So, I've been seeing some posts of people claiming that in this stage of beta, there are aspects of the game that cannot be fixed, that it's "to late" to make major changes to the core mechanics of the game.

I have a question for those people - how many of you, have ever developed a high end, high budget FPS game for the PC or a gaming console? How can you so knowingly state that it is "to late" to fix? Besides, there aren't that many game breaking issues, aside from spawn camping and draw distance, both of which we know are being worked on. How can you say this game is so "bland" when you have seen 1 (2 for some of the older testers?) landscape, 1 mood (again, 2 for the older testers?), and 3 installations? It is profoundly stupid to make such a statement.

What you are seeing right now, is a miniscule portion of the universe that you are being welcomed into, and all you have to say is "this sucks, can't fix it, bye"? Some people...

Yeah, we'll computer games have come along way since Pong. A great game but horribly dated now. We should not be dealing with spawn camping after 3 builds complaining about it. Not these days. It's supposed to be fixed (again) next build. But I think CCP believes uplinks are key to the game. Their choice.

Yeah, we'll computer games have come along way since Pong. A great game but horribly dated now. We should not be dealing with spawn camping after 3 builds complaining about it. Not these days. It's supposed to be fixed (again) next build. But I think CCP believes uplinks are key to the game. Their choice.

So, I've been seeing some posts of people claiming that in this stage of beta, there are aspects of the game that cannot be fixed, that it's "to late" to make major changes to the core mechanics of the game.

I have a question for those people - how many of you, have ever developed a high end, high budget FPS game for the PC or a gaming console? How can you so knowingly state that it is "to late" to fix? Besides, there aren't that many game breaking issues, aside from spawn camping and draw distance, both of which we know are being worked on. How can you say this game is so "bland" when you have seen 1 (2 for some of the older testers?) landscape, 1 mood (again, 2 for the older testers?), and 3 installations? It is profoundly stupid to make such a statement.

What you are seeing right now, is a miniscule portion of the universe that you are being welcomed into, and all you have to say is "this sucks, can't fix it, bye"? Some people...

Tony, imagine this.

CCP have acknowledged that they are working on Spawning. Their trailers show it dramatically differently than we see in the current Beta, and more often than not, CCP tried to convey their desires through the trailers, meaning what you see, is what they want to give you. Eventually and if they can.

IF CCP are working on a dramatically new form of spawning, does it then make sense to dodo any more than patching a very broken system at the bare minimum?
Believe it or not, but spawning in this build is infinitely better than it were in the previous ones.

Well one would hope that if they want to convey product through there images theyd find some way ecourage people not to bunny hop or hooker jiggle.

Also the beta test for pong.... not pretty I assure you.

typical kids who are use to the BF3 type beta and other similar games where it wasnt build from the ground up and was more or less finished on arrival with little imput. its the same type of crowd that believes beta = DEMO and its final product. its sad but it just how they have become

One thing can be said though, the BF3 beta still looked better and played better than Dust at the moment. Really...and I keep saying this...Maybe this game will play horribly for years....wont even be as smooth as battlefield. But it is the interaction in Eve that makes it worthwhile.

One thing can be said though, the BF3 beta still looked better and played better than Dust at the moment. Really...and I keep saying this...Maybe this game will play horribly for years....wont even be as smooth as battlefield. But it is the interaction in Eve that makes it worthwhile.

Tak, you missed a point above.

All the major shooters (BF, COD, etc) release betas which are effectively glorified demos. They want the publicity, and they don't need the testing. Activision and EA both are multi billion dollar companies, and so, can afford large testing teams. Moreover, they retain the same engine from the last game, so don't need to make major changes. All they really need to put in is new maps, a couple of new features, and a new setting.

This, however, is a proper beta. Not for publicity (although anyone who does come to play the game is welcome to talk to their friends, barring breach of the NDA), but for testing. I'm sure that, at release, the game will play as smoothly as an AAA shooter.

Tak, you missed a point above.

