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mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.07.24 19:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been mulling over some ideas for the integration of E-Sports with the universe of New Eden and would greatly appreciate your thoughts.
Ideas, feedback, suggestions welcome. Either here or in the comments on the blog.
I'm especially looking for input from those versed in economics and media/entertainment law (you'll see why)
M out. |
Maken Tosch
263
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 19:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
This can go a long way. It's a great read and it would actually give the merc quarter TV (DUST) and the captain quarters TV (EVE) purpose rather than just the generic videos we have now. Once the Incarna features are iterated on in the future this should be the first priority from CCP. |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 20:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Your website does not work, so I'll just comment here on how CCP plans to make DUST514 an e-sport: (This is what the developers said on fanfest) DUST will eventually have a battle mode called "gladiator arena" and in this arena, players will fight with a set of rules. This allows equal items and only player skill to matter. Or who thought of a better fitting for a battle, etc. Now the brilliant part: EVE players (and normal ones too, I guess) can place bets on the results of gladiator battles. Imagine an e-sport that is not only an e-sport, but an actual sport within a game within a game. Crazy good idea :D |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
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Posted - 2012.07.24 21:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
All I can say is wow. That is a lot to take in. I think this idea has massive potential very easily a completely awesome way to promote the game as a whole. All around sounds like fun too.
You know South Korea has like three or four starcraft channels that run 24/7 I wonder if EVE/Dust could manage that. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
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Posted - 2012.07.24 21:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
wow.......well thought out post and can "fit" within the MMO and really make the eSports scene apart of New Eden very impressed with what ive read so far, will finish read up
looking forward to the finishing of this vision u have |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.07.24 22:19:00 -
[6] - Quote
@ Fuma Centuri: Seems to be working for everyone else, try clearing your browser cache. From my understanding of the presentations at FF (I was there and spoke to a few of the Devs) The Gladiator Arena is not set in stone as yet. I know I'm biased but I reckon my way would better integrate the E-Sports side of Dust into the universe. Thanks for yr feedback though :D
@Everyone else, thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated.
Part 4 should be up tomorrow. |
Bones1182
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2012.07.24 22:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
I would say that the gladiator arena could easily fit into the concept the OP has presented. Would at least be a good place to.recruit for the teams. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 01:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bones1182 wrote:I would say that the gladiator arena could easily fit into the concept the OP has presented. Would at least be a good place to.recruit for the teams.
well the gladiator arenas are gonna be used for the eSports scene
read about the server rental, if u doin it like that maybe have a look at my VR training thread which is essentially my view on a place for corps and alliances to practice
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20361&find=unread |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.25 18:00:00 -
[9] - Quote
mandrill the red wrote:@ Fuma Centuri: Seems to be working for everyone else, try clearing your browser cache. From my understanding of the presentations at FF (I was there and spoke to a few of the Devs) The Gladiator Arena is not set in stone as yet. I know I'm biased but I reckon my way would better integrate the E-Sports side of Dust into the universe. Thanks for yr feedback though :D
The website loaded a few minutes later after I posted. I believe I just clicked it so early it wasn't yet published fully hence the error.
If gladiator arenas are not yet in the official plans, then that is sad.
As for your vision: I very much dislike the idea of broadcast rights. Why would any station owner or whatnot bother with people asking for 1,00,000 ISK per match if there will be random folks fighting and asking only 10 ISK for it?
The only thing that will be good in gladiator matches is betting. Watching the match should be free because nobody will watch your match anyway if it's for money. The true income for gladiators will be: A) Set % profits of bets placed - The official CONCORD-sanctioned betting mechanic which guarantees that if you bet X on player A and he wins, you will get your money. You could still make bets between players and omit the fees, but it won't guarantee fair dealings :) B) BRIBES! - Also known as sponsorship. For example funding your gear for the battle so you will surely win. Or lining your pocket with money if they want you to die in the third round, making for an unexpected twist.
