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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
8152
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Posted - 2017.06.02 16:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I wanted to discuss what worked with the fitting system in DUST and why it worked, as well as examining how to make the that fitting system more accessible to new or less analytical players. I realize that it looks like CCP is taking a different approach in Nova, but the underlying principles of what interests players and what turns players off has not changed, so I expect this discussion should be relevant to the new system as well.
The Fitting system in DUST was complex. Complexity in a game can be good or bad. A complex task that forms a mini game that has relevance to the larger game can be a lot of fun and add a lot to the game. But a complex task that the player does not find to be fun can be a real chore, or can even be a source of confusion and anxiety.
For analytical players the fitting system in DUST was one of the primary factors that set DUST a step above other FPS games. For this type of player the challenge of balancing the two resources and coming up with the perfect fit which got the most out of both to make the most optimized fits, was a really fun challenge. It was so satisfying when you finally found a way to fit that weapon you want, by changing your grenades, sidearm, and one of your modules to free up that extra 5 PG that you needed. It also gave you something very entertaining to do when waiting to form a squad or other times when you were not in a match for whatever reason.
But I also understand that DUST players were not all highly analytical spreadsheet wizards. There were people who found the fitting system confusing or tedious. These were people who would ask their friends what to fit, or ask on the forum, and then just go with that. For these people the fitting system was just a chore they had to do before they could play.
I think the answer to this dichotomy is to facilitate the dynamic of sharing fits that already happened naturally. Allow the Analytical people to share their masterpieces more easily, and allow the less analytical people a fitting system which is just plug and play.
Allow players to share/trade/sell fits. Make these fits plug & play if the player has the skills to use them. Give new players a set of fits to start with, and have other fits available on the market. Then give players the ability to make their own custom fits, save them, and then sell them on the market, or send them to other players.
There should also be a mechanic to display a list of requirements for a fit to be used and an indication of which prerequisites are not met, so when the player opens a fit they canGÇÖt use, they know what they need to train to be able to use the fit. Maybe even have a button to automatically add the necessary fitting skills to your training plan, so a player can buy the fit they want to use, press the GÇ£Train for ThisGÇ¥ button, and then not have to think about their skill training again until they can use the fit. Maybe also have a flag in the market listing to indicate if a fit is new player accessible, requires moderate skill training, or requires advanced training.
Make a system where the Analytical players can have fun crunching numbers and optimizing their fits, and the Run & Gun players who just want to get into the action can just buy fits that suit their needs so they donGÇÖt have to get bogged down in the details. Make a system which is both simple and complex at the same time, so it meets every playerGÇÖs needs.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1928
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Posted - 2017.06.02 17:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
I was just thinking the ability to sell fits would be useless, once people just start sharing them freely...
So then I thought, what if people could copyright their fits... If you're the first person to apply to copyright a specific fit you pay a daily fee of isk to CCP, while other people wanting to use that fit incur a charge per battle each time they use the fit, that money then goes to the copyright holder.
Of course, this would have been silly as hell, but it would have stopped people spamming proto fits in pubs, since the charge for a decent high up fit would no doubt have been aimed at people making their money in PC.
Also, it would **** me off something terrible as I generally just trial and errored all of my fits... I did not enjoy sitting on the menu trying to eek out that extra little bit of performance. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
8154
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Posted - 2017.06.02 17:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I reference the market simply as an easy way to share fits with strangers. If someone is the first in their group of friends to start playing Nova, and they have not made friends with any Analytical players yet, they may not know anyone willing to share a fit with them, but they will always have the market.
The type of people who like making fits, are probably more interested in showing off their fitting skills more than making money, so I expect there would be lots of good fits available as a reasonable price.
To further enhance the system, it would be nice to have a rating system where you can rate any fit you own on a scale of 1 to 5 stars. Then the average ratting of the fit, and the number of players who rated it, would appear for that fit anywhere it is viewed, including on the market, making it easier for people to choose good fits.
The author of the fit should also be displayed in the fitting screen. So with the author name, the average rating, and the number of people who rated the suit all displayed, it gives prestige to anyone who can come up with a popular fit, while at the same time allowing people who buy their fits to make informed purchasing decisions.
