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DUST Fiend 18679	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:52:00 - [61] - Quote I think all most people care to remember about **** and the * is that they hunted down and exterminated millions of people. The rest is just dressing on the ** salad. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3844	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:11:00 - [62] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I think all most people care to remember out **** and the * is that they hunted down and exterminated millions of people. The rest is just dressing on the ** salad. Yeah, that's basically my TL;DR argument. But as I stressed once, nobody has an immaculate dress. Every colony power plus the United States of America and USSR have their big share of guilt, and I'm not talking about events that happened way too back in history. The sooner we recognize that the sooner we'll move on, hopefully, in a better world. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
DUST Fiend 18679	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:12:00 - [63] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I think all most people care to remember out **** and the * is that they hunted down and exterminated millions of people. The rest is just dressing on the salad. Yeah, that's basically my TL;DR argument. But as I stressed once, nobody has an immaculate dress. Every colony power plus the United States of America and USSR have their big share of guilt, and I'm not talking about events that happened way too back in history. The sooner we recognize that the sooner we'll move on, hopefully, in a better world. Oh I don't hold the US on any kind of pedestal, I'm ***** ashamed of my country these days. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2944	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:20:00 - [64] - Quote I'll skip the endless reasons why, and summarize my overall points. - We are taught an inaccurate and one sided version of History - A.H. Did his best to avoid the war, including offering peace to England after conquering France. Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
DUST Fiend 18679	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:46:00 - [65] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: - We are taught an inaccurate and one sided version of History But did they or did they not kill about 20 million civilians and PoWs? Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire. AV Incubus Specialist, Ex Prometheus
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3844	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:56:00 - [66] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: - A.H. Did his best to avoid the war, including offering peace to England after conquering France. This is the only point up for debate for me, since the other one I'm pretty confident anyone would agree. The peace offer was a really shady peace offer. I might repeat myself, interpretation is key here. I say it was just because he wanted to keep Britain "calm" because he cannot fight a three fronts war alone (since Italy already warned him that in case of any war italians wouldn't have been able to assist until at least 1945). take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2944	Posted - 2016.09.28 19:31:00 - [67] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: - A.H. Did his best to avoid the war, including offering peace to England after conquering France. This is the only point up for debate for me, since the other one I'm pretty confident anyone would agree. The peace offer was a really shady peace offer. I might repeat myself, interpretation is key here. I say it was just because he wanted to keep Britain "calm" because he cannot fight a three fronts war alone (since Italy already warned him that in case of any war italians wouldn't have been able to assist until at least 1945). This was H's response to France and Britain's declaration of War on Germany. Audio transcript of A.H. speaking very specifically about why any there should not be a war. He specifically details Germany's views and relations with every single country on Germany's borders, lists concessions Germany has made to avoid war, and further concessions he is willing to make to keep the peace. When France and England reject the offer and commit to war, H offers this response. After the fall of france, H offers this final appear to England, as a last attempt to finally stop the war. Note that he also mentions that the Luftwaffe was specifically ordered not to attack civilian targets or cities in the Poland and France campaigns. It is only when England decides to target German cities, that Germany reciprocates. Not to put words in your mouth, but if you listen to these speeches, I suspect your rebuttal might be along the lines of "he was just lying"... Well if that's what you think, please tell me what possible reason he would have to lie, in such specific detail about wanting peace, at a time when you are winning, and look all but unstoppable in Europe? What possible advantage would that offer? If you're curious, here is also the explanation of why it was necesssary to go to war with America. And soviet union. Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3845	Posted - 2016.09.28 20:38:00 - [68] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Well if that's what you think, please tell me what possible reason he would have to lie, in such specific detail about wanting peace, at a time when you are winning, and look all but unstoppable in Europe? If he was truly a warmongering monster out to conquer the world, would he not then want to appear as strong as possible to the German people? These speeches would be very counter-productive, if the official narrative were correct. What possible advantage would that offer? I haven't seen the videos yet, I'll do it later. But I'd just answer this for now. He's not necessarly lying, but certainly a peace offer when you are winning is the best time for you to make a peace offer. And A.H. knew it, he's not a statist for nothing after all. I never said he would have conquered the world, just the "vital space", just like Italy wanted to "take back control" (Brexit joke) of the "terre irredenti" (basically part of nowadays Croatia, part of Slovenia, part of Serbia and part of France) and just like Spain with Gibraltar. But The problem is right here. After WWI Germany was basically turned into a giant economic swamp. Everyone tried to deal with the WWI problematic Germany (and Austria-Hungary) in the same way they treated Napoleon. Making sure that a "second world war" never happens. Now, I clearly see the reason why the future Allied forces were so upset when Germany started to look much like what today might be considered a rogue state. From the remilitarization of the Rhineland to Austria happenings. And reading the Mein Kampf doesn't help to convey the pacific image of A.H. for sure. On a side note. Germany was not unstoppable. A.H. knew it. Mussolini knew it. In fact, Italy "enter" the war when France was basically already defeated. Want to know why we didn't join at the same time? Because Mussolini was sure A.H. was going to lose. Like, badly. You already know you're going to lose when 3/4 of the world may potentially declare war on you, and just Britain counted as half. