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xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3828	Posted - 2016.09.27 14:49:00 - [1] - Quote So, I've seen the whole Clinton / Trump debate this morning (it was late night/early morning ETZ I guess) and I had confirmations about what I was already thinking. I'm italian and I know I shouldn't really have any say on this topic since very similar movements and ideological "values" are very present in Italy and all over Europe, but, and please be brutally honest, what makes Trump so attractive? It's not a provocative question, I seriously want to know why Trump supporters are supporting him. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3828	Posted - 2016.09.27 15:26:00 - [2] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: So, I've seen the whole Clinton / Trump debate this morning (it was late night/early morning ETZ I guess) and I had confirmations about what I was already thinking. I'm italian and I know I shouldn't really have any say on this topic since very similar movements and ideological "values" are very present in Italy and all over Europe, but, and please be brutally honest, what makes Trump so attractive? It's not a provocative question, I seriously want to know why Trump supporters are supporting him. Most people support one of these candidates simply because they hate the other more. Both are garbage, so pick your poison. I guess you could say Trump probably means a lot of what he says, which could be construed as sincerity in a way, rather than blabbering meaningless talking points to your voter base. Democracy has failed. This guy said it best, although we're all conditioned from birth to hate him and ignore everything he said... turns out he was right after all... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0F-U1vw31k Alexis de Tocqueville would be a much better example than the guy imo . This would be a much wider topic, anyway. So, basically, it is Not voting Trump against Not voting Clinton? I thought that the election of a candidate was also a democratic process, am I wrong? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3828	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:00:00 - [3] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Democracy is a hoax. Were really ruled by the handful of elites with unlimited wealth while the people get poorer poorer and more divided and the endless wars rage on. Just like Orwell prophecised. Edit: These puppets placed on the stage to debate each other mean nothing. Whoever wins, the debt will increase, the wars will continue, and it will be the same thing 4 years after this I'd consider Orwell's works more like a warning than a prophecy, much closer to Kafka than a political essay. Interesting tho because I find what you say quite accurate, but probably not for the same reasons. We are ruled by elites, well, yes, I believe that's actually the point of representative democracy, while the "unlimited wealth elites" part is a direct consequence of capitalism (but still, don't get me wrong, I'm not a fervent marxist), capitalism that is way too stressed in American society as far as I can tell, I'd call it a form of "extreme" capitalism that is indeed not good at all. The endless war part, I would also agree on that, but again, for different reasons. A good part of American GDP is directly linked to war economy and (in my opinion absurd) gun legislations, while another good part of it is inderectly linked. It's much more complicated than "pure evil", but let's just say that in my opinion some countries need war for their economy to be stable and growing, and no, that's not a good way (like, at all) to induce economic growth if you ask me. The debt will increase, well, of course it will. If it didn't the country you're in woldn't be growing. Our economy, the "sane" part of it at least, is based on debt. It's really the cardinal point of all economic theories. But, again, just take my words for it, since it would be overly complicated to explain such a wide topic in a forum post. Just wanted to clarify my position Still my question was another: I was asking why would people agree on some of the most extreme Trump positions? Wall, muslims, gun control, NATO and so on. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3828	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:11:00 - [4] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I have to admit to having thoughts of Silvio Berlusconi when watching the US election, although Trump is probably quite a bit worse. I think the current situation in the US is a result of political spin. The masses have come to recognize that the scripted way politicians talk is often used to obscure the truth. Since it takes too much work for under educated people to sort out what the politicians are hiding they have simply stopped believing anything the politicians say. Therefore, because Hillary Clinton is a long time politician and talks in a careful and rehearsed fashion a large portion of the US population does not believe her, even when what she says is proven to be true. Donald Trump on the other hand does not sound anything like a politician, so people think he is honest even when the stuff he spouts off is proven again and again to be false, lies, or complete fantasies. The distrust of politicians was exacerbated by the housing crisis and the recession which hit the White American middle class really hard. Watching their government bailing out the Banks that took their houses was a bitter pill to swallow, and made them hate the establishment in both political parties. This added to the popularity of both Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders (depending on whether you leaned left or right). Add to that a large segment of White Americans who used to feel like they are inherently better than everyone else because they are "American" and "America is great!" having to confront racial guilt as the ongoing civil rights movement continues to point out the inequities and injustices in American society. Lets face it, it just feels a whole lot better to think you are better than everyone else, than it does to feel guilty. It should not be surprising that a segment of society is sliding back into racism in order to feel better about themselves. The slogan "Make America Great Again!" actually translates into "Make White Americans fell Great Again!". Good insight, thank you. I thought that such things would have never existed in America, since you're basically all immigrants (and here I'm purposefully provocative). See, you're not the one seeing the parallel between Berlusconi and Trump. As an italian, I can say they have much more in common than what you may think.And would also agree that it may be a bit more dangerous since being the Prime minister of Italyis not as influential and "militaristic" dangerous as being the President of the USA. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3828	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:17:00 - [5] - Quote byte modal wrote: I am not a Trump supporter, but I live in the SE region of the U.S. with maybe 98% of family, friends, and coworkers being staunch Republican. My *opinion* is painted by the history of my own past political views, experience, and in witness to the opinions of those around me. It's just an opinion. From my observation, Trump is perceived as a political outsider that tells it like it is---their words. It is something that many can project their frustrations and biases onto and see reflections of a no-holds-barred aggressiveness that they would like to be part of. He speaks to the emotional frustration of a specific class and then targets "others" as the cause. I don't mean specifically race, nationality, or gender---his comments can be vague, but the individual will hear justification in fears that that individual may have already thought of; but when it is race, nationality, or gender, it becomes a focal point. Everyone loves a good witch hunt. To put it simply: he validates. My guess is a lot of it also has to do with two simple facts: 1) He is our guy. In that sense, it's a football game. I love my team and hate yours. But that's what politics seem to be coming to regardless of sides. 2) His opponent is Hillary Clinton. She has her own history and baggage to carry. I typically lean Democratic but she gets on my nerves. I can imagine how easy it is for those already on the other side of the fence to hate her, when emotion is a strong impulse. Any word from her mouth also validates ;) Iderno, man. Scares the sh!t out of me, TBQH. But, basically, that's just witch hunting, isn't it? Are really mexicans America's problem? Is building a wall the great solution that nobody ever thought before? On the second part, I may agree since just a few years ago I would have never voted left in Italy. I would define myself as a "right-wing" man, but still. especially in the last 2-3 years had to agree with some of the left wing. It's just common sense if you ask me. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:28:00 - [6] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: I'd consider Orwell's works more like a warning than a prophecy, much closer to Kafka than a political essay. Originally meant as a warning... quickly proving to be prophecy. True that, but if you ask me, what people usually don't get is that orwellian concepts sometimes fits even better in the "anti-enstablishment", "anti-immigrant", anti-whatever positions. We have a great example here in Italy too with Movimento 5 Stelle right now. But don't want to talk about anti-enstablishment becoming sometimes even worse than the previous-enstablishment. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:34:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Why did **** rise to power? Had the DNC not ** all over Bernie this would already be over, and if third party candidates weren't systematically silenced then at the very least there might be more to discuss. I hate my country more and more with each passing day. A. H. rose to power by blaming everything to the Juwes and the "inferior races", absolutely true. When I first saw Bernie Sanders I thought he was going to win by a long shot against Clinton and then eventually win the presidential elections. But I guess this is not what "people" wanted. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 16:50:00 - [8] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Between 1933 - 1936 Germany unified their country, beat the depression, eliminated unemployment/poverty, developed world class infrastructure including the still famous Autobahns, passed animal rights laws, nearly eliminated tobacco from their country and went from starvation and ruin to the best economy in Europe. Contrary to what we're taught in school/History channel, this was before significant military buildup took place. The real reason for the war, was the bankers who own America/Britain didn't want their people to realize they could live like that. Germany had to be destroyed in order to keep this sham of Western democracy going. Hitlers peace offers to England and France after the Poland ordeal? Completely neglected by historians. The anti-german propaganda has been going strong ever since, so that no one would dare question how we got here today. History is a sham. While this is accurate... Same goes for Italy. You might not notice it if you ever visit Italy, but most of the infrastructures, the modern justice and the highest growth rate was exactly during the fascist period. It would also be interesting that the fascist Italy was all pro-immigrants from everywhere in the world. Black-italians, asian-italians back then didn't exist. They were just italians since they accepted to "be" italian. This is, of course, due to a strong leader (read dictator) being in charge of pretty much anything, but still the ethical point with Germany here is very different. A.D. pushed policies against a certain "race" first and then pretty much against "all other races", and that's "probably" what is very wrong among with pangermanistic views. Talos Vagheitan wrote: That's why they maneuvered Germany into war with Poland over Danzig ...this is not. If you read the Mein Kampf he clearly stated that the German people "needed the vital space" See, Germany's example is not the best, anyway. German people are absolutely capable to stand up on their feets and recover astonishingly after every defeat: think about WWII. They lost, Germany was basically a giant ruin, but still recovered that much that right now it is the leading country in Europe. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 17:06:00 - [9] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: They also kicked out their Rothschild owned central bank from the Weimar days, and created the Reichsbank, which allowed them to issue their own debt free currency, which is exactly how they elicited their debt. So don't tell me a country can't function without perpetually skyrocketing debt. That's beyond ridiculous. Other leaders who have tried to eliminate the private central banks? - Gadaffi - S. ******* - Assad - Ahmedinejad - Jong un. Anything in common with these people? At the time Germany basically refused to pay their debts and turned into semi-autarchy (just like Italy did). This was one of the things that worsened the great depression (worldwide), while it didn't touch Italy or Germany because of said autarchy. You can perpetually skyrocket debt, but you'll have an hard time finding more money if you reach a certain level since investors won't trust you and won't lend you money. At this point you'd want to print more money, but if you print too much currency, you risk a severe inflation that, needless to say, is not beneficial. Think about Argentina, Zimbabwe and Venezuela. The rest, unless there's empirical evidence I'm not aware of, is conspiracy theory in my opinion. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 17:08:00 - [10] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: I'd consider Orwell's works more like a warning than a prophecy, much closer to Kafka than a political essay. Originally meant as a warning... quickly proving to be prophecy. True that, but if you ask me, what people usually don't get is that orwellian concepts sometimes fits even better in the "anti-enstablishment", "anti-immigrant", anti-whatever positions. We have a great example here in Italy too with Movimento 5 Stelle right now. But don't want to talk about anti-enstablishment becoming sometimes even worse than the previous-enstablishment. To site a more current example of something not being taken as intended: Homer Simpson in "The Simpsons" was intended to be satire, but seems to have been taken as a role model instead. Ignorance seems to have become a desirable trait in American culture and education has become demonized. For example, in what other country would a politician be criticized for speaking more than one language? I believe no one in their sane mind would criticize a leader for being multilingual. People here usually criticize people not knowing at least one other language. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514

xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 17:13:00 - [11] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why did **** rise to power? Had the DNC not ** all over Bernie this would already be over, and if third party candidates weren't systematically silenced then at the very least there might be more to discuss. I hate my country more and more with each passing day. A. H. rose to power by blaming everything to the Juwes and the "inferior races", absolutely true. When I first saw Bernie Sanders I thought he was going to win by a long shot against Clinton and then eventually win the presidential elections. But I guess this is not what "people" wanted. At least that's what the History Channel tells people to believe No, ok, wait. I live in Europe, I have been in Germany for a while when there used to be quite a lot of people that remembered what was Naz.i Germany and how A.H. rose to power. I guess you'll have to believe me, but that's actually how things were. In a nutshell: they needed someone to blame, then blamed Jews banks and jews in general. Which was a slow process, it was something new for europeans since we have evidence that jews have been somehow blamed for pretty much anything in many different countries during many very different centuries. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3829	Posted - 2016.09.27 17:23:00 - [12] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Talos Vagheitan wrote: Between 1933 - 1936 Germany unified their country, beat the depression, eliminated unemployment/poverty, developed world class infrastructure including the still famous Autobahns, passed animal rights laws, nearly eliminated tobacco from their country and went from starvation and ruin to the best economy in Europe. Contrary to what we're taught in school/History channel, this was before significant military buildup took place. The real reason for the war, was the bankers who own America/Britain didn't want their people to realize they could live like that. Germany had to be destroyed in order to keep this sham of Western democracy going. Hitlers peace offers to England and France after the Poland ordeal? Completely neglected by historians. The anti-german propaganda has been going strong ever since, so that no one would dare question how we got here today. History is a sham. While this is accurate... Same goes for Italy. You might not notice it if you ever visit Italy, but most of the infrastructures, the modern justice and the highest growth rate was exactly during the fascist period. It would also be interesting that the fascist Italy was all pro-immigrants from everywhere in the world. Black-italians, asian-italians back then didn't exist. They were just italians since they accepted to "be" italian. This is, of course, due to a strong leader (read dictator) being in charge of pretty much anything, but still the ethical point with Germany here is very different. A.D. pushed policies against a certain "race" first and then pretty much against "all other races", and that's "probably" what is very wrong among with pangermanistic views. Talos Vagheitan wrote: That's why they maneuvered Germany into war with Poland over Danzig ...this is not. If you read the Mein Kampf he clearly stated that the German people "needed the vital space" See, Germany's example is not the best, anyway. German people are absolutely capable to stand up on their feets and recover astonishingly after every defeat: think about WWII. They lost, Germany was basically a giant ruin, but still recovered that much that right now it is the leading country in Europe. I own Mein Kampf and have read it carefully so don't lecture me on that book. There are a few sentences used in an abstract sense where the word 'Lebensraum' Is used... mostly discussing the historical needs for nations to conquer each other in the past. however there is absolutely no mention in the book which says "Germany needs Lebensraum and must therefore conquer the world and exterminate everybody " As the history channel/schools choose to interpret it. Furthermore, A.H. Was clearly every step of the way in his intentions in the beginning. He wanted Danzig back, and Danzig wanted to rejoin Germany. Polish officials instigated the Bromberg Massacre in Danzig (sure you've never heard of it) where ethnic Germans were hunted down. A.H. Had no choice but to intervene. Britain and Frances war declarations followed suit, but what's 'hushed' by most historians is that USSR also invaded Poland, with no response by the allies. If A.H's aims were so simple and cartoonish as "take over the world and kill everyone", then why was switzerland left alone? Spain? Sweden? If he was so racist why ally with Japan? Why speak so highly of the Arabs? Why give the black American athletes the best treatment of their lives in 1936 Olympics? (Jesse Owens own words). I'll tell you why. Because almost all history on this subject is twisted to the point where you'll believe this is a world in which the "Good guys" won We'll need another Topic on that , since we're going a lot OT, I'd continue there if you wish to further talk about this. Anyway, I can't tell about the American education system, but here at least we have a clear vision of what and why. Germany surely didn't want to take over the world back then and the "good guys" didn't won, but they didn't loose either. It's not totally black nor totally white. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3832	Posted - 2016.09.27 19:14:00 - [13] - Quote TooMany Names AlreadyTaken wrote: We've officially run out of topics to talk about about Dust 514. Trump=president=end of the world Is it? and if you think that, why? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3836	Posted - 2016.09.27 21:22:00 - [14] - Quote MEGA MAN7 wrote: Meanwhile... Topics on other Videogame community forums : http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/rfaerdohwzluzn0uqdgh.jpg Thats why I love this game and it's community ; You can even make quality disscossions on non game related topics! I laughed hard. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3836	Posted - 2016.09.27 21:45:00 - [15] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: It's pretty clear that the democrats control most mainstream media as well. Not to mention that all but 1 of the debate moderators are known Clinton supporters, so there's quite a bit of bias there. I wouldn't say they are "controlled" really, but there is bias to some extent. On the other side, I understand the bias, it's natural if you talk of a contradictory man like Trump, he is literally feeding the bias. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3836	Posted - 2016.09.27 21:55:00 - [16] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Freaking out over jobs is a frustrating thing considering right now, they're integral, but in the not so distant future, many of the basic jobs we do will be automated. If anything that's why I'm most terrified of Trump and his people, they entirely ignore facts and science unless they directly benefit them. If anyone is going to keep us from advancing technologically, it's that crowd. And that ******* terrifies me. On that topic, yesterday I somehow felt a certain degree of sarcasm when he was talking about global warming. But I'm sure a presidential candidate cannot be that close-minded. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3838	Posted - 2016.09.27 22:35:00 - [17] - Quote Joel II X wrote: As you may or may not know, I'd say most of the voting population is not very informed about politics. Everyone I have talked to about politics around me seems to have the wrong idea on what a president could actually do, and if they should actually be allowed to do it, and how they would go to around doing something. Most agree that politicians are liars, yet when the elections come around, they always seem to believe that when a candidate says he's going to do something, they will get around to it eventually. Whether it is creating jobs, legalizing *********, or creating a wall with another country's money. Now, to answer your question, as other people here said, this year, it is mostly whether you not vote for Clinton, or you don't vote for Trump. Hell, when Sanders was running and dropped out, the people that were going to vote for him wanted to not vote either, which meant less votes for the Democratic party. Whatever the outcome, I'm sure America is in for one helluva ride. I'm both excited and scared. That said, Congress makes all of this a joke because they pretty much hold all power, and barely anyone votes for midterm elections. I am not proficient in United states governance system to be honest, but I know that the president is both the chief of the armed forces and the responsible of foreign affairs.I also heard that he likes Putin. Now that scares me a lot as a European. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3840	Posted - 2016.09.28 00:36:00 - [18] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: I think Trump is the protest vote. A lot of people feel marginalised and think that society is moving too quickly. I think that if reform was more gradual, people would be more willing to accept it. People support Trump precisely because it's ferociously shoved down their throats why they shouldn't support him. Reasonable people are voting for Trump not because they necessarily support his policies, but they haven't had the time to properly consider the policies that they feel have suddenly crept up on them. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the overpowering liberal movement. So, basically you're telling me that Trump voters are mainly 6 years old that the more you tell them not to do something giving them valid reasons, the more they'll do? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3841	Posted - 2016.09.28 01:00:00 - [19] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: It's a knee-jerk reaction Followed closely by a long settling-in of evading facts and ignoring evidence. Amusingly, I love how the right craps all over the left for being too "feely" yet this entire election has had the right doing literally nothing but voting with their feels You know, that's kind of the point of my topic. There's basically no good reason. I asked since it's not just America, it's the whole world that is leaning too much on these populistic point of views. They all talk directly to people's anger and fears: Germany, AfD: against muslims and immigrants Italy, Lega Nord / Fratelli d'Italia: against muslims, immigrants, European Union, Euro, pro closed borders France, Front National: against muslims, immigrants, European Union, Euro, pro closed borders Netherlands, Partij voor de Vrijheid: against muslims, immigrants, European Union, Euro, pro closed borders Great Britain, UKIP / Britain First: against muslims, immigrants, European Union, Euro, pro closed borders Greece, +º-ü-à-â+« +æ-à+¦+« (Golden Dawn): against muslims, immigrants, European Union, Euro, pro closed borders And I can go on for almost any european state. Actually it might have been much easier to list the countries that are not dangerously swinging to the far, far right. And they are all there cheerleading for Trump. The problem here is not the existance of said parties, some have been there for decades, it's the spectacular rise in consensus they had over the last three-four years. As I already said, I'd define myself as a right-wing voter, but believe me, the far right, the one I know, is something that doesn't exist (you lucky) in America (as much as there's no far left, again luckly for you). take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3841	Posted - 2016.09.28 01:03:00 - [20] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I feel like this election cycle is very evident of how poorly educated we have become as a nation. World. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514

xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3843	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:33:00 - [21] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: . As I already said, everything you say is pretty accurate but our interpretation of the shady part of history is different. I may bring into discussion the letters exchange that Mussolini had with Churchill in order to "save" Italy from the imminent disaster, I might even tell you that he never liked A.H. defining him as a " stupida, piccola scimmia " in early fascism. But would just this, change the overall opinions on the "ventennio"? Well, no. Opposition was truly suppressed or exiled, as much as it is true that Italy (and Germany) had a spectacular rise in all the main "state health" indexes: occupation, wealth, GDP, military power and so on. Italian fascism, as already stated, was all pro-immiogration and the widespread consensus (at least in Italy) is that Mussolini's real fault step (if you really don't want to count in political repression of oppositions) happened almost two decades after his first day of government with the approval of italian "racial laws" and the subsequent "germanization" of Italy. Knowing this, does it make any difference? Not really. You may simply re-evaluate Mussolini's early figure, and come to the conclusion that it was neither a black period but for sure it wasn't a white period. Winners write the history and that's true. Still, the real somehow unbiased history is always there, you might not learn the same history at school, but you can get an idea of how things went just by doing researches. On the Anschluss referendum, it was much like presidential elections in Russia: just give the people a fake referendum, even if you already know who will win. See, Austria was already occupied (12 March 1938) before the referendum (10 April 1938). And before that, there was a tentative coup (assassination of the filo-italian prime minister Dollfuss), the fact that Italy was no longer guaranteeing help to Austria in case of invasion, and years of turmoil where Germany kept asking things basically saying do this or I'll invade you (1936, 12 February 1938 and finally 12 March 1938). It was pretty clear who would have won the referendum in an occupied country with zero military power. It was an invasion, masked by a referendum. On the japanese argument: Japan's cooperation in the fight against the Soviet Union would be welcomed if the Japanese advance to the south should run into difficulty because of supply and equipment. (GÇëA. H., 2 June 1941) Japan, at the time wanted either to expand to the north or to expand to the "natural" Japanese sphere of influence on the pacific islands and south-east Asia. I guess A.H. was just hoping for a "go north" strategy by Japan that would have closed USSR in a bilateral war that would have probably never won. As we know, this never happened, Operation Barbarossa was the usual, silly attempt to invade Russia from a european country. It is , in fact, a common opinion between historians that if A.H. never attempted to invade Russia we would have seen a much different history. Same goes if Japan ever decided to "go north". But this never happened, so it will just be speculations. On the racial point, japanese were (I'm probably mistranslating here) "Honorary Arian" (I like to translate it this way because, well, someone here I'm sure will get it). They were fairly "high" in the phantomatic "Racial superiority chart" according to A.H. because they have never been "mixed" with other races. That's really it. It's like they were "sopportable". For the other points, well, yes, I agree. People generally prefer to demonize Na.zi Germany much more than Britain, Italy, France and USA. But I want to stress that this would never condone what all of these country did back then, and it should not condone anything at all. The fact that "all of the other countries did the same or worse" does not mean that it was right to do so. Also, again I might repeat myself, it's fairly common knoledge here in Italy, don't know there, that 1) Iraq never had any kind of super secret weapon 2) Americans needed a casus belli to start the war in Vietnam and simply made up the second attack (while the first was very real) Don't know anything about the USS Liberty, I'll try to get some informations about that. To your last question: it's pretty evident. No, I'm not. I want to stress that everyone has his fair share of guilt and I also want to stress that even knowing this, it's not even right to completely shift from bad to good and from good to bad. One last thing: disgusting acts against human rights are disgusting acts against human right. Whoever enslaved and killed other people because of ethnicity ( and I'm also pretty sure that talking about ethnicity is even pointless since even if there were different ethnicities, they all mixed up very long time ago), nationality or whetever other reason is disgusting. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3843	Posted - 2016.09.28 17:49:00 - [22] - Quote And by the way, the fact that I know these things from high school, and you say that they "don't tell you these things" probably means that (at least for what concern History) the American education system might not be good. And from here I'd like to reconnect to Trump: I've read that the majority of his voters are poorly educated Americans. Do you see a real correlation or it is just a spurious correlation? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3844	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:11:00 - [23] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: I think all most people care to remember out **** and the * is that they hunted down and exterminated millions of people. The rest is just dressing on the ** salad. Yeah, that's basically my TL;DR argument. But as I stressed once, nobody has an immaculate dress. Every colony power plus the United States of America and USSR have their big share of guilt, and I'm not talking about events that happened way too back in history. The sooner we recognize that the sooner we'll move on, hopefully, in a better world. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3844	Posted - 2016.09.28 18:56:00 - [24] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: - A.H. Did his best to avoid the war, including offering peace to England after conquering France. This is the only point up for debate for me, since the other one I'm pretty confident anyone would agree. The peace offer was a really shady peace offer. I might repeat myself, interpretation is key here. I say it was just because he wanted to keep Britain "calm" because he cannot fight a three fronts war alone (since Italy already warned him that in case of any war italians wouldn't have been able to assist until at least 1945). take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3845	Posted - 2016.09.28 20:38:00 - [25] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: Well if that's what you think, please tell me what possible reason he would have to lie, in such specific detail about wanting peace, at a time when you are winning, and look all but unstoppable in Europe? If he was truly a warmongering monster out to conquer the world, would he not then want to appear as strong as possible to the German people? These speeches would be very counter-productive, if the official narrative were correct. What possible advantage would that offer? I haven't seen the videos yet, I'll do it later. But I'd just answer this for now. He's not necessarly lying, but certainly a peace offer when you are winning is the best time for you to make a peace offer. And