With this in mind, fitting authors won't set their price too high, because then no one will buy their fits and rate them. Of course they may raze the price once a fit is highly rated, but that is a reflection of value, which is appropriate.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
28102
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Posted - 2017.06.02 17:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
as fits are contextual to a Dropsuit, sorry to say, I like the intent, but a lot of the core concepts of saved fittings, market, skillbooks, training aren't going to be as they are in EVE nor DUST for that matter.
If we want to explore sharing, i would think "real" sharing from a corp or a friend are more applicable, as borrowing one dropsuit from a friend for a day, or that kind of thing.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
8154
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Posted - 2017.06.02 17:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:as fits are contextual to a Dropsuit, sorry to say, I like the intent, but a lot of the core concepts of saved fittings, market, skillbooks, training aren't going to be as they are in EVE nor DUST for that matter.
If we want to explore sharing, i would think "real" sharing from a corp or a friend are more applicable, as borrowing one dropsuit from a friend for a day, or that kind of thing.
If you have found a different system which allows deep dives for us Analytical players, while also providing simple solutions for new players and those who donGÇÖt want to do chores before jumping into the action, then that is fine with me. Just promise me you have not dumbed it all down to cater to people with short attention spans.
The idea of physically sharing fitted suits sounds interesting.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9381
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Posted - 2017.06.02 17:52:00 -
[6] - Quote
If anything simply being able to show another player "Hey this is the fitting I use for that role" rather than needing to verbally describe it would be a huge benefit.
Paladins does something where you can view the fits of your friends or people from the leaderboard. If you have the ability to build that fit with the items you have in your inventory, it will let you directly save and use it. If you don't have all the items it simply shows you what you have and don't have, and you can either buy what you don't have or tweak the fit till it's 100% what you do have.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2793
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Posted - 2017.06.02 18:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9382
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Posted - 2017.06.02 18:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Where did you get that impression?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2793
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Posted - 2017.06.02 20:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Where did you get that impression?
No tiers, single resource, single suit, etc. Streamlined dust fitting.
Unless I'm no longer familiar with the idea of complex 
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 20:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Where did you get that impression? No tiers, single resource, single suit, etc. Streamlined dust fitting. Unless I'm no longer familiar with the idea of complex
-Power tiers being replaced with sidegrades. No loss in options there.
-Resources are still up in the air on how they'll be handled.
-Not a single suit, 6 different suits. Which is one class more than Dust had.
-Addition of Capacitor brings in new fitting/gameplay challenges to overcome
-Addition of Firmware slot brings in new fitting options.
-Less restrictions on fittings means more open ended fitting, which provides more freedom to make both good and bad decisions.
I guess you did forget the definition of complex?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2793
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Posted - 2017.06.02 21:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Where did you get that impression? No tiers, single resource, single suit, etc. Streamlined dust fitting. Unless I'm no longer familiar with the idea of complex -Power tiers being replaced with sidegrades. No loss in options there. -Resources are still up in the air on how they'll be handled. -Not a single suit, 6 different suits. Which is one class more than Dust had. -Addition of Capacitor brings in new fitting/gameplay challenges to overcome -Addition of Firmware slot brings in new fitting options. -Less restrictions on fittings means more open ended fitting, which provides more freedom to make both good and bad decisions.
To decide on that we would need to see some battles in Nova. With no vehicles and smaller maps all tactics will be reserved for foot combat. You are going to be restricted with fits per battle.
I believe that complexity grows on par with the amount of obstacles you have to get through during a battle. As each obstacle requires a different approach thus a different fit / playstyle.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.02 21:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Restricting the number of fits your bring forces more planning with your teammates to make sure all roles are covered, rather than everyone with 50 fits being able to do anything at a moment's notice.
Also I'm not exactly sure why you assume the removal of vehicles will yield fewer obstacles players must overcome. Have you played the most recent build maps? Are you familiar with all the game modes in Nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes Dust had?