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2944	Posted - 2016.09.28 21:08:00 - [69] - Quote Yes. Clearly they weren't unstoppable, although in 1940 they certainly appeared so. My only point is I believe their only foreign ambition was to reverse the versailles treaty, get back German territory stripped away from WW1, such as Danzig (which I might add, there were numerous peaceful offers made by Germany before the bromberg massacre to gain this land back peacefully) . They even offered to allow Danzig to pass it's own referendum on whether they wanted to Join Poland, Germany, or remain a "free city"... After Danzig was regained, Germany was completely satisfied and wanted nothing more than to buildup their own country in peace. That's why the numerous appeals to France and Britain to call the whole thing off Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13627	Posted - 2016.09.28 21:53:00 - [70] - Quote Today I had a history lesson... on the forums of a dead video game. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy

LOL KILLZ LulKlz 1166	Posted - 2016.09.28 23:25:00 - [71] - Quote IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. Dustkillz and chill
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.28 23:57:00 - [72] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: My only point is I believe their only foreign ambition was to reverse the versailles treaty, get back German territory stripped away from WW1, such as Danzig ... After Danzig was regained, Germany was completely satisfied and wanted nothing more than to buildup their own country in peace. That's why the numerous appeals to France and Britain to call the whole thing off Well, yes. That was the whole point of Na.zism, Fascism, Fracoism etc. All of these countries were essentially "unhappy" of how WWI reduced them, reason for the rise of the nationalistic far right all over Europe. This, from a strictly political point of view, makes sense. But from the ethical point of view it would be a very different discussion. Reason why nowadays there's a clear cut distinction between centre-right, right and far right much like the differentiation between centre-left, left and far left (to be clear, in Europe centre-left would be Bernie Sanders, left is pure Socialism and far left is Communism) take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:03:00 - [73] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2944	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:14:00 - [74] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? You should disagree with both. They're both equally flawed and designed to keep your population in perpetual stalemate. Both parties fail an making any real progress, yet they always have the excuse of blaming the 'other party'... It's a sick joke and leads me back to my original point: Democracy is a sham Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:19:00 - [75] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? You should disagree with both. They're both equally flawed and designed to keep your population in perpetual stalemate. Both parties fail an making any real progress, yet they always have the excuse of joining the 'other party'... It's a sick joke and leads me back to my original point: Democracy is a sham I believe there's a third candidate, the "what is Aleppo" guy. Now that would be a protest vote. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Forever ETC Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 1766	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:20:00 - [76] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? Mainly due to how the system works and the fact it has been this way for hundreds of years, for example the federalist and the anti-federalist. AmarrFTW "The Hero got his feelings hurt for 9 hp... " Not For Sale- Sanders 2016
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:37:00 - [77] - Quote Forever ETC wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? Mainly due to how the system works and the fact it has been this way for hundreds of years, for example the federalist and the anti-federalist. But isn't it too restrictive? Only one man/woman can be president and, considering the importance, the choice shouldn't be the lesser evil, especially in a presidential republic. But, yeah.. "who am I to judge" I guess. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Talos Vagheitan Ancient Exiles. 2944	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:59:00 - [78] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Forever ETC wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? Mainly due to how the system works and the fact it has been this way for hundreds of years, for example the federalist and the anti-federalist. But isn't it too restrictive? Only one man/woman can be president and, considering the importance, the choice shouldn't be the lesser evil, especially in a presidential republic. But, yeah.. "who am I to judge" I guess. Hear me out http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0F-U1vw31k Join the DUST STEAM GROUP
