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Ventis Gant
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
37
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Posted - 2012.07.27 13:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Another note for those complaining of balance issues. CCP's official stance is that PvP is inherently imbalanced (see one of the fanfest videos, I believe the DUST keynote speech, although it could have been another), so they decided to give the player the ability to influence this inherent imbalance in their favor through skills, fittings, the metagame, superior resources, etc. CCP doesn't care about game balance in the micro equation. They are only concerned about the macro, that the game is balanced when all its parts are added together. This balancing act is always ongoing, because of the tools that CCP gives us.
Something that was fine a few months ago can become a threat to the macro balance because someone found a new way to use old stuff, or because something that seemed completely unrelated had an unanticipated ripple effect. For CCP, balance becomes an issue only when a given tactic or fitting is so dominant that the only realistic way to achieve victory is to use it. If it came to the point that the only way to win a match was to have four fully fit and manned Sagaris tanks on your team, and no other tactic had a realistic chance at victory, they would take a look at tanks.
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Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.07.27 13:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
They should look at tanks. 3 marauder is instant win if you have 3 people who will cap an objective. |
xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
125
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Posted - 2012.07.27 13:17:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:They should look at tanks. 3 marauder is instant win if you have 3 people who will cap an objective.
@ventis : this
Its not about specialisation or rock paper scissors etc. its about a FPS becoming Tank Wars and nothing else.
(as an aside, why are tanks/ dropships in ambush? Does CCP really not want to make a fun FPS? Same thing is happening there now).
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fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
212
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Posted - 2012.07.27 13:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ventis Gant wrote:Another note for those complaining of balance issues. CCP's official stance is that PvP is inherently imbalanced (see one of the fanfest videos, I believe the DUST keynote speech, although it could have been another), so they decided to give the player the ability to influence this inherent imbalance in their favor through skills, fittings, the metagame, superior resources, etc. CCP doesn't care about game balance in the micro equation. They are only concerned about the macro, that the game is balanced when all its parts are added together. This balancing act is always ongoing, because of the tools that CCP gives us.
Something that was fine a few months ago can become a threat to the macro balance because someone found a new way to use old stuff, or because something that seemed completely unrelated had an unanticipated ripple effect. For CCP, balance becomes an issue only when a given tactic or fitting is so dominant that the only realistic way to achieve victory is to use it. If it came to the point that the only way to win a match was to have four fully fit and manned Sagaris tanks on your team, and no other tactic had a realistic chance at victory, they would take a look at tanks.
A thousand times this. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.27 13:49:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:They should look at tanks. 3 marauder is instant win if you have 3 people who will cap an objective. Did you read my comment a few posts before yours? I've been in a game with 3 Marauders on the other team, and we not only won, but we took one of them out while doing so.
Cautious tanks are hard to kill, but the more cautious they are, the less useful they are to the objective. Coordinated AV can eliminate tanks from the equation pretty quickly. |
Enervating
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2012.07.27 14:11:00 -
[36] - Quote
Couldn't have said it better.
Only thing I'd add. Of course theres some balance issues. It's beta. Things are being accelerated, others are being neglected to see what happens. There's no point in crying, just innovate to find the counter. CCP allways puts one in. |
PEEEEEEETREEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
781
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Posted - 2012.07.27 14:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Tony Calif wrote:They should look at tanks. 3 marauder is instant win if you have 3 people who will cap an objective. Did you read my comment a few posts before yours? I've been in a game with 3 Marauders on the other team, and we not only won, but we took one of them out while doing so. Cautious tanks are hard to kill, but the more cautious they are, the less useful they are to the objective. Coordinated AV can eliminate tanks from the equation pretty quickly.
yeah i've found it really easy to avoid tanks, especially since most are too scared to really engage people.
A lot of money rolling around that map. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.07.27 14:47:00 -
[38] - Quote
So do tell me what the counter to it. Because your anecdotes about team work don't cut it. I killed a SURYA driving a SICA 1vs1 My story is better.
Now, I still don't see how you can argue... 3 Sagaris occupied your whole team. You didn't win. They lost. You killed 1. Gz.
Any marauder can kill the entire AV group in about 5 seconds. Half the time it would take to kill or seriously damage the HAV. Note that Gunloggi's can soak pretty much the same amount of damage. The problem isn't killing Marauders, it's killing them before they kill you and your whole team. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.27 15:02:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:So do tell me what the counter to it. Because your anecdotes about team work don't cut it. I killed a SURYA driving a SICA 1vs1 My story is better.