Surely you're not basing your assumption off of a tech demo I hope.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
17204
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Posted - 2017.06.02 21:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Where did you get that impression? No tiers, single resource, single suit, etc. Streamlined dust fitting. Unless I'm no longer familiar with the idea of complex -Power tiers being replaced with sidegrades. No loss in options there. -Resources are still up in the air on how they'll be handled. -Not a single suit, 6 different suits. Which is one class more than Dust had. -Addition of Capacitor brings in new fitting/gameplay challenges to overcome -Addition of Firmware slot brings in new fitting options. -Less restrictions on fittings means more open ended fitting, which provides more freedom to make both good and bad decisions. To decide on that we would need to see some battles in Nova. With no vehicles and smaller maps all tactics will be reserved for foot combat. You are going to be restricted with fits per battle. I believe that complexity grows on par with the amount of obstacles you have to get through during a battle. As each obstacle requires a different approach thus a different fit / playstyle.
Complexity is often a matter of constraints. The extreme of being able to fit everything and use every suit makes it just as boring.
Its not that you don't have fitting freedom, its that you have to make more of an effort to fit what you want. Its not that you can't have suit adjustments in game, its that no one player can have suits for every occasion. Now, instead of having just the right suit for an incredibly niche situation, you have to learn to either make fits that are Jacks of All Trades, or make stronger, specialized fits.
Just because Nova will be different than Dust doesn't mean it will be less fun.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
1501
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Posted - 2017.06.02 23:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:as fits are contextual to a Dropsuit, sorry to say, I like the intent, but a lot of the core concepts of saved fittings, market, skillbooks, training aren't going to be as they are in EVE nor DUST for that matter.
If we want to explore sharing, i would think "real" sharing from a corp or a friend are more applicable, as borrowing one dropsuit from a friend for a day, or that kind of thing. If you have found a different system which allows deep dives for us Analytical players, while also providing simple solutions for new players and those who donGÇÖt want to do chores before jumping into the action, then that is fine with me. Just promise me you have not dumbed it all down to cater to people with short attention spans. People with short attention spans are just going to move on to the next game after a few weeks anyway. The idea of physically sharing fitted suits sounds interesting.
is the game free to play or is there a cost?
because if a person with short attention span pays for game and then leaves, CCP still got their money.
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Nomex Gallatin
Direct Action Resources
Rise Of Legion.
195
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Posted - 2017.06.02 23:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
This.
Fox Gaden wrote: If you have found a different system which allows deep dives for us Analytical players, while also providing simple solutions for new players and those who donGÇÖt want to do chores before jumping into the action, then that is fine with me. Just promise me you have not dumbed it all down to cater to people with short attention spans. People with short attention spans are just going to move on to the next game after a few weeks anyway.
GǣGǪ shatter the enemy and then the terrain will fall into your hands by itself.Gǥ - General Heinz Gaedke
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DUST Fiend
19269
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Posted - 2017.06.02 23:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Restricting the number of fits your bring forces more planning with your teammates to make sure all roles are covered, rather than everyone with 50 fits being able to do anything at a moment's notice.
Also I'm not exactly sure why you assume the removal of vehicles will yield fewer obstacles players must overcome. Have you played the most recent build maps? Are you familiar with all the game modes in Nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes Dust had?
Surely you're not basing your assumption off of a tech demo I hope.
What do you want people to base their assumptions on? CCP should be thrilled that people even care enough to be salty at this point. Give people next to no information and their imaginations will run wild in either direction.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9383
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Posted - 2017.06.03 00:07:00 -
[17] - Quote
Um, Not make assumptions? Lol
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Syeven Reed
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
1314
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Posted - 2017.06.03 01:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:as fits are contextual to a Dropsuit, sorry to say, I like the intent, but a lot of the core concepts of saved fittings, market, skillbooks, training aren't going to be as they are in EVE nor DUST for that matter.
If we want to explore sharing, i would think "real" sharing from a corp or a friend are more applicable, as borrowing one dropsuit from a friend for a day, or that kind of thing.
This s good, I really cannot think why skill books we're a market thing. Except for the ISK sink.
