I see it beat shotguns easily for a sidearm

Ps shotguns of the same tier

I can beat Shotguns when I bring my SMG.

And I can beat SMGs when I bring my Shotgun.

And I can be beaten by people using both weapons regardless of which one I bring.

Shotgun works differently, not better or worse, but it's less suited to being a sidearm. SMGs are fine.

Why would an sg be less suited to be a secondary. Relatively low ammo and low rof sounds a lot like a scrambler

Until you consider the multi-target possibilities and less reliance on fine aim for damage, and I'm pretty sure the damage potential is higher with the Shotgun.

It loses out on effective range and reload spead
Also the targets would have to be standing less than a foot away with each other

SMG's are fine as a side arm, however it might be nice to see higher powered or somehow upgraded versions as primary weapons.

You mean AR's? :P

You mean AR's? :P

No, I don't. I mean something like a P90 vs a MAC10.

Edit: AR's don't have the RoF like SMG's do, they aren't CQC weapons.

What do you think?

Those are both smgs

Yes they are.. But a P90 is much more powerful than a MAC10. That's like saying a Thomson and and M16 are both Assault rifles, while it may be true, they are in a much different class.

Wikipedia can tell you how wrong you are. The thompson is an smg and the mac fires a larger round. Did you use cod stats for research?

The Thompson is classified as an SMG? Thats news to me. And as far as I'm aware, the MAC10 is a single-hand weapon, where as the P90 is a shouldered weapon, I think accuracy between the two might be, just slightly... different.

And what "stats" did I list? I don't recall giving out any numbers. I'm making my claims on information I have heard, read, and can manage to remember. My memory is a PoS so excuse me if I get some things wrong. No need to think I'm a "CoD kiddie", I'm not about to confuse anything with CoD, that's just a bunch of BS thrown into a video game, and re-released every year with a new title and cover art... no thanks.

Pistols are also one handed but are meant to be fired with both and the mac has a stock so it can also be considered shouldered

LMAO you must be joking.....do you even know why or what the history of a thompson sub machine gun is? LMAO it fires pistol rounds not rifle rounds .45acp pistol rounds lol

Hmm, well, I haven't seen a MAC10 with a stock before, but I'm sure you see my point. Just because to weapons have the same label, doesn't make them equals.

Hmm, well, I haven't seen a MAC10 with a stock before, but I'm sure you see my point. Just because to weapons have the same label, doesn't make them equals.

Read the rest of the thread before you start quoting. I understand when the thread is 5 pages or longer, you don't want to look for the reply, but seriously, if you had read the first post on page 2 you would've seen a response clarifying that I was unaware the Thompson is classified as an SMG.

I do and the stock retracts so that explains why you didn't know

ZZZzzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz ill point out whatever detail i choose to in your post it so happens i picked the one thats usually common knowledge to most 2 amendment americans but hey not all of us right?

I think this link is relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Sub_Machine_Carbine

After reading the suggestion to Wiki things, I went through Wikipedia's list of SMGs. I'm openly willing to admit I don't know a lot about guns, and didn't bother to read much of that article because I don't care a whole lot about real-world guns in general. A design like that which acts as a high-RoF, CQC focused alternative to ARs would work in DUST though. It's officially, according to the creators, a "Submachine Carbine" to differentiate it from other SMGs. Compare the size to the H&K MP7 if you want to see the difference in size (although stopping power might be another matter - like I said, never read the article).

But if you want a real reason why SMGs shouldn't be primary weapons and shotguns should, here's one.

I can use a Militia Shotgun against an Advanced Heavy and have them dead before I have to reload. Against the same Heavy with a Militia SMG that has more SPs invested into it, and specifically has a 25% damage bonus that the Shotgun doesn't get, I have to reload at least once before I can get the kill, even when I'm staying close enough to land every hit.

At the moment, the whole range of ARs is well-suited to mid-range combat and decent at long-range, but with a focus on precision fire rather than volume of fire, and the whole range of SMGs are very limited in effective range with a focus on insane RoF and CQC viability. Would be nice to have some kind of middle ground - a high-RoF full-automatic primary weapon with CQC and mid-range capabilities, but NOT viable at long-range. Whether they add a new class of weapon (SMC = Submachine Carbine = heavy SMG) or a high-RoF low-accuracy AR that's less viable for long range, I don't care, but it's a gap that I'd quite like to see filled as well.

I think this link is relevant:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Sub_Machine_Carbine

After reading the suggestion to Wiki things, I went through Wikipedia's list of SMGs. I'm openly willing to admit I don't know a lot about guns, and didn't bother to read much of that article because I don't care a whole lot about real-world guns in general. A design like that which acts as a high-RoF, CQC focused alternative to ARs would work in DUST though. It's officially, according to the creators, a "Submachine Carbine" to differentiate it from other SMGs. Compare the size to the H&K MP7 if you want to see the difference in size (although stopping power might be another matter - like I said, never read the article).

