DUST Search - Hit detection still isn't good enough

Taco Dropsuit wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:

You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what?

No, they CAN'T. You're aiming AT them when you need to be aiming IN FRONT of them (in the sense of movement direction, not aim direction). So it's pretty much a learn to aim issue.

The bullets COULD do with travelling faster (they're already faster than a Scout suit though, so not sure WTF you think you're trying to babble about there), and there ARE still occasional hit detection issues where shots trigger a target's shield animation, but continue through the target and deal no damage. That's NOT the issue you're describing though, and as a frequent Scout player myself, I have no problems killing Scouts whether I'm one or not, unless they legitimately outplayed me or forced me to fight how THEY want instead of letting me control the fight.

Engage your enemy at a range that gives YOU the advantage, instead of the target. If you can't do that, you deserve to die.

You make no sense, do you know what hit detection is? In game development, the server runs the real simulation and feeds the clients information about the scenario state.

Due to lag, the client is always behind, it displays what makes sense to him but on the server side, the enemy might just be in a different spot. When the lag is low enough, the client can afford to "smooth" the other player's movements, but that's just a rough guess.

In worse scenarios, movement is jumpy, the client just can't cope with what the server is feeding back.

The enemy's hit box is the location where the server has the enemy, you don't see the hit box, you see what your client tells you.

Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile.

You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

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Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 43	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:18:00 - [1] - Quote Scout suits are still running around taking down everything in their path because hit detection still allows them to do so.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:24:00 - [2] - Quote People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed.
Winscar Shinobi Better Hide R Die 43	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:28:00 - [3] - Quote Shooting a scout in the back just to have him run off with 1 Health then appear behind me and kill me faster than I could damage him isn't about leading shots, as soon as he starts moving, even in a straight line, he starts going neo all on my bullets.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:33:00 - [4] - Quote Winscar Shinobi wrote: Shooting a scout in the back just to have him run off with 1 Health then appear behind me and kill me faster than I could damage him isn't about leading shots, as soon as he starts moving, even in a straight line, he starts going neo all on my bullets. Because you're aiming AT him, not IN FRONT of him. Like I said. If projectile speeds were increased significantly (the ACTUAL problem), then short-range firefights wouldn't require the current amounts of leading you have to make to land hits on fast-moving targets. That's still not a hit detection issue.
Mo Gallas Gentralde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 178	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:35:00 - [5] - Quote You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what?
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:36:00 - [6] - Quote Regardless of its cause I'll go ahead and agree with the underlying sentiment that scout suits are still pretty silly.
Abron Garr Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 256	Posted - 2012.08.18 21:38:00 - [7] - Quote I'm thinking the problem is the scout suit, there's only so much you can do with hit detection.
KingBlade82 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 56	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:00:00 - [8] - Quote i never understood hit detection problems i always hit my targets.....most of the time its harder now cause i have crappy guns with crappy range lol miss my skills EDIT: missle turret is still crap most of the time i cant see the explosion and it looks like it flies through objects
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:21:00 - [9] - Quote There is something odd going on with hit detection atm. it's just more obvious with scouts because they're so squishy. I shot one today running straight towards me and it took a whole mag to kill him which obviously shouldn't be the case if hit detection would work as it should be. I also had an unkillable heavy today as he just didn't take any hits until he turned his belly on me I had a sniper so I know I couldn't hit as the dot showed as blue despite being on center mass until he turned and it became red. However hit detection isn't really an issue for sniper unless targets are moving but it's a becoming a problem in CQC as some have begun running up in scouts with AR's and some matches start with more scouts then assaults which is of c. a direct result from rumours that scout suit is broken as far as hit detection is concerned and those rumours aren't completely bogus either.
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:30:00 - [10] - Quote Everyone is very vague with the term hitdetection. It is turning into the goto excuse when you do not kill someone. That said the Scouts are taking way more damage now and the frame rate problems that helped them are no longer a problem. The Scout suits have fewer HP and should be harder to hit. They have smaller hit boxes, and that is proper, not broken. They are demolished by anything at range that can aim. It is the Assault fools running up and helping the Scout close range that makes the Scout look good.