I'm interested to see where your direction will take the game. :)
SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED
EvE - 21 Day Trial
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DUST Fiend
19270
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Posted - 2017.06.03 04:48:00 -
[19] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Um, Not make assumptions? Lol
Well considering the info we're getting isn't even necessarily finalized, literally any talk about Nova is an assumption at this point so...good luck with that one.
We're all still assuming it's not Vaporware. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9384
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Posted - 2017.06.03 06:21:00 -
[20] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Um, Not make assumptions? Lol Well considering the info we're getting isn't even necessarily finalized, literally any talk about Nova is an assumption at this point so...good luck with that one. We're all still assuming it's not Vaporware.
You have a magical way of thinking don't you?
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Sylwester Dziewiecki
Interregnum.
618
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Posted - 2017.06.03 12:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Yea, like Dust fittings were complex.. "fit as many shield extenders, and armor plates as you can with proto weapon - it's gone work great for you!"
This is Skirmish v1.0.
In my free time I like to spend time.
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
1277
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Posted - 2017.06.03 15:23:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sharing Fits sounds like a good idea to help new players but as Rattati mentions given that they will have differing XP spent so far they will effectively be invalid fittings
In the Civilisation game series, say you want to research the Printing Press but you don't have the prerequisites you can still select it to research towards and the game works out which techs you need to research beforehand and queues them up.
I would suggest the same applies in Nova, someone shares their fit with you, you can flag it as your 'goal dropsuit' and the system spits out a loadout you can currently fit, then automatically allocates SP/ISK as you play to acheive that 'goal dropsuit'
it allows the more detail focused player to calculate exactly how to achieve their optimal layout but allows the more casual player to work towards the playstyle they like without getting bogged down in the details
The Final PLC Kill
Dust 514 - My Final Moments
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2793
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Posted - 2017.06.03 15:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sylwester Dziewiecki wrote:Mejt0 wrote:Will there be a need to share a fit? From the way things look you are not going to build any complex fits.
Yea, like Dust fittings were complex.. "fit as many shield extenders, and armor plates as you can with proto weapon - it's gone work great for you!"
It depends. Overall fitting in Dust wasn't complex for me. But it could get pretty fast. Have you tried fitting proto tanks / ADS?
Fitting a gv.0 or cv.0 was fighting for literally 1-2 pg at a time  You would also crank up numbers : what will be better, more reps or more hardeners, how much damage can you tank with either during a 1min period, with harders and w/o, plate or extra hard/reps?
Don't assume that fitting covers only mere assaults. Think about vehicles and scouts as they required actual thinking.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9386
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Posted - 2017.06.03 18:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
And there could be new things like, more emplace turrets, team wide tactical actions, transporters, deployable drones, and multi level map design. Game modes will also likely be more complicated with addition objectives and pathways to victory.
Do vehicles remove some depth of gameplay? Sure. But that doesn't mean the net change in depth with be a more shallow game.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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Mejt0
Made in Poland...
2795
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Posted - 2017.06.04 08:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:And there could be new things like, more emplace turrets, team wide tactical actions, transporters, deployable drones, and multi level map design. Game modes will also likely be more complicated with addition objectives and pathways to victory.
Do vehicles remove some depth of gameplay? Sure. But that doesn't mean the net change in depth with be a more shallow game.
There could be this and that. But there could also be naught.
Nova has depth in theory.
I'm not jumping to conclusions right away, just being optimistic to a degree.
Vigilant Pilot
Happy Hunting
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deadpool lifetone
D3ATH CARD
RUST415
357
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Posted - 2017.06.04 11:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:as fits are contextual to a Dropsuit, sorry to say, I like the intent, but a lot of the core concepts of saved fittings, market, skillbooks, training aren't going to be as they are in EVE nor DUST for that matter.
If we want to explore sharing, i would think "real" sharing from a corp or a friend are more applicable, as borrowing one dropsuit from a friend for a day, or that kind of thing. If you have found a different system which allows deep dives for us Analytical players, while also providing simple solutions for new players and those who donGÇÖt want to do chores before jumping into the action, then that is fine with me. Just promise me you have not dumbed it all down to cater to people with short attention spans. People with short attention spans are just going to move on to the next game after a few weeks anyway. The idea of physically sharing fitted suits sounds interesting.