A.H. knew it, he's not a statist for nothing after all. I never said he would have conquered the world, just the "vital space", just like Italy wanted to "take back control" (Brexit joke) of the "terre irredenti" (basically part of nowadays Croatia, part of Slovenia, part of Serbia and part of France) and just like Spain with Gibraltar. But The problem is right here. After WWI Germany was basically turned into a giant economic swamp. Everyone tried to deal with the WWI problematic Germany (and Austria-Hungary) in the same way they treated Napoleon. Making sure that a "second world war" never happens. Now, I clearly see the reason why the future Allied forces were so upset when Germany started to look much like what today might be considered a rogue state. From the remilitarization of the Rhineland to Austria happenings. And reading the Mein Kampf doesn't help to convey the pacific image of A.H. for sure. On a side note. Germany was not unstoppable. A.H. knew it. Mussolini knew it. In fact, Italy "enter" the war when France was basically already defeated. Want to know why we didn't join at the same time? Because Mussolini was sure A.H. was going to lose. Like, badly. You already know you're going to lose when 3/4 of the world may potentially declare war on you, and just Britain counted as half. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.28 23:57:00 - [26] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: My only point is I believe their only foreign ambition was to reverse the versailles treaty, get back German territory stripped away from WW1, such as Danzig ... After Danzig was regained, Germany was completely satisfied and wanted nothing more than to buildup their own country in peace. That's why the numerous appeals to France and Britain to call the whole thing off Well, yes. That was the whole point of Na.zism, Fascism, Fracoism etc. All of these countries were essentially "unhappy" of how WWI reduced them, reason for the rise of the nationalistic far right all over Europe. This, from a strictly political point of view, makes sense. But from the ethical point of view it would be a very different discussion. Reason why nowadays there's a clear cut distinction between centre-right, right and far right much like the differentiation between centre-left, left and far left (to be clear, in Europe centre-left would be Bernie Sanders, left is pure Socialism and far left is Communism) take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:03:00 - [27] - Quote LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:19:00 - [28] - Quote Talos Vagheitan wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? You should disagree with both. They're both equally flawed and designed to keep your population in perpetual stalemate. Both parties fail an making any real progress, yet they always have the excuse of joining the 'other party'... It's a sick joke and leads me back to my original point: Democracy is a sham I believe there's a third candidate, the "what is Aleppo" guy. Now that would be a protest vote. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 00:37:00 - [29] - Quote Forever ETC wrote: xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: LOL KILLZ wrote: IMO I don't understand why we don't include other party candidates into the conversation. The generations that came before us almost feel obligated to abide by the status quo. You know, I always wondered why does the USA have only two major parties. What if you disagree with both? Mainly due to how the system works and the fact it has been this way for hundreds of years, for example the federalist and the anti-federalist. But isn't it too restrictive? Only one man/woman can be president and, considering the importance, the choice shouldn't be the lesser evil, especially in a presidential republic. But, yeah.. "who am I to judge" I guess. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 10:43:00 - [30] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: The "what is Aleppo" guy you're referring to is Gary Johnson from the Libertarian Party. But there is also a fourth candidate running for president. Her name is Dr. Jill Stein and she's from the Green Party. Both of them are third party candidates that you can vote for if you don't like the two primary options. There is technically no law in the United States that stops you from voting for a third party candidate. And anyone can be on the ballot as long as they meet the requirements set by the states. Well, the Green Party, worldwide, is not a government party, is more like an opposition party, and to be honest is the kind of opposition you'd like to have in a parliament. Still, four candidates are too few, and by the way, according to the media is almost like they're only two. Even four candidates are too few to be honest, but at least if they gave them the proper coverage you would have a better choice. Hell, even the "undemocratic, bureaucracy monster" (N. Farage) gave the opportunity to all five candidates to debate. video of people speaking in English with fancy accents take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514

xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 15:04:00 - [31] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: I heard a suggestion the other day on the Radio that voting Trump was the ultimate protest vote. There are some who want to metaphorically burn Washington. They want the worst possible candidate to become president and wreck everything to punish the political elites that have been messing everything up for the common man. But then these people are not punishing the "elite" really, but themselves. 1% of Americans will still be 1%, no less no more. Ok, I'll try to be concise: The protest vote is something useful if there's a certain quorum on elections. In that case you'll protest by voting the party that is much less likely to win. But there need to be a quorum and for sure it doesn't mean you'll vote for Democrats if you're Republican or vice versa. If there's no quorum you're just not being represented, you're just voting for someone who will not be able to run your country for years. I don't want to lecture anyone on anything really, even because as I already said I could very well say the same thing (which in many aspects is even worse) of my country. Still, if people are really so fed up of the elites, why don't they just at least try to understand why they are in that condition. It's useless to blame the "elite" when nobody knows exactly what the elite is. In my understanding, things started messing up, worldwide, with the George W. Bush government: with the taxes cut and the increase of federal spending on (in my opinion) useless stuff the national debt quickly rose and left the country in deficit. This happened at the worst time ever, and after a series (much longer of what anyone would imagine) of chain reactions, we all had a worldwide economic crisis. I am voluntarily oversimplifying things here since hundreds of pages wouldn't be enough to determine the causes of the worldwide recession. But in a few words: the "Elite" was just trying to defend their interests which, incidentally, was people's interests. You can't really blame banks for that: they lend money in order to pay you because they lost money in the first place. And they actually lost your money because of the crisis, reason why they had to lend other money from other international banks, which, of course, charged a higher interest rate because they also was running out of money. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 15:16:00 - [32] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: I'll come out of hiding to respond to this. What America needs after eight years of Obama is a nice big fat, dry dldo shoved up the collective ss of this diseased version of so-called liberal progressivism and its weapons of political correctness, social justice war and micro-aggression that has taken hold of this country. Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Trump is that d*ldo. He may not be the hero we want, but he is the tool we need. I'll take that over a pandering witch with a dirty cauldron any day. Finally! A Trump supporter! Why do you think that Trump is what America needs? Why is Social Justice that bad if everyone's happy? I think Obama has been quite a good president, what was wrong with him? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3847	Posted - 2016.09.29 19:40:00 - [33] - Quote byte modal wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: If the Republicans had nominated Condoleezza Rice to run she could have blown Clinton out of the water. She would have picked up a good part of the Democrat vote on top of her Republican base. Instead we have large numbers of Republicans debating whether they can hold their nose and vote for Hillery. If the Trump vote is a protest vote it has already been effective. Trump getting nominated has hit the Republican party like a hydrogen bomb. The candidates they run in the next election will probably be very different from the lineup that ran against Trump. Hopefully they get the point that people are looking for someone who isn't just reading from the 1970's Republican PlayBook. It would be sad... although not particularly surprising... if they look at Trump's success and think they need to run racist misogynistic assholes. Iderno. I thought the same after Palin. Instead, they seem to have just double-down. =/ Well I guess it's the same situation when everyone complains about Activision and Ubisoft for making bazillions of poorly made DLCs and putting out half-made games or copy/paste games. But then everyone buy the new Call of Duty. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3852	Posted - 2016.09.29 22:40:00 - [34] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: byte modal wrote: Do you really believe they will pull that trigger? See it all burn in spite? It's one thing to chest-thump. It's another to fill in a circle and live with the aftermath for four (or more) years. Don't tempt humanity that way. You just might get them triggered. If they cared about Sanders ideals they will close their eyes and vote against Trump. They should also found another party ffs. Lib-Dems, Socialdemocrats exist all over the world except USA for example. Or just go with something new. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3856	Posted - 2016.09.30 01:35:00 - [35] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: byte modal wrote: Do you really believe they will pull that trigger? See it all burn in spite? It's one thing to chest-thump. It's another to fill in a circle and live with the aftermath for four (or more) years. looks to Brexit I believe they would, yes. What? No. Britain got back control. You know. Control. Britain luckly just got out of the Kalergi plan. Did you know that there's a plan (made up by the evil count Richard Nikolaus Eijiro) to kill us europeans all? Immigrants are forced to come to europe in order to replace the locals that are ageing and are not having sons. The economic destabilization happens on purpose by the evil EUSSR beaurocrats so that local people are going to have less children, since they can't guarantee their child a decent life. They are basically killing us all. And Britain finally got his sovreignty again! Finally! All Hail Britannia! All Hail Britannia! Down with the elevens....oh...no, wait. I just made up 99% of this post. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3857	Posted - 2016.09.30 17:15:00 - [36] - Quote :( thank you CCP Frame. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3858	Posted - 2016.09.30 18:29:00 - [37] - Quote byte modal wrote: wait. Was it locked? Huh no....oooh. Lol really? Wait. OMG. THEY'RE MAKING ROOM FOR NEW INCOMING GD TOPICS!!! Release pending confirmed by CCP Frame!!1! Nah I believe it was moved since it could have been a bit "inflammable" topic.... take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3858	Posted - 2016.10.01 02:30:00 - [38] - Quote Living Rock 523 wrote: I cannot stress this enough, nothing said here matters at all even a little bit. Vote how you like, the Deep State is going nowhere. And the Deep State is not a USA only phenomenon. Take a look at what countries have fallen under the control of the IMF recently. Iraq, Lybia, and the newest prize, Iran. And almost every nation represented on these forums is currently helping in the fight to deliver Syria at the IMFs feet. I guess America's propaganda machine has become so good it's even bamboozling you Europeans. Candidates can receive anonymous campaign donations, having your name placed on the ballot costs a ton of money, in each state. As ridiculous as Trump is, his nonsense showed us that district representatives are allowed to ignore the law and not vote as instructed by their constituents. As happy as I am about the rest of the world enjoying the Reality TV that is America, there is more than enough stupidity on the topic over here. Again, the Deep State. The Bohemian Grove stuff is interesting as well. If you think anything, even a first world government, is going to get in between the world's wealthy elite and even higher profits, you are a fool. I don't want to seem rude, but if there's something I really can't stand is this kind of intervention. Let me elaborate: The "Deep State" does not exist. There's no "shadow" government. Aliens, if they exist, never visited earth. Nobody ever travelled through time. Chem trails does not exist. The IMF is simply a "tool" to prevent the spreading of an eventual economic crisis to the whole world. The Bilderberg Group is some kind of informal meeting between some of the world most prominent minds. There's no secret code in Vatican City. The Pope is not the devil. 