thereal herbzula Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 62	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:34:00 - [11] - Quote Agree, the scout suit running and jumping everywhere with a submachine gun is still nonsense
Bo Tracta Celtic Anarchy 56	Posted - 2012.08.18 22:36:00 - [12] - Quote Get an assault suit with a Mass Driver, the splash damage will make it much easier to deal with fast movers.
lDocHollidayl Imperfects Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2012.08.18 23:18:00 - [13] - Quote If you think scout suits are fine...go face the zitro brothers. Neo twitch strafe is alive and well. Now three on one...they go down. One on one... invincible I encourage everyone to go into scout suits. I am starting to believe this is the design. Now with more group warfare and medics they are not game changers. Not in ambush...ambush they are kings.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.08.18 23:26:00 - [14] - Quote It's still not great. I just unloaded a whole SMG clip into a heavy without him registering any damage. My scout is getting plenty slaughtered though. (Wide open new maps aren't helping.)
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.08.18 23:36:00 - [15] - Quote we need laser rlifes which do less damage but have no travel time
Michael Erwin 101	Posted - 2012.08.18 23:53:00 - [16] - Quote Has anyone tried the aim assist? I have and didn't notice a difference, so I turned it back off.
Ignatius Crumwald Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 475	Posted - 2012.08.19 00:10:00 - [17] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: Everyone is very vague with the term hitdetection. It is turning into the goto excuse when you do not kill someone. That said the Scouts are taking way more damage now and the frame rate problems that helped them are no longer a problem. The Scout suits have fewer HP and should be harder to hit. They have smaller hit boxes, and that is proper, not broken. They are demolished by anything at range that can aim. It is the Assault fools running up and helping the Scout close range that makes the Scout look good. Actually, I was in a few matches with you yesterday and the the hit detection on you specifically was fabulous. In the past, you had some of the worst. Are my grenades going to go off? Are my bullets going to hit? Are my suits going to be invalid? Dust is like a box of chocolates lately.
Michael Erwin 101	Posted - 2012.08.19 00:14:00 - [18] - Quote Yup
Daken Cydonia Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2012.08.19 00:16:00 - [19] - Quote De-nerfed HMG's seem to make very short work of scout suits in my experience.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 11:54:00 - [20] - Quote Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what? No, they CAN'T. You're aiming AT them when you need to be aiming IN FRONT of them (in the sense of movement direction, not aim direction). So it's pretty much a learn to aim issue. The bullets COULD do with travelling faster (they're already faster than a Scout suit though, so not sure WTF you think you're trying to babble about there), and there ARE still occasional hit detection issues where shots trigger a target's shield animation, but continue through the target and deal no damage. That's NOT the issue you're describing though, and as a frequent Scout player myself, I have no problems killing Scouts whether I'm one or not, unless they legitimately outplayed me or forced me to fight how THEY want instead of letting me control the fight. Engage your enemy at a range that gives YOU the advantage, instead of the target. If you can't do that, you deserve to die.

Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.08.19 12:03:00 - [21] - Quote I played scout. I sucked. I played assault. Fixed :D Keep your dirty scout suits :P Oh and play Tribes before you say scouts are too fast. I want a "Tribes" suit. At tribes speed
Taco Dropsuit Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:05:00 - [22] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what? No, they CAN'T. You're aiming AT them when you need to be aiming IN FRONT of them (in the sense of movement direction, not aim direction). So it's pretty much a learn to aim issue. The bullets COULD do with travelling faster (they're already faster than a Scout suit though, so not sure WTF you think you're trying to babble about there), and there ARE still occasional hit detection issues where shots trigger a target's shield animation, but continue through the target and deal no damage. That's NOT the issue you're describing though, and as a frequent Scout player myself, I have no problems killing Scouts whether I'm one or not, unless they legitimately outplayed me or forced me to fight how THEY want instead of letting me control the fight. Engage your enemy at a range that gives YOU the advantage, instead of the target. If you can't do that, you deserve to die. You make no sense, do you know what hit detection is? In game development, the server runs the real simulation and feeds the clients information about the scenario state. Due to lag, the client is always behind, it displays what makes sense to him but on the server side, the enemy might just be in a different spot. When the lag is low enough, the client can afford to "smooth" the other player's movements, but that's just a rough guess. In worse scenarios, movement is jumpy, the client just can't cope with what the server is feeding back. The enemy's hit box is the location where the server has the enemy, you don't see the hit box, you see what your client tells you. Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Forte Haulerson Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:17:00 - [23] - Quote Taco Dropsuit wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: You're right, its not a hit detection issue because the scouts can outrun the bullets. what? No, they CAN'T. You're aiming AT them when you need to be aiming IN FRONT of them (in the sense of movement direction, not aim direction). So it's pretty much a learn to aim issue. The bullets COULD do with travelling faster (they're already faster than a Scout suit though, so not sure WTF you think you're trying to babble about there), and there ARE still occasional hit detection issues where shots trigger a target's shield animation, but continue through the target and deal no damage. That's NOT the issue you're describing though, and as a frequent Scout player myself, I have no problems killing Scouts whether I'm one or not, unless they legitimately outplayed me or forced me to fight how THEY want instead of letting me control the fight. Engage your enemy at a range that gives YOU the advantage, instead of the target. If you can't do that, you deserve to die. You make no sense, do you know what hit detection is? In game development, the server runs the real simulation and feeds the clients information about the scenario state. Due to lag, the client is always behind, it displays what makes sense to him but on the server side, the enemy might just be in a different spot. When the lag is low enough, the client can afford to "smooth" the other player's movements, but that's just a rough guess. In worse scenarios, movement is jumpy, the client just can't cope with what the server is feeding back. The enemy's hit box is the location where the server has the enemy, you don't see the hit box, you see what your client tells you. Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Maybe you're both right? Lead to hit... Yes.... But at certain range, leading makes no sense.. If you have to lead so much, you're shooting where the server thinks your target is, not the client ... Also. Don't forget dispersion which plays a factor in hit calculation...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:18:00 - [24] - Quote Taco Dropsuit wrote: Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Except that YOU clearly don't know what you're talking about, because "instant hit" means "hitscan" and this game DOESN'T use hitscan for most of its weapons, which is WHY so many people who can't lead their shots think there are hit detection issues that aren't really there. Bullets from ARs, SMGs, etc. are NOT hitscan in this game (at least in the current build), and they DO have travel time, and you DO have to lead your shots to account for that fact.
SoLJae ZionTCD Legacy Rising 351	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:26:00 - [25] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Taco Dropsuit wrote: Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Except that YOU clearly don't know what you're talking about, because "instant hit" means "hitscan" and this game DOESN'T use hitscan for most of its weapons, which is WHY so many people who can't lead their shots think there are hit detection issues that aren't really there. Bullets from ARs, SMGs, etc. are NOT hitscan in this game (at least in the current build), and they DO have travel time, and you DO have to lead your shots to account for that fact. +1 u right on this, Garrett. Good advice.
JonnyAugust Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:30:00 - [26] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: People still aren't leading their shots. Scout suits are still running around taking down anyone stupid enough to aim at where they ARE instead of where they WILL BE. I've seen a few moments where hit detection looks problematic, but the problem with Scouts was NEVER about hit detection, it was about projectile speed. lol, leading shots. Our guns are modified sparklers that don't have any weapon mechanics. There is no projectile speed in this game. They simply did not program the mechanics into that level of detail.
Taco Dropsuit Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:34:00 - [27] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Taco Dropsuit wrote: Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Except that YOU clearly don't know what you're talking about, because "instant hit" means "hitscan" and this game DOESN'T use hitscan for most of its weapons, which is WHY so many people who can't lead their shots think there are hit detection issues that aren't really there. Bullets from ARs, SMGs, etc. are NOT hitscan in this game (at least in the current build), and they DO have travel time, and you DO have to lead your shots to account for that fact. Do you have a source to back that up? Doing that would be heavy on the server and they have to optimize every bit to even be able to include a 4v4 map. Making games is not an easy task, buddy. No hitscan at all? yea right.
JonnyAugust Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 212	Posted - 2012.08.19 13:45:00 - [28] - Quote Taco Dropsuit wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Taco Dropsuit wrote: Saying "you have to shoot ahead" only applies to VERY SLOW projectiles, regular projectiles don't even have a "flying speed', they're "instant hit", which is a lot easier for the server as it doesn't have to keep the state of a moving projectile. You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Except that YOU clearly don't know what you're talking about, because "instant hit" means "hitscan" and this game DOESN'T use hitscan for most of its weapons, which is WHY so many people who can't lead their shots think there are hit detection issues that aren't really there. Bullets from ARs, SMGs, etc. are NOT hitscan in this game (at least in the current build), and they DO have travel time, and you DO have to lead your shots to account for that fact. Do you have a source to back that up? Doing that would be heavy on the server and they have to optimize every bit to even be able to include a 4v4 map. Making games is not an easy task, buddy. No hitscan at all? yea right. I think Garrett is talking out of his ****. Defending CCPs 1st attempt at programming bullets is counterproductive to the beta. I'm with Taco.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.19 14:01:00 - [29] - Quote Taco Dropsuit wrote: Do you have a source to back that up? Doing that would be heavy on the server and they have to optimize every bit to even be able to include a 4v4 map. Making games is not an easy task, buddy. No hitscan at all? yea right. War for Cybertron had literally only one hitscan weapon (and that was the repair gun), and ran 6 vs. 6 with almost no trouble using player-hosting. Built on the same game engine that CCP are using for DUST, by the way. Competent netcode and dedicated servers should be able to handle more players with a similar system. Also, when did I say "No hitscan at all" - provide a quote. It's NOWHERE in ANYTHING I said about DUST in ANY forum ANYWHERE, EVER. Nice try on blowing my (easily tested for yourself if you actually know what you're doing) statements out of proportion. There probably are hitscan weapons. I think the Forge Gun might be, and I'm fairly sure it was in the previous build. Pretty sure Railguns were hitscan as well - haven't tested either in the current build though. But in this build, I've only used Swarm Launcher, SMG, AR and watched my girlfriend with a Sniper Rifle, and I can say with absolute certainty that none of those weapons are working on hitscan, and that all of them require you to lead your shots. I can ALSO say that there are issues with the projectile speed that mean you have to lead your shots more than is reasonable in close quarters. This might also be related to the lag issues you were mentioning, but it's NOT specifically a hit detection issue.
Khulam Alkon Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 46	Posted - 2012.08.19 14:21:00 - [30] - Quote girls calm down, you're both pretty.... there is definately an issue with hit detection if i'm shooting at a stationary target and have to use an entire mag (using bursts of fire of course) and only getting a few hits with each burst at very close range...



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