Broadcasts should be free, the money should come from people motivating you to win/lose and from the bets placed on you through CONCORD. |
EnIgMa99
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
219
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Posted - 2012.07.25 18:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I want to be one of these glatiators |
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mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.07.26 07:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
There would be gambling and corruption, Real world sports leagues don't make money from gambling (not officially at least) they make money from sponsorship and the sale of broadcast rights.
I fully expect an underground economy to arise which would cater to the seedier side of professional sports.
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Zion Shad
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
1620
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 07:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
mandrill the red wrote:There would be gambling and corruption, Real world sports leagues don't make money from gambling (not officially at least) they make money from sponsorship and the sale of broadcast rights.
I fully expect an underground economy to arise which would cater to the seedier side of professional sports.
Though we bumped heads in my post I find this an interesting concept. Think you might want to check out DUSTUniCon.enjin.com |
Deskalkulos Ildigan
CrimeWave Syndicate
115
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 10:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
huh so esport and betting using the gladiator arena . . .
theres no chance that a certain corps. won't manipulate the betting to get even more filthy rich Oo Hell if i could get some billions of isk out of it, i would hardly hesitate to lose on purpose, gotta repay some very nice folks who helped me with eve. . . |
dust badger
BetaMax.
283
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Posted - 2012.07.26 10:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Deskalkulos Ildigan wrote:huh so esport and betting using the gladiator arena . . .
theres no chance that a certain corps. won't manipulate the betting to get even more filthy rich Oo Hell if i could get some billions of isk out of it, i would hardly hesitate to lose on purpose, gotta repay some very nice folks who helped me with eve. . .
yeah i cant see how they can stop people rigging this |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.26 18:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
dust badger wrote:yeah i cant see how they can stop people rigging this It's the same way with alliance tournaments. There is no way to prevent people from rigging the results.
I don't want betting to be shady. Betting on gladiators needs to be NPC-controlled. This is the only way to guarantee a fair cut of the earnings to the gladiator himself. Broadcast rights are crap and a dime a dozen (and also should be free) compared to earning a percent of the whole bets pool. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 09:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Fuma Centuri wrote:dust badger wrote:yeah i cant see how they can stop people rigging this It's the same way with alliance tournaments. There is no way to prevent people from rigging the results. I don't want betting to be shady. Betting on gladiators needs to be NPC-controlled. This is the only way to guarantee a fair cut of the earnings to the gladiator himself. Broadcast rights are crap and a dime a dozen (and also should be free) compared to earning a percent of the whole bets pool.
Dust is an offshoot of EVE. Corruption, underhandedness, Machiavellian machinations, and meta-gaming are part of the universe. Get used to it and start practising, The big alliances in EVE have had a decade of practice and unless you're ready they will completely dominate the Dust E-Sports scene, whatever form it might take, by fair means or foul.
CCP's attitude is that as long as it doesn't violate the ToS and EULA (hack the client, exploit a known bug, etc etc) that it's fair game. You're going to have to get used to that in Dust as well.
There may well be an official and legitimate channel for betting, but this does not preclude there being an underground culture for it. Makes life in New Eden more interesting, and more interesting is more fun. |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 10:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
mandrill the red wrote:[quote=Fuma Centuri]Dust is an offshoot of EVE. Corruption, underhandedness, Machiavellian machinations, and meta-gaming are part of the universe. Get used to it and start practising, The big alliances in EVE have had a decade of practice and unless you're ready they will completely dominate the Dust E-Sports scene, whatever form it might take, by fair means or foul.
CCP's attitude is that as long as it doesn't violate the ToS and EULA (hack the client, exploit a known bug, etc etc) that it's fair game. You're going to have to get used to that in Dust as well.
There may well be an official and legitimate channel for betting, but this does not preclude there being an underground culture for it. Makes life in New Eden more interesting, and more interesting is more fun.
Did you even read my posts?
Let me quote the relevant bits from them:
Quote:The true income for gladiators will be: A) Set % profits of bets placed - The official CONCORD-sanctioned betting mechanic which guarantees that if you bet X on player A and he wins, you will get your money. You could still make bets between players and omit the fees, but it won't guarantee fair dealings :) B) BRIBES! - Also known as sponsorship. For example funding your gear for the battle so you will surely win. Or lining your pocket with money if they want you to die in the third round, making for an unexpected twist.