All the major shooters (BF, COD, etc) release betas which are effectively glorified demos. They want the publicity, and they don't need the testing. Activision and EA both are multi billion dollar companies, and so, can afford large testing teams. Moreover, they retain the same engine from the last game, so don't need to make major changes. All they really need to put in is new maps, a couple of new features, and a new setting.

This, however, is a proper beta. Not for publicity (although anyone who does come to play the game is welcome to talk to their friends, barring breach of the NDA), but for testing. I'm sure that, at release, the game will play as smoothly as an AAA shooter.

Well BF3 did in fact need testing if not just for the formal reason that all games need testing, BF3 had some particularly worse issues then say KZ2. As far as the engine goes regarding this game I guess depends on your definition of a smooth triple A shooter, rainbow six was developed on the same engine but it had design issues regarding AI and ect...Dust 514 may suffer from the issue of bad design that simple testing will never fix. In 3 years if the game still retains much of how the shooting or the pacing is still closely related to how the game looks today and you compare it to other triple A shooters than the testing wouldn't have been the issue. But it's more of a personal opinion than anything.

Sure, it did need testing, but not extensively. Their beta started, I think, about a month and a half before release, and it didn't have vehicles in. They would have been hard pushed to add all those in for release, so they probably already had a release build and only wanted to test infantry.

Whereas, here, we need to test infantry, vehicles, the maps, etc. I'm just saying you can't compare the BF beta to the DUST beta, since they're two different companies, one with more resources than the other, meaning they can afford not to have a beta to test gameplay.

That, and it's CCP's first time developing an FPS. Sure, they have people from DICE, but CCP love their community so love feedback and suggestions. Anything we suggest will be considered, and when's a better time than in the closed beta?

Spawning last build was EXACTLY the same Dewie. Apparently it should be random this build, but is bugged. No points for that.

Yeah, we'll computer games have come along way since Pong. A great game but horribly dated now. We should not be dealing with spawn camping after 3 builds complaining about it. Not these days. It's supposed to be fixed (again) next build. But I think CCP believes uplinks are key to the game. Their choice.

Also the game will be perpetually developed, development will never ever stop on this game.

I've looked back a LOT through the forums posts from before this build, and while CCP have previously acknowledged the spawn-camping issue, I haven't been able to find any reference to them saying they planned to fix it in a specific build. Just that they know it's an issue, and the spawn mechanics aren't meant to be working the way they currently do.

If I've missed something, a link would be much appreciated.

Mm hm..I just do not think the game will change much even if you sort every bug or balance issue out and the comparisons to COD or BF3 will not end with me. It's not a matter of if it's a postive or negative attitude I just don't expect it to be a top tier triple A shooter to the likes of BF3 or COD. Well I am not playing this game for looks or how it plays anyway but for the fact it's with Eve's universe that's all I have really to say.

Also the game will be perpetually developed, development will never ever stop on this game.

Randomization around fixed points, in this case CRU, has been present already for many years and if it doesn't work it's because it's a broken system: you can't make something less broken and believe it works well.
It's not CCP fault, they dind't invent this spawning system, but it's their fault if they keep it and frustration will continue.
We need a another spawning system entirely.
Also Drop Uplinks won't help either: in Killzone 2 we had spawn grenades and spawn-camping around them was easy.
Once someone founded them he waited, killed the spawners, rinse & repeat.
In one of my first matches in this new Built this was already happening: people spawned on a DU but the enemy was waiting around the corner camping.
The only way to escape that situation is to use CRU...which then brings us back to the original problem.

Templar, you're acting as if this build is the only one they have.

Apparently, from what I've heard, they fixed a lot of the mechanics issues from the last build. For example, they improved (not fixed) hit detection...

Also, your comparison with BF and GoW... Both are huge companies. Epic developed the U3 engine, and license the engine out to a lot of games companies, so can afford a lot of in-house testing.

Actually, I can't be bothered with this argument anymore. All the points have already been made, and you don't seem to understand the beta testing period. It's not like the next build will be this build with extra stuff tacked on.

That's it from me.

