant to keep it from being banned. you might see one obvious aimbot once every few hundred matches, but he'll be reported and banned instantly so who cares?
William HBonney Imperfects Negative-Feedback 318	Posted - 2012.08.19 21:01:00 - [50] - Quote Ourors wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: I agree that there's a problem, I'm ONLY pointing out that the problem isn't ONLY with hit detection - and in particular pointing out that hit detection ISN'T any worse on Scouts than any other suit. except that it is, simply because of their higher movement speed this "strafe back and forth to mess up aiming" thing is very common in shooters, it's great way to quantize the exact limitations of the hit detection in that particular game. it's super amplified by scouts because of their speed, you can basically smear your hitbox all over the place to the enemy player,so they don't know where to shoot in a very well constructed game like CS 1.6, the effect is almost impossible to perceive, so most players don't bother to strafe like that in a poorly constructed game like..well...dust514, it's extremely apparent. *the solution is client side hit detection* i'm not worried about hackers, it's incredibly difficult to get onto PSN with a jailbroken ps3, and you have to be constantly vigilant to keep it from being banned. you might see one obvious aimbot once every few hundred matches, but he'll be reported and banned instantly so who cares? Yeah, Not sure what everyone is saying "LEAD" the scout, hur hur hur all you got to do is lead......it is the back and forth strafing that is the ONLY broken area when dealing with scouts....you can lead them, but they NEVER make it to where they would meet the bullet before they strafe back....there seems to be a speed threshold at which the game can no longer register hits, and scouts seem to break that threshold

Bhal Jhor Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 23	Posted - 2012.08.19 21:06:00 - [51] - Quote Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what?


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