2012 wasn't the end of the world. I can go on all day long, but you got the point. And,I believe there's no need to argue the inexistance of conspiracy theories like the ones you mentioned. If you were talking about a "deep state" which is a state that indirectly do big businesses interest, well that's actually an economic theory, part of macroeconomics. ( you can start fromhere, here, here and here...actually, it would be great to watch the whole series, for anyone ) Of course, this doesn't mean that big businesses are directly controlling the government and also this doesn't mean that you as a citizen are not having big benefits from big businesses. Even if it is almost counterintuitive, people are the ones who gains the most from their own country big businesses. And, of course, your real government will do anything to protect those big businesses (actually, there's another economic theory that says it would be better to let the economy do its flow with no government regulation... but that's just one of them, there are many, more reliable macroeconomic theories out there). On the only fair point. You're right: as far as I know your representatives can sometimes ignore their constituents will on certain subjects. That's exactly how representative democracy works. Think about brexit: the british parliament could very well veto brexit if they wanted to. Both the House of Commons and the House of Lords, but that doesn't mean they're going to. You might want direct democracy, but that's a totally different discussion. And to be honest direct democracy has many flaws too. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3858	Posted - 2016.10.01 12:41:00 - [39] - Quote Living Rock 523 wrote: And I can't stand college age ignorant European's thinking they know everything about a topic they actually have no clue about. The only thing you got right is that I'm from EU . Have you read the discussion with Talos? I ended up agreeing with most of his points, even tho we had different point of views. He made fair points. So let's start again, why does the International Monetary Fund have something to do with Iraq, Lybia, Iran and Syria? Believe me that "America's propaganda machine" is doing nothing really in EU. As you might see in these TTIP protests in Germany, UK, Bruxelles,Italy. As you also might see here, and especially here, Eu is really not trying to do USA any favour, on the contrary, the first refers to some of the biggest businesses in USA that avoided billions of taxes in EU (mainly, Apple, Amazon and Starbucks) that now have to be payed and the second talks about Deutsche Bank that may simply not pay USA "fines" and I quote "dass wir diese Summe nicht zahlen werden". So, given that USA "propaganda" is not bamboozling much, what are the other things you talk about? Why should there be a "deep state"? And what is it? And who are the people in charge of this deep state? Also, why does Bohemian Grove has anything to do with all these things? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3881	Posted - 2016.10.31 14:30:00 - [40] - Quote CLONE117 wrote: i can picture hilaries face next to a WW2 nazl flag.. im probably gonna get alot of hate. trump says stupid stuff too. but its just meaningless stuff i hear in lets say every day forum rooms like this. or even destiny forums. and trump gets attacked for saying the same or similar stuff?. damn near everything trump says. looks and sounds to be honest. mean while hilary proganda is just. its cleary lies and propaganda and the people who believe it are idiots. and from the comedians. that take many funny nit picked shots at trump.. my question is why dont they also fire rounds at hilary was well? and question her as well?. i dont know much about the entire situation my self but. it sounds like trump would be good for the U.S. hilary would just bleed the county dry from greed and corruption. but with trump being a business man and everything. it makes me skeptical of him as well. but asides all that it feels like im just sitting around doing nothing and saying nothing. waiting around for death to come knocking. but the thing is. i want to be ready for that day. and be the one to kick down my own door with a suit of power armor and a minigun spraying lead apon my foes. Well, I just know some of Trump's Domestic policies, but for sure international policies are indeed a direct threat for us (europeans), for japanese and for NATO, overall. The very only thing I may agree with Trump is about that abortion of TTIP. But yeah, let's face it, I don't really like both of them, if I were American I would just choose the lesser of the two evils, which in my opinion is Clinton, and I would have probably supported Sanders more than any other candidate. But I believe it comes down to the coception most of us europeans have of the State: which should be a social state that care about all of its people. For example we have free healthcare, state retirement plans, state education that only charge a (compared to US) small fee or totally for free if you meet certain conditions. But we probably pay more taxes. I'll make a last question, why would you "picture hilaries face next to a WW2 nazl flag" when clearly the one that has much more in common with ***** (or, anyway, the new european far right) is Trump (xenofobia, populism, plain lies, strumentalisation of fears etc)? Or, why would you picture just her and not both? take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514

xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3883	Posted - 2016.11.01 05:35:00 - [41] - Quote See, I don't really get this. It's not demonizing: I wouldn't even care about what he says in private, for example, but it's the things he says officially that worry me the most. More guns, really? A wall to stop mexicans coming into your country, wouldn't it be better to spend those money on healthcare? Wouldn't it be better to spend those money on education? On childcare? On pretty much anything that comes to your mind, actually. Lower corporation taxes to help big industries even more? These are just the domestic policies I know, you probably know more than me, but judging by these.... You just don't promise things that cannot be done. He shouldn't fool half Americans by just saying that things can be done because he's a "great entrepeneur" or by saying "trust me". Why would you trust him, anyway? So...I can't understand. Yours is just a feeling or there's something more? Something I don't see? Because as much as you and I don't like Clinton, my pen would never cast a vote for Trump if I were American (and by the way, my general political orientation would be much closer to Republicans than Democrats, being it more right wing). take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514
xxwhitedevilxx M Maphia Clan Corporation 3886	Posted - 2016.11.09 15:28:00 - [42] - Quote MEGA MAN7 wrote: And the winner is... drum-roll Donal Trump Well, at least, it doesn't feel that bad to be italian now. take time or take aurums (Gò»#-_-)Gò»~~~GòºGòÉGòº [FSTNM SCDNM] #PortDust514

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