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13226	Posted - 2016.09.29 02:49:00 - [79] - Quote Let's be clear: Trump is not even close to A.H. the historical parallels are not there. One was an excellent public speaker. One is a jerkass who tries to take my style of often asinine behavior and put it forward as virtuous and on the right. Trump doesn't have any sort of perceivable class. He's rich, sure, but he's been bankrupt how many times? Bluntly I have my issues with hilary, but those are for another time. Trump is at his core the same as Mitt Romney without the "What, mingle with the commoner poors?" and the magic underwear. He's a vulture capitalist who takes existing businesses and dismantles them for profit before dispossessing the workers in the company. Yeah, this is EXACTLY the kinda guy who we want as prez. I don't believe for an instant that either one of them wouldn't further dismantle the middle and working class further to make a buck while expecting said people to thank and praise them for saving the nation. Career politicians are liars. This guy's pretty much wearing his intent on his sleeve. he's in it for the attention, the profit and the ego stroking. Even if he loses, his business benefits from recognition, and he gains more avenues to wealth. I trust hilary to be fulla crap, and telling half the story about what's going on vs. the fantasy spun by her spin doctors and detractors. I do not, and cannot trust Trump to have anyone's personal, societal or economic well-being as a primary interest beyond how it affects his bottom line. He's not the lesser of two evils, he's not evil. he's an A*hole who is proving the US to be as stupid as people in other nations claim we are. This election isn't a choice between two evils, it's an IQ test to see how much bullsht we're willing to be spoon-fed and by whom. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13631	Posted - 2016.09.29 03:14:00 - [80] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? You should disagree with both. They're both equally flawed and designed to keep your population in perpetual stalemate. Both parties fail an making any real progress, yet they always have the excuse of joining the 'other party'... It's a sick joke and leads me back to my original point: Democracy is a sham I believe there's a third candidate, the "what is Aleppo" guy. Now that would be a protest vote. The "what is Aleppo" guy you're referring to is Gary Johnson from the Libertarian Party. But there is also a fourth candidate running for president. Her name is Dr. Jill Stein and she's from the Green Party. Both of them are third party candidates that you can vote for if you don't like the two primary options. There is technically no law in the United States that stops you from voting for a third party candidate. And anyone can be on the ballot as long as they meet the requirements set by the states. How to get on the ballot can be explained in the link below. https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates According to Jill Stein's website, she has ballot access across 48 states with 3 of them for Write-In status. http://www.jill2016.com/ballot_access Gary Johnson seems to have 100% ballot access which means you will see his name on the ballot in every state. https://ballotpedia.org/Gary_Johnson_presidential_campaign,_2016#Ballot_access So there you go. No one HAS to vote for either the Giant Douche or the Turd Sandwich. You can always go for one of the OTHER two. Just keep in mind that both of the third party candidates do have their flaws but they can't possibly be worse than what you see happening in the popularity contest right now. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13229	Posted - 2016.09.29 03:32:00 - [81] - Quote Quote: but they can't possibly be worse than what you see happening in the popularity contest right now. No, there is no such thing as a situation so bad that it could not possibly get worse. Let's not lie to ourselves like that. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 10:43:00 - [82] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: The "what is Aleppo" guy you're referring to is Gary Johnson from the Libertarian Party. But there is also a fourth candidate running for president. Her name is Dr. Jill Stein and she's from the Green Party. Both of them are third party candidates that you can vote for if you don't like the two primary options. There is technically no law in the United States that stops you from voting for a third party candidate. And anyone can be on the ballot as long as they meet the requirements set by the states. Well, the Green Party, worldwide, is not a government party, is more like an opposition party, and to be honest is the kind of opposition you'd like to have in a parliament. Still, four candidates are too few, and by the way, according to the media is almost like they're only two. Even four candidates are too few to be honest, but at least if they gave them the proper coverage you would have a better choice. Hell, even the "undemocratic, bureaucracy monster" (N. Farage) gave the opportunity to all five candidates to debate. video of people speaking in English with fancy accents take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7878	Posted - 2016.09.29 13:58:00 - [83] - Quote I heard a suggestion the other day on the Radio that voting Trump was the ultimate protest vote. There are some who want to metaphorically burn Washington. They want the worst possible candidate to become president and wreck everything to punish the political elites that have been messing everything up for the common man. I have to admit that I can see the appeal for that. ...and if I did not live on this planet I would probably enjoy watching what would happen if Trump won. I got to remind myself though: "This is reality, not reality TV!" Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Operative 1174 Uuali True Companion Planetary Requisitions 1726	Posted - 2016.09.29 14:52:00 - [84] - Quote I'll come out of hiding to respond to this. What America needs after eight years of Obama is a nice big fat, dry dldo shoved up the collective ss of this diseased version of so-called liberal progressivism and its weapons of political correctness, social justice war and micro-aggression that has taken hold of this country. Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump is that d*ldo. He may not be the hero we want, but he is the tool we need. I'll take that over a pandering witch with a dirty cauldron any day. CCP logic GÇô NOVA isn't an actual product. It is only a project. We might not do it at all.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 15:04:00 - [85] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I heard a suggestion the other day on the Radio that voting Trump was the ultimate protest vote. There are some who want to metaphorically burn Washington. They want the worst possible candidate to become president and wreck everything to punish the political elites that have been messing everything up for the common man. But then these people are not punishing the "elite" really, but themselves. 