Now, look at what what Dust 514 is missing:

No accurate, responsive controls.
Weapons don't have have weight & don't feel empowering to use.
Weak sound design & effects.
Poor hit detection & terrible lag.
Animations aren't fluid.
No unique map design to encourage different gamepaly: CQC, ranged, vehicles only, infantry only, etc...
Lackluster graphic.

I measure Dust 514 from what I have seen so far, my opinion is formed on what I see and play NOW.
Most of you instead say "Dust will be better TOMORROW".

If the the future will prove me wrong then I will win a great game to play on PS3.
If the the future will prove me right, well...

So, I've been seeing some posts of people claiming that in this stage of beta, there are aspects of the game that cannot be fixed, that it's "to late" to make major changes to the core mechanics of the game.

I have a question for those people - how many of you, have ever developed a high end, high budget FPS game for the PC or a gaming console? How can you so knowingly state that it is "to late" to fix? Besides, there aren't that many game breaking issues, aside from spawn camping and draw distance, both of which we know are being worked on. How can you say this game is so "bland" when you have seen 1 (2 for some of the older testers?) landscape, 1 mood (again, 2 for the older testers?), and 3 installations? It is profoundly stupid to make such a statement.

What you are seeing right now, is a miniscule portion of the universe that you are being welcomed into, and all you have to say is "this sucks, can't fix it, bye"? Some people...

We are 3 builds in and the only thing they did was make it look pretty. Weapons are not good, draw distance is still bad, hit detection still sucks. Don't get me started the aim assist, lack of speed this build. Also this is the only shooter I know thats been in dev for 3 years and runs like ****. Alpha build from 09 looked better but the camera was dark so now I'm not so sure.

Word was CCP got some exDICE guys to work on this... guess that's a rumor! I've played and seen Alphas better than this so the excuse of oh it's a beta is a **** poor one.

Ok I really need some help here regarding how some game mechanics are broken? Hit detection, animations etc.

Now isnt the point of buying into the Unreal engine so that a game designer doesnt have to worry about the basics?

Surely the U3 engine is quite capable of doing perfectly good hit detection? So what are CCP doing wrong in programming the engine?

Now as far as animation is concerned surely again the engine is there - all CCP have to do is load up the 3d model files and let the existing engine do its thing? So I can only assume that CCP have installed basic model files and textures as they want to test other issues first? Id bet they have done a small internal test where they maxed out the textures, models etc then scaled them back for beta test of other issues. After all at release they will want the public and testers to still say "OOOh thats pretty"

You wanna know what Dust is gonna look as good as? Check out the planetside 2 demo from E3 - that **** is the shizzle. But its played on one large map that is gonna be real boring 6 months in. Dust will have Millions of battlefields...

You wanna know what Dust is gonna look as good as? Check out the planetside 2 demo from E3 - that **** is the shizzle. But its played on one large map that is gonna be real boring 6 months in. Dust will have Millions of battlefields...

First we won't have million of but planets thousands of planets/maps.
Second, most important, they will all be randomly generated...think of it as Diablo maps/dungeons, just in 2012.

Part of the issue with the hit detection is that its server-side, not client-side. Right now we're running on a server that's only so capable, but they've been upgrading it as they go along. While some people have been insisting that the hit detection be made client-side, but I'd prefer it just stay as it is and be improved upon, because client-side hit detection is one of the factors that makes aim-botting and all other manner of hacks possible.

well said. Client sided mechanics for an FPS are bad news....not trying to turn this into Combat Arms here

Client side hit detection does have draw backs, but it also prevents people from ping shielding.. Not very easy to land a shot on someone with a 500+ ping.

Perhaps some sort of combo between the two could be put in place. Say, if someone has a ping higher that 300, maybe hit detection for that person only would be swapped over to client side rather than server side. Would make ping shielding impossible, while for everyone else making aim-bot's less viable and keeping things balanced?

Not sure I said that very well.. oh well.

simple, not gonna be a problem once CCP kicks their servers into high gear. The server situation we have now isnt gonna be the same at launch. These are simply test servers, from what i have read...