Quote: Betting on gladiators needs to be NPC-controlled. This is the only way to guarantee a fair cut of the earnings to the gladiator himself.
My point is that broadcast rights for sale will and should not be the main income. People don't want to pay for television shows in real life, why pay for shows inside video games? Betting is where the money will come from for gladiators which are not taking bribes. The only way to encourage random players to bet on random matches for fun is to make betting NPC controlled. This eliminates risk of fraud and gives people an entertaining past-time activity while also rewarding gladiators. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 14:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
Where did I say that broadcast rights would be the main income? They would be a part of the legitimate income, just as they are in real world sports leagues along with sponsorship, and merchandising.
Sky bought the exclusive broadcast rights to the UK Premier League for -ú3billion (they pass that cost on the those who subscribe and they show ads so make money from sponsorship too) to their service or pay-per-view for matches.
I know of no real world sports associations that get the major part of their income from gambling, in fact in a lot of countries and sports to do so is considered highly unethical. Gambling goes on, no doubt, but it is not a part of the mainstream sport culture and certainly not a part of sport's legitimate income.
Most of the individual team's income comes from ticket sales, people pay at the gate to go see their team play live. This is not practical in EVE or Dust for obvious reasons so some other way has to be found. My idea proposes a system, and the associated mechanics, which will allow teams to gain an income from playing matches and allowing people to watch. I was aiming at a system which mirrors the way such things work in real-life, where gambling is a grey area, as closely as possible. It's the grey areas of New Eden where the most interesting player stories come from, and I'm sure we all want to empower players to tell those stories.
The roles I laid out in the second post in my series are not mutually exclusive. A team need not sell their broadcast rights to a third partybut may be their own broadcaster if they want. |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.27 15:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
No. Simply, no. Betting needs to be official and legal. Without that there is pretty much no chance for "little league" gladiators to have any way to profit. This way they can randomly get some viewers that bet money and 1% or something gets sent the gladiator's way.
Grey area can still exist for people who want to skip the transaction fee. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 11:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
There's plenty of room for the 'little-league' players, that is beyond the scope of my concept however. The concept I put forward only deals with individual players in terms of how they fit into the bigger system of Teams, Leagues etc. Saying that the inclusion of systems and mechanics that facilitate the formation of player organised teams, competitions and tournaments and the secondary industries that could profit from these excludes the little guy is nonsense. Does the existence of the systems that allow for corporations and alliances in EVE prevent the lone hi-sec miner/PvE'r from having a place in EVE? No, it doesn't. The little guys are not going to change the face of New Eden, but then they shouldn't expect to, doesn't mean that there isn't a place for them.
Define 'Official and Legal'. Do you mean controlled and regulated by CCP? CCP won't do it for a variety of reasons.
1) Their development philosophy has always been merely to provide the tools and opportunities to players to create emergent content in their universe, staying out of the economics and politics of New Eden as much as is possible. 2) The tin-foil hatters will cry foul at every conceivable opportunity. Accusations of favouritism, CCP permitted cheating, etc etc will fly.
CCP should remain as hands off from any gambling systems as possible, merely providing the means for players to organise their own (which they're going to do anyway whether CCP provides tools for it or not)
It is the hands off approach that CCP has taken towards EVE with regard to the regulation of player behaviour that is what has made EVE so great, I see no reason for CCP to change that approach for Dust.
ISK is not the true currency of EVE, it is just a number, a way of keeping score. The true currency of EVE is trust, and the risk that you could trust the wrong people is where the thrill comes from and what creates the greatest stories. |
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Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 11:21:00 -
[21] - Quote
First, I'll lay out some of my assumptions about what the gladiator arena should IMO be: - Accessible to every player, regardless of affiliation, friends, corps, money, skill, etc. - Generate enough income that a player with completely basic gear will earn a profit (low compared to normal contracts, but a profit nonetheless) when they win.