But if you want a real reason why SMGs shouldn't be primary weapons and shotguns should, here's one.

I can use a Militia Shotgun against an Advanced Heavy and have them dead before I have to reload. Against the same Heavy with a Militia SMG that has more SPs invested into it, and specifically has a 25% damage bonus that the Shotgun doesn't get, I have to reload at least once before I can get the kill, even when I'm staying close enough to land every hit.

At the moment, the whole range of ARs is well-suited to mid-range combat and decent at long-range, but with a focus on precision fire rather than volume of fire, and the whole range of SMGs are very limited in effective range with a focus on insane RoF and CQC viability. Would be nice to have some kind of middle ground - a high-RoF full-automatic primary weapon with CQC and mid-range capabilities, but NOT viable at long-range. Whether they add a new class of weapon (SMC = Submachine Carbine = heavy SMG) or a high-RoF low-accuracy AR that's less viable for long range, I don't care, but it's a gap that I'd quite like to see filled as well.

Retracts? Into the gun..? That thing is tiny, how could it hold a stock in there? lmao


I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, and if it gets repealed you can bet your ass I will find myself an illegal fire arm. However I am not old enough to carry a weapon legally, so I have not looked into any weaponry information. And I'm not really that interested in stocking up on high powered weaponry, or researching it in general. I would rather just be able to carry a pistol around.

Not all of us want to have an M16 or something of the like in our possession, or even care to do much research beyond what we pick up from those who do know the information.

Retracts? Into the gun..? That thing is tiny, how could it hold a stock in there? lmao


I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, and if it gets repealed you can bet your ass I will find myself an illegal fire arm. However I am not old enough to carry a weapon legally, so I have not looked into any weaponry information. And I'm not really that interested in stocking up on high powered weaponry, or researching it in general. I would rather just be able to carry a pistol around.

Not all of us want to have an M16 or something of the like in our possession, or even care to do much research beyond what we pick up from those who do know the information.

i have never been killed by the scrabler pistol as everyone uses a sub machine gun as a secondary, that i have come across. it's weird when many people use a secondary weapon (the smg) as there primary. if it was a primary it would need a slight increase in range. i personally find it very weird that the smg is a seconday , im assuming there will be 4 pistols at release for each faction. wich i wouldnt use , why use a single shot pistol when i could have another machine gun.

Or a lmg

Ps i think you mean a pdw

You're probably right. Thanks for the correction.

And just to avoid misunderstandings, no, I'm not being sarcastic.

i have never been killed by the scrabler pistol as everyone uses a sub machine gun as a secondary, that i have come across. it's weird when many people use a secondary weapon (the smg) as there primary. i never see anyone with a primary as a scrabler pistol. why ? because the smg performs like a primary already.
it would need a slight increase in base range if the was changed tho. i personally find it very weird that the smg is a seconday , im assuming there will be 4 pistols at release for each faction. wich i wouldnt use , why use a pistol when i could have another machine gun.

They must not be using the shotgun very well then.

i have never been killed by the scrabler pistol as everyone uses a sub machine gun as a secondary, that i have come across. it's weird when many people use a secondary weapon (the smg) as there primary. i never see anyone with a primary as a scrabler pistol. why ? because the smg performs like a primary already.
it would need a slight increase in base range if the was changed tho. i personally find it very weird that the smg is a seconday , im assuming there will be 4 pistols at release for each faction. wich i wouldnt use , why use a pistol when i could have another machine gun.

^This. SMG is nice, but I can outshoot it easily.

Wikipedia can tell you how wrong you are. The thompson is an smg and the mac fires a larger round. Did you use cod stats for
research?

P90 has a higher velocity, due to the 9mm round and longer barrel. And you're an idiot. He was comparing Mac and P90. Thompson uses a .45 round, which is larger than a 9mm. You had no thoughts flowing, and your argument is invalid. Your invalidity is bad and you should feel bad.

.45 round fires much slower than a 9mm, so it only hits with a thud, like a punch. The 9mm on the other hand fires at a much higher velocity, and can penetrate through multiple objects, so you could kill multiple people with one shot. The mac fires a 9mm, the P90 fires a 9mm, and the Thompson fires a .45 ACP. The biggest round has a different purpose. Shut up and take your invalidity elsewhere.

Do your research next time, m'kay?

P90 has a higher velocity, due to the 9mm round and longer barrel. And you're an idiot. He was comparing Mac and P90. Thompson uses a .45 round, which is larger than a 9mm. You had no thoughts flowing, and your argument is invalid. Your invalidity is bad and you should feel bad.