Now, I still don't see how you can argue... 3 Sagaris occupied your whole team. You didn't win. They lost. You killed 1. Gz.
Any marauder can kill the entire AV group in about 5 seconds. Half the time it would take to kill or seriously damage the HAV. Note that Gunloggi's can soak pretty much the same amount of damage. The problem isn't killing Marauders, it's killing them before they kill you and your whole team. 6 people, dropped from above and spread around the tank rather than all attacking from the same direction. AV grenades in from all of them, then two with Forge Guns opened fire.
It took less than 10 seconds to die, and only got 2 kills while it happened.
We had 6 people with AV grenades, 2 of whom were using Forge Guns, one with Swarm Launcher, and the other 3 had ARs and SMGs to deal with anyone smart enough to bail from their dying vehicles. Of the rest of the team, I was on anti-air and support duty with a Swarm Launcher and Repair Tool, and was backing up the one-gunner Dropship (which got shot down twice, for a total of 3 Dropships used on our team, while the enemy team almost permanently had 2 in the air) while the rest of the team were running ARs and SMGs and guarding the points, killing anyone who hopped out of their tanks to try and capture anything.
That doesn't sound like the whole team was AV. The whole enemy team was in vehicles, but our team had a decent set of AV counters supported by AP weaponry and we kept their vehicles from doing any real damage while successfully taking out a well-fitted Marauder and a decently-fitted non-Marauder tank.
I also personally shot down an Eryx and a Prometheus as well as helping out on several other Dropships (at least 2 were Militia though). The Eryx I soloed, the Prometheus was hit a couple of times by our Dropship before I finished the job. I also spent a lot of time keeping my teammates alive, patching them up after near-misses from the enemy tanks, and cleaning the scratches from their armour when someone had jumped out for a hack attempt. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.07.27 15:13:00 -
[40] - Quote
7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;) |
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Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 04:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;)
your point is ridiculous and irrelevant....
of course a tank will be stronger than only a few infantry.....
ive put millions of sp into my tanks and i spend a lot of money and effort to keep them running. i do the best i can to help my team and id rather go 6/0 than lose and go 25/0.
im tired of seeing people complain about a tank doing what a tank is meant to do... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.28 05:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;) 7 people to kill 1 tank WITH 3 PEOPLE IN IT, and 5 or so infantry who were also nearby.
Sounds fair to me. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 05:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Tony Calif wrote:7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;) 7 people to kill 1 tank WITH 3 PEOPLE IN IT, and 5 or so infantry who were also nearby. Sounds fair to me.
^voice of reason |
Arcushek Dion
Doomheim
73
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Posted - 2012.07.28 05:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
I love getting 3 dings when I kill a tank. Most I ever got though was killing a dropship. 5 kills 1 forge gun shot. Heh I never get discouraged when the enemy fields lots of vehicles. Hell I'll go suicide in my proto AR fit just to switch to AV cause I know I'll make at least 300K at the end of the match. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 06:20:00 -
[45] - Quote
Arcushek Dion wrote:I love getting 3 dings when I kill a tank. Most I ever got though was killing a dropship. 5 kills 1 forge gun shot. Heh I never get discouraged when the enemy fields lots of vehicles. Hell I'll go suicide in my proto AR fit just to switch to AV cause I know I'll make at least 300K at the end of the match.
hey man, if you are able to kill me in my tank, please get paid however much you get, youve earned it. seriously. |
Omnipotent lilmamaj
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
205
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Posted - 2012.07.28 06:24:00 -
[46] - Quote
Tanks are OP in real life. God nerf them |
DON RODIE II
Deep Space Republic
168
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Posted - 2012.07.28 06:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
I hate cod |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
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Posted - 2012.07.28 07:00:00 -
[48] - Quote
DON RODIE II wrote:I hate cod Then eat trout instead. Problem solved. |
Omnipotent lilmamaj
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
205
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Posted - 2012.07.28 07:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
DON RODIE II wrote:I hate cod So does every human being. Its like saying I hate getting paper cuts. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 07:01:00 -
[50] - Quote
DON RODIE II wrote:I hate cod
COD is a good game, and it has done a lot of good things. It is unfortunate however that the company doesnt care about the game, just a monthly paycheck.
I like Dust for all the reasons that its different from COD |
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Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
xAckie wrote:I run around on type 1 2 scout or A assault for the proto swarm and complex damagers - I have over 22m in ISK i cant spend. I dont care about equipment loss. It goes up no matter how much i die in game
THERE is the problem with people complaining about tanks.