With your vision of broadcast rights as the only guaranteed income source, the above statements will not be fulfilled. In EVE have a lot of choice, but that doesn't mean you can do whatever you want and enjoy it. In DUST there is (and probably never be) not a lot of choice and preventing people from enjoying some activities because they are profitable only as long as you meet arbitrary criteria is bad game design, IMO. I'm not asking for carebear protection, I just want people who know how to fight to be rewarded in the game with money (the universal incentive) and have fun without requiring meta-game sheningans.
By "official and legal" I meant CONCORD or somesuch NPC organisation, let's say the Gladiator Arena Betting Enterprise. The only function of GABE is to provide a mechanism of safely placing bets and safely receiving rewards, while giving gladiators a cut of the money. If there's a fight between A and B, you bet 10k on A (I have no method of automatically calculating odds that can't be exploited, so let's skip it) and somebody bets 10k on B. GABEs function here will be to pay out 20k (minus a small percentage processing fee and gladiator reward) nothing more and nothing less.
The existance of GABE will guarantee that as long as somebody bored in EVE finds your match in the list of matches that are about to start/ongoing and places a bet, you will earn some ISK upon victory.
With broadcast rights, you would need to meta-game and advertise how nice your battles are so that someone buys them. With GABE you just enter a fight and worry about nothing. |
Forlorn Destrier
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
914
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 12:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Fuma Centuri wrote:Your website does not work, so I'll just comment here on how CCP plans to make DUST514 an e-sport: (This is what the developers said on fanfest) DUST will eventually have a battle mode called "gladiator arena" and in this arena, players will fight with a set of rules. This allows equal items and only player skill to matter. Or who thought of a better fitting for a battle, etc. Now the brilliant part: EVE players (and normal ones too, I guess) can place bets on the results of gladiator battles. Imagine an e-sport that is not only an e-sport, but an actual sport within a game within a game. Crazy good idea :D
I hadn't heard about this - me likes. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 18:35:00 -
[23] - Quote
@ Fuma Centuri: There is nothing to prevent lone players participating in just such a gladiatorial system as you describe. I'll restate that the lone gladiator, and contests involving lone gladiators fall outside the scope of my concept. This does not mean that they cannot exist. I'm not disagreeing with you, there should be a way for a single player to just jump into an e-sports match (though why they would want to when they'd earn more just jumping into a normal dust match), play, and make money.
There should also be an avenue for organised teams and leagues to exist and make their money. One does not necessarily preclude the other.
You're trying to start an argument over nothing.
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Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.30 18:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
I have nothing against the idea of optionally making the match pay-only to view to ensure some additional profits to the participants. I do, however, want people to have a choice to play this way or that way and earn money regardless of choice. If someone wants to be a gladiator without EVE friends to back him, he should be able to do it and make some money. That's why I want something like GABE that lets random people bet on random games and guarantee payouts to all parties (except the losers).
A different approach which could better co-exist with your vision would be: Force gladiators to bet money on themselves. In order to enter battle, one must bet the same amount as the opponent. Whoever wins takes it all. This also sidesteps the problem of nobody in EVE caring about small battles thus not paying to view it or betting on it. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 08:45:00 -
[25] - Quote
Everything is optional, that was the general idea of the original concept. To create systems and mechanics which widened the options available to both Dust and EVE players. None of it would be compulsory, just as taking and holding 0.0 space as part of a big alliance in EVE is optional.
To support this argument: I've been playing EVE since January 2004 and have never been involved in the 0.0 'endgame' of EVE. I've never been forced to do anything in EVE. And the same should apply to Dust.
EVE is a game about choices, if you choose to go the 0.0 route, fair enough. Its a hard road and the rewards are (more or less) proportional to that. If a Dust corp or player chooses to go the pro-esports route there should be as many ways to do so as possible with the rewards scaling with the level of involvement. My concept is merely one idea of how it could happen, and shouldn't in any way prevent there being other avenues available.