.45 round fires much slower than a 9mm, so it only hits with a thud, like a punch. The 9mm on the other hand fires at a much higher velocity, and can penetrate through multiple objects, so you could kill multiple people with one shot. The mac fires a 9mm, the P90 fires a 9mm, and the Thompson fires a .45 ACP. The biggest round has a different purpose. Shut up and take your invalidity elsewhere.

Do your research next time, m'kay?

sigh......first of all, you just flamed him when you were just as bad....

9mm parabellum isnt penetrating multiple layers of anything..... in fact there are problems with a 9mm cause it is too weak and takes multiple shots to kill sometimes...

.45 ACP hits much harder than 9mm, and even though it has a slower velocity, it is in every way a superior round, except for recoil.

the P90 basically fires a special high velocity 9mm round (well basically an armor piercing 9mm round), very different from 9mm parabellum. actual size is 5.7x28mm

i speak from actual experience with these rounds and not from the stats page of COD or BF.

edit: to the above post, the FN 5.7x28mm round for the FN P90 actually was made for the purpose of being better than the 9mm parabellum. Better terminal ballistics for piercing body armor and certainly isnt any less lethal...

Silly Rabbit Wikipedia is edited by kids!

I cross reference with more trusted sites

well, the only thing i saw was you saying the FN 5.7x28mm having less stopping power than 9mm...while it does have a little less actual force, and by that i mean a minimal amount, the p90 cartridge is basically a rifle round, not a pistol round. The terminal ballistics because of that make it a superior cartridge and id say the increased penetration make it have more stopping power.....

was being really picky after seeing the idiots above you.

i fire the guns.

Against unarmoured targets the 9m is superior because of it's larger cavitation but it is near useless against most body armor. Anyways thanks for backing me up and what is your psn name?

PSN: Lurchasaurus

its secret, no one can no my real name tho.....so dont let anyone see.....

i appreciate your knowledge here and your willingness to shoo away the......shenanigans

im an avid gun guy and that really hits a nerve lol. People think they know it all after seeing COD.

I have proven that cod is for kids. I let my 6 year old cousin play it for a while and he went over twenty kills each match

Edit: do you have a headset

i fire the guns.

Have you fired a PS90? I'm thinking of picking one up after I finish my AR15 build i'm currently working on.

Which d eagle did you get. The standard or long barrel

meh....ammo is scarce and its kinda a gimmick....i have had more fun shooting .223. again, finding 5.7 is kinda hard

im more of a rifle guy myself tho so dont let me dissuade you. Its a sleek gun and its fun to shoot something so compact for a change.

edit: if your looking at something for after your AR, take a look at H&K.....great stuff there if you havent already set your sights on a p90

I have a real desert eagle, its an imported IMI .41/.44 from back when they still exported the guns and you didnt have to get an American copy.

believe its a 6 in. but i could be wrong, dont know off the top of my head

It might be 7 in. Like the American copy but i don't know for sure

lol they dont make a 7 in.

my gun is an IMI from like the 70's. the gun statred being made in the US in 95, then briefly ent back to israel under IWI a couple years later. Now its back in the US tho.

I wasn't sure but i know they make a standard(6in.) And a long barrel (10in.)

If SMG's go into the main slot then snipers are ****** in CQC. Making SMG a secondary is good but maybe it should only be for scouts. Or make semi and full auto pistols. That's the only way putting the SMG in the primary only spot reasonable!

If SMG's go into the main slot then snipers are ****** in CQC. Making SMG a secondary is good but maybe it should only be for scouts. Or make semi and full auto pistols. That's the only way putting the SMG in the primary only spot reasonable!

p90 is a pdw(personal defense weapon), similar to smg but not the same.

smg(mac10, mp-5) fire pistol ammo, 9x19mm or .45 for example
pdw(p90, mp7) fire miniture rifle ammo,designed for pdw, 4.6x30mm or 5.7x28mm for example
assault rifle(ak-47,m-16) fire reduced power rifle rounds, 7.62x39mm or 5.62x45mm for example
battle rifle(m-14,m-1)(and many designated marksmen) fire full power rifle, 7.62x51mm or 7.62x54mm for example

Pdw are compact rifles (pdw r) smgs are any automatic pistol caliber weapon

well, the only thing i saw was you saying the FN 5.7x28mm having less stopping power than 9mm...while it does have a little less actual force, and by that i mean a minimal amount, the p90 cartridge is basically a rifle round, not a pistol round. The terminal ballistics because of that make it a superior cartridge and id say the increased penetration make it have more stopping power.....

was being really picky after seeing the idiots above you.

edit: ESPECIALLY after seeing the guy say a single 9mm round would penetrate and kill multiple bodies in one shot.......

Exactly what shotgun is a ohk against an equal tier armour