1% of Americans will still be 1%, no less no more. Ok, I'll try to be concise: The protest vote is something useful if there's a certain quorum on elections. In that case you'll protest by voting the party that is much less likely to win. But there need to be a quorum and for sure it doesn't mean you'll vote for Democrats if you're Republican or vice versa. If there's no quorum you're just not being represented, you're just voting for someone who will not be able to run your country for years. I don't want to lecture anyone on anything really, even because as I already said I could very well say the same thing (which in many aspects is even worse) of my country. Still, if people are really so fed up of the elites, why don't they just at least try to understand why they are in that condition. It's useless to blame the "elite" when nobody knows exactly what the elite is. In my understanding, things started messing up, worldwide, with the George W. Bush government: with the taxes cut and the increase of federal spending on (in my opinion) useless stuff the national debt quickly rose and left the country in deficit. This happened at the worst time ever, and after a series (much longer of what anyone would imagine) of chain reactions, we all had a worldwide economic crisis. I am voluntarily oversimplifying things here since hundreds of pages wouldn't be enough to determine the causes of the worldwide recession. But in a few words: the "Elite" was just trying to defend their interests which, incidentally, was people's interests. You can't really blame banks for that: they lend money in order to pay you because they lost money in the first place. And they actually lost your money because of the crisis, reason why they had to lend other money from other international banks, which, of course, charged a higher interest rate because they also was running out of money. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 15:16:00 - [86] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: I'll come out of hiding to respond to this. What America needs after eight years of Obama is a nice big fat, dry dldo shoved up the collective ss of this diseased version of so-called liberal progressivism and its weapons of political correctness, social justice war and micro-aggression that has taken hold of this country. Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump is that d*ldo. He may not be the hero we want, but he is the tool we need. I'll take that over a pandering witch with a dirty cauldron any day. Finally! A Trump supporter! Why do you think that Trump is what America needs? Why is Social Justice that bad if everyone's happy? I think Obama has been quite a good president, what was wrong with him? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7881	Posted - 2016.09.29 18:44:00 - [87] - Quote If the Republicans had nominated Condoleezza Rice to run she could have blown Clinton out of the water. She would have picked up a good part of the Democrat vote on top of her Republican base. Instead we have large numbers of Republicans debating whether they can hold their nose and vote for Hillery. If the Trump vote is a protest vote it has already been effective. Trump getting nominated has hit the Republican party like a hydrogen bomb. The candidates they run in the next election will probably be very different from the lineup that ran against Trump. Hopefully they get the point that people are looking for someone who isn't just reading from the 1970's Republican PlayBook. It would be sad... although not particularly surprising... if they look at Trump's success and think they need to run racist misogynistic assholes. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
byte modal 1031	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:21:00 - [88] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: If the Republicans had nominated Condoleezza Rice to run she could have blown Clinton out of the water. She would have picked up a good part of the Democrat vote on top of her Republican base. Instead we have large numbers of Republicans debating whether they can hold their nose and vote for Hillery. If the Trump vote is a protest vote it has already been effective. Trump getting nominated has hit the Republican party like a hydrogen bomb. The candidates they run in the next election will probably be very different from the lineup that ran against Trump. Hopefully they get the point that people are looking for someone who isn't just reading from the 1970's Republican PlayBook. It would be sad... although not particularly surprising... if they look at Trump's success and think they need to run racist misogynistic assholes. Iderno. I thought the same after Palin. Instead, they seem to have just double-down. =/ kitten bacon taco (nom)
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 14209	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:39:00 - [89] - Quote Skimming over this thread and I am reminded of an old comic or two. My advice to you, playa.
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:40:00 - [90] - Quote byte modal wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: If the Republicans had nominated Condoleezza Rice to run she could have blown Clinton out of the water. She would have picked up a good part of the Democrat vote on top of her Republican base. Instead we have large numbers of Republicans debating whether they can hold their nose and vote for Hillery. If the Trump vote is a protest vote it has already been effective. Trump getting nominated has hit the Republican party like a hydrogen bomb. The candidates they run in the next election will probably be very different from the lineup that ran against Trump. Hopefully they get the point that people are looking for someone who isn't just reading from the 1970's Republican PlayBook. It would be sad... although not particularly surprising... if they look at Trump's success and think they need to run racist misogynistic assholes. Iderno. I thought the same after Palin. Instead, they seem to have just double-down. =/ Well I guess it's the same situation when everyone complains about Activision and Ubisoft for making bazillions of poorly made DLCs and putting out half-made games or copy/paste games. But then everyone buy the new Call of Duty. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514



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"The Hero got his feelings hurt for 9 hp... "

Not For Sale- Sanders 2016