Please realize that the number of RICH tank drivers can probably be counted on one hand. With a couple of fingers missing even.
Even on a good round, I barely break even if I loose my tank, meaning I'm always cash strapped, saving up for the next one, ye there you are, obviously an amateur, barely being able to do what other AV guys do so well, and yet you are swimming in cash, making much more per round than you put in.
I'm seeing this myself. If I need cash to save up for my next tank, I just strap on my 20k ISK assault suit with proto swarm, and run around, plant drop links, and shoot at drop ships/tanks for a while, and easily get a 10:1 return on investment.
But I hate running around like that. I love the tank game, because it is not easy. I just hate that people think that tank drivers are the only ones that are not supposed to be making any money. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 08:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
every complaint people have about tanks is irrelevant since we are in beta WHICH MEANS
no orbital strikes, mtacs, vtols, artillery, etc......in game yet
how are you gonna feel when you attack a funded corporation and they throw money at you in order to keep their planets? |
xAckie
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
125
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Posted - 2012.07.28 16:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
Dewie Cheecham wrote:
Even on a good round, I barely break even if I loose my tank, meaning I'm always cash strapped, saving up for the next one, ye there you are, obviously an amateur, barely being able to do what other AV guys do so well, and yet you are swimming in cash, making much more per round than you put in.
It was the same game you were in. And what you throughout that game was orgasm about that tank and say I have to message the guy and find out his build.
I have cash because I can blow **** up, cap objectives, drop uplinks, and kill people. This isnt my first FPS, hence I dont need to run around in proto - and would rather spend sp to try out what all other stuff does. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.07.28 16:48:00 -
[54] - Quote
You are all beyond help. 7vs1 is fair kknp. I'll skill HAV's next build. Did them last build. But tbh 7vs1 won't cut it vs a PROPER Sagaris. Until we have people prepared to go public with their HAV fit with 30k ehp as some guristas pirate was saying, it's tough to test. I'm skeptical at anything beyond 20k tbh |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
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Posted - 2012.07.28 16:51:00 -
[55] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:every complaint people have about tanks is irrelevant since we are in beta WHICH MEANS
no orbital strikes, mtacs, vtols, artillery, etc......in game yet
how are you gonna feel when you attack a funded corporation and they throw money at you in order to keep their planets?
Probably won't bother thanks. But that's ok because EvE corps are pussies who hardly attack each other. Factional war will be where it's at. Edit: most EvE corps that is. I am making huge generalisations with that statement. |
TEBOW BAGGINS
FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED TACNET
549
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Posted - 2012.07.28 17:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lately I seen ppl playing like total retards:
Rushing their troop out into the open to try to frontal charge tanks with AR's/HMGs
Shotgunning at a target from 50m
Shotgunning tanks
Trying to solo with mass drivers
Trying to solo tanks with mass drivers
Freaking out when someone's tryng to repair them- spazing out as if the logistics guy is trying to jerk them off and then running headlong into 5 enemy with on only 10% armor.
Heavies running accross the plateu and refusing rides..
Crouching
These noobs are dying for a reason not because anything is that over powered they're just playing like complete morons.
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Bresker Veyne
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
152
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Posted - 2012.07.28 17:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
Seeing a tank getting blown up by an orbital bombardement is gonna be such a beautiful thing! Just thinking about all the guys inside the tank getting desintegrated makes me all warm inside. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 17:47:00 -
[58] - Quote
very true
these guys complain about spawn camping at base cause they played at a level deserving of a redline, and even tho they deserve to lose, they eventually will be able to call in strikes, so its all good....
we dont even have EW yet |
Mister Hunt
1
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Posted - 2012.07.28 18:16:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;) So you should be able to solo it with your AR then? This isn't COD, it is a byproduct of EvE, where a frigate is NOT going to solo a Carrier, so a solo soldier should not be able to take down a tank. |
Lurchasaurus
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
808
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Posted - 2012.07.28 18:19:00 -
[60] - Quote
Mister Hunt wrote:Tony Calif wrote:7 people to kill 1. Gz. Tanks aren't OP at all ;) So you should be able to solo it with your AR then? This isn't COD, it is a byproduct of EvE, where a frigate is NOT going to solo a Carrier, so a solo soldier should not be able to take down a tank.
again, well said.
These people dont think about where this game is coming from, or what CCP actually envisions it as being in the future. They liken it to BF3 or COD and cry nerf or buff based on those games. this is incomparable. |
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