.
That took a twist......but on another note , Fox has a point . Some new players may be overwhelmed by the analytical & complexity & tactical approach . But im sure Rat & company will have better tutorial vids & pre-build suits for new players to give them a general idea . I prefer looking at the spreadsheets & calculating my approach & flavor of the month lol also , if we want to expand the EvE universe with the community & new player's for NOVA , gata take them under veteran wings & show them the ropes.....
ProtoFits was always a good go to builder for new players , to bad its no mas....
( F U!!!! ) * ( Why Dead? )
,
(n+Æn+Çn+¢´)GÇón++pâçGòÉS+ÇX - - - - n++(º Gûí º l|l)/
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Russel Moralles
Klandatu
246
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Posted - 2017.06.04 23:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Restricting the number of fits your bring forces more planning with your teammates to make sure all roles are covered, rather than everyone with 50 fits being able to do anything at a moment's notice.
Also I'm not exactly sure why you assume the removal of vehicles will yield fewer obstacles players must overcome. Have you played the most recent build maps? Are you familiar with all the game modes in Nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes Dust had?
Surely you're not basing your assumption off of a tech demo I hope.
So. I'm gonna ask you this Mr. Pokey.
Have you played the most recent build maps of nova?
Are you familiar with all the game modes in nova?
How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes dust had?
Just curious. |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
9391
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Posted - 2017.06.05 00:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Russel Moralles wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Restricting the number of fits your bring forces more planning with your teammates to make sure all roles are covered, rather than everyone with 50 fits being able to do anything at a moment's notice.
Also I'm not exactly sure why you assume the removal of vehicles will yield fewer obstacles players must overcome. Have you played the most recent build maps? Are you familiar with all the game modes in Nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes Dust had?
Surely you're not basing your assumption off of a tech demo I hope. So. I'm gonna ask you this Mr. Pokey. Have you played the most recent build maps of nova? Are you familiar with all the game modes in nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes dust had? Just curious.
Of course not. I'm not making assumptions one way or the other.
Project|Nova - What We Know So Far
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LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
1475
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Posted - 2017.06.05 13:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Russel Moralles wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Restricting the number of fits your bring forces more planning with your teammates to make sure all roles are covered, rather than everyone with 50 fits being able to do anything at a moment's notice.
Also I'm not exactly sure why you assume the removal of vehicles will yield fewer obstacles players must overcome. Have you played the most recent build maps? Are you familiar with all the game modes in Nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes Dust had?
Surely you're not basing your assumption off of a tech demo I hope. So. I'm gonna ask you this Mr. Pokey. Have you played the most recent build maps of nova? Are you familiar with all the game modes in nova? How do you know the battle progression isn't far more involved than the flat game modes dust had? Just curious. Of course not. I'm not making assumptions one way or the other.
But he has spoken with rattati which is more than what we all have. The fitting system will mostly be there just gonna take you a while to get it to a point like in Dust. Unlock Tech 2 in all suits and go to town
Your friendly Pub match logi
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Poison Diego
Vengeance Unbound
RUST415
646
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Posted - 2017.08.28 00:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Derpty Derp wrote:I was just thinking the ability to sell fits would be useless, once people just start sharing them freely...
So then I thought, what if people could copyright their fits... If you're the first person to apply to copyright a specific fit you pay a daily fee of isk to CCP, while other people wanting to use that fit incur a charge per battle each time they use the fit, that money then goes to the copyright holder.
Of course, this would have been silly as hell, but it would have stopped people spamming proto fits in pubs, since the charge for a decent high up fit would no doubt have been aimed at people making their money in PC.
Also, it would **** me off something terrible as I generally just trial and errored all of my fits... I did not enjoy sitting on the menu trying to eek out that extra little bit of performance.
There was no making money in PC... unless u did it right 
SEE YOU ON PC
just figured I must now learn how to fly on m&k
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