I still get the feeling that we're talking at cross-purposes. Your concern is the micro-economic scale of the individual player, mine is at the macro scale of how an entirely new entertainment industry could be introduced to New Eden. |
vermacht Doe
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 10:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think it should involve a third person melee system to differ it from regular combat. To give people a good chance without having to be the best in dust/eve |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 11:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
@vermacht Doe: What? How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? Put it in Feedback/Requests (Ain't gonna happen though) |
vermacht Doe
93
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 12:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
mandrill the red wrote:@vermacht Doe: What? How is that relevant to the discussion at hand? Put it in Feedback/Requests (Ain't gonna happen though)
To go with the gladiator system. 3 different gameplay types in two games, flight fps and melee
Ps smart typing my name instead of using quote genuis(intentional misspelling) |
Fuma Centuri
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
107
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 18:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
mandrill the red wrote:Everything is optional, that was the general idea of the original concept. To create systems and mechanics which widened the options available to both Dust and EVE players. None of it would be compulsory, just as taking and holding 0.0 space as part of a big alliance in EVE is optional. There is nothing forcing you to go 0.0, but there are some aspects of the game that are specifically tuned to groups, like exploration. This is a personal example since I wanted to be an EVE explorer. Back when I started, the whole thing was extremely tedious and took over ten minutes per scan to do, and the rewards weren't much. Now with wormholes, exploration has become much more exciting, but it's impossible to do alone. You cannot have an exploration ship fitted with probes that can at the same time solo any wormhole encounters. So while I technically have choice, it is impossible for me to actually do wormhole exploration alone. Doing it in groups is forced on me.
As such. I do what I can to voice my concerns about forcing anything on the player in DUST. I won't mind people doing metagame selling of broadcasts deals with other people and doing stuff related to the game outside of the game. They should get more rewards for putting more effort, but in no case should it be that a player who chooses not to bother, will be unable to use this feature at all, because without an audience they won't earn anything.
Quote:I still get the feeling that we're talking at cross-purposes. Your concern is the micro-economic scale of the individual player, mine is at the macro scale of how an entirely new entertainment industry could be introduced to New Eden. I think you are right, but the micro-scale concerns me much more greatly and dearly than some grand economic scheme I have no interest and time to care about :)
vermacht Doe wrote:I think it should involve a third person melee system to differ it from regular combat. To give people a good chance without having to be the best in dust/eve No. You will simply have selectable rules for the arena. Like for example: No gun. No REs. No knives. No jumping. Fox only. Final destination. |
vermacht Doe
93
|
Posted - 2012.08.01 04:34:00 -
[30] - Quote
Fuma Centuri wrote:mandrill the red wrote:Everything is optional, that was the general idea of the original concept. To create systems and mechanics which widened the options available to both Dust and EVE players. None of it would be compulsory, just as taking and holding 0.0 space as part of a big alliance in EVE is optional. There is nothing forcing you to go 0.0, but there are some aspects of the game that are specifically tuned to groups, like exploration. This is a personal example since I wanted to be an EVE explorer. Back when I started, the whole thing was extremely tedious and took over ten minutes per scan to do, and the rewards weren't much. Now with wormholes, exploration has become much more exciting, but it's impossible to do alone. You cannot have an exploration ship fitted with probes that can at the same time solo any wormhole encounters. So while I technically have choice, it is impossible for me to actually do wormhole exploration alone. Doing it in groups is forced on me. As such. I do what I can to voice my concerns about forcing anything on the player in DUST. I won't mind people doing metagame selling of broadcasts deals with other people and doing stuff related to the game outside of the game. They should get more rewards for putting more effort, but in no case should it be that a player who chooses not to bother, will be unable to use this feature at all, because without an audience they won't earn anything. Quote:I still get the feeling that we're talking at cross-purposes. Your concern is the micro-economic scale of the individual player, mine is at the macro scale of how an entirely new entertainment industry could be introduced to New Eden. I think you are right, but the micro-scale concerns me much more greatly and dearly than some grand economic scheme I have no interest and time to care about :) vermacht Doe wrote:I think it should involve a third person melee system to differ it from regular combat. To give people a good chance without having to be the best in dust/eve No. You will simply have selectable rules for the arena. Like for example: No gun. No REs. No knives. No jumping. Fox only. Final destination.
Has selectable rules been confirmed? And if so who decides them |
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