| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
462
   |
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:35:00 -
[1] - Quote
J0LLY R0G3R wrote:Cost too much?
Can't afford to run it?
Don't run it, don't run what you can't lose.
XD
While I agree with the sentiment, it has to do with the fact that the logi role, in order to actually do their role effectively, must cost significantly more than an equivalent slayer suit. Part of this is the fact that a logi needs to provide supporting fire and/or specialty weapons in addition to needing to run PRO Equipment (due to the scaling of efficacy of equipment).
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
|
IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
The costs are extreme for hives but they are the most under-utilized equipment on the battlefield.
Uplinks/ scanners/ needles/ remotes are so valuable that (as has already been stated) you could charge a mil per item and they would still be used.
If anything I would reduce the cost for hives to encourage their use. Wp is another discussion as is the extreme leaps in efficiency like that of links and reppers.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:J0LLY R0G3R wrote:Cost too much?
Can't afford to run it?
Don't run it, don't run what you can't lose.
XD While I agree with the sentiment, it has to do with the fact that the logi role, in order to actually do their role effectively, must cost significantly more than an equivalent slayer suit. Part of this is the fact that a logi needs to provide supporting fire and/or specialty weapons in addition to needing to run PRO Equipment (due to the scaling of efficacy of equipment).
It is also important to note that in an effort to secede from traditional Eve styles for the sake of Dust 514.... well, working... we can't get trapped in the same dogmatic principles as Eve Online.
Unfortunately, we do not have a player based economy with which to influence prices of our own accord - thereby, what we can and cannot afford to lose is largely out of our control. A player should note feel as though they cannot run their chosen specialization because of low payouts conflicting with high costs and re-evaluating equipment prices seems to be a much easier solution that addresses a very specific concern.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
To that end... slashing the costs, even dramatically, and reducing WP marginally should attain that end.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
|
Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'm really curious as to why Cross Atu isn't running this thread.
We have a very lengthy and in depth thread about this very subject. I'm digging for it now. I work a lot, so standby, lol.
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
|
IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Logis sacrifice the sidearm slot and hp for wp earnings and a victory.
Are those sufficient guidlines?
That a logi kit cost be equivalent to the cost of a good sidearm (+ or -)
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
|
MrShooter01
Ustio Mercenary Squadron
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 02:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Damn, this is harder than I thought
I WAS thinking the simplest change to start with would be to bring the equipment variant prices down to the same level as the "vanilla" piece of equipment.
Its the same thing we recently did with infantry weapons: Remember how for example a proto AR is 47k isk, and a Proto Tactical AR was around 70k, but then our savior Rattati made all the different weapon variants cost just as much as the vanilla weapon, so people would use them more?
So, same concept with equipment. Like the proto repair tools... we've got the basic Core at 12k, then suddenly the Lai Dai and Six Kin cost twice as much, and holy hell the core focused is three times that, but they're all proto!? Why not lower them all to 12k, boom. Done.
USUALLY the equipment variants already have some tradeoff besides price that would have made this suggestion simple.
Like increased fitting requirements, specialized things like triage hives, the core focused has a tiny range and only reps 1 target, etc.
But there are at least a couple of cases where a more expensive piece of equipment is a flat out upgrade over a cheaper one, and nobody would ever have a reason to buy them if they cost the same (Ishukone Nanohive vs Ishukone Gauged Nanohive)
Hm.
What I'd really like to see in the future is a balance pass for equipment, giving love or at least a purpose to stuff like Flux nanohives (Who in the world gives a **** about a 10% larger field?) vanilla active scanners (no reason to use these over the vastly superior active scanner variants) and vanilla drop uplinks (same, if isk was not a factor)
Then you can give them all reasonable tradeoffs against eachother and make the isk price uniform  |
IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 03:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
But until that pass occurs standardize ( as he said) the price and the WP to avoid flagrant abuse)and monitor the results.
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 04:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm really curious as to why Cross Atu isn't running this thread.
We have a very lengthy and in depth thread about this very subject. I'm digging for it now. I work a lot, so standby, lol.
#ReasonsThatICan'tGoInto
Find the thread and link it here please, interested in seeing it.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
D4GG3R
S.K.I.L.L OF G.O.D
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 04:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
30k for an RE?! Really?......
"Dagger is like a mage, damage him enough and he runs."
-Nega Matix
I watch anime for the boobs
|
|
|
Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 05:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Piercing Serenity wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Do you think that Drop Uplinks should be much more difficult to use and/or less rewarding than nanite injectors?
To answer your question directly I would say that, if the scale is "greater rewards come with greater difficulties", then uplinks should be more difficult to use than nanite injectors. To answer your question more fully, I would say that uplinks are only more valuable than nanite injectors because the "benefit" of uplinks as implemented is game breaking. Being able to spawn wherever you would like in three seconds in a game where objectives can be hacked in as few as four will always be more rewarding than saving your clone count, despite the fact that the latter is a direct win condition. Once uplinks / scanners are in the same range of reward as the other pieces of equipment, then the scale would become more useful, IMO.
Unfortunately making uplinks harder to use it a bit of an issue. How would you even do that apart from making them 'deployable on the ground only'? (meaning not deployable on roofs)
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 05:46:00 -
[12] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Do you think that Drop Uplinks should be much more difficult to use and/or less rewarding than nanite injectors?
To answer your question directly I would say that, if the scale is "greater rewards come with greater difficulties", then uplinks should be more difficult to use than nanite injectors. To answer your question more fully, I would say that uplinks are only more valuable than nanite injectors because the "benefit" of uplinks as implemented is game breaking. Being able to spawn wherever you would like in three seconds in a game where objectives can be hacked in as few as four will always be more rewarding than saving your clone count, despite the fact that the latter is a direct win condition. Once uplinks / scanners are in the same range of reward as the other pieces of equipment, then the scale would become more useful, IMO. Unfortunately making uplinks harder to use it a bit of an issue. How would you even do that apart from making them 'deployable on the ground only'? (meaning not deployable on roofs)
Hmm... Dunno. Thinking maybe we could make CRUs and MCRUs more valuable by having the lowest spawn times and increasing the Drop Uplink spawn times again. Dunno though. Logi's might start a riot.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 05:57:00 -
[13] - Quote
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I'm really curious as to why Cross Atu isn't running this thread.
We have a very lengthy and in depth thread about this very subject. I'm digging for it now. I work a lot, so standby, lol.
Just because one person runs a general logi thread doesn't mean they have to run an equipment thread that focuses more on one of the specific issues.
Not every logi input thread has to be run by cross.
that would be kinda like saying Darth or kirk should get my permission to poke at AV numbers. For the record, yes I consider the idea absurd.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
|
Avallo Kantor
890
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 06:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'd argue that equipment should be, as Breakin says, standardized in price somewhat.
I favor an overall cheaper equipment cost in general and think that logi equipment should be divided into three standardized cost brackets.
1) Deployable Equipment (Spawn Pads, Nanohives) should be around the cost of what spawn beacons are at currently. Such equipment is often run by other classes other than just Logistics, albeit to lesser effect. Scouts and Assaults frequently use these equipment to augment their capabilities and this tier of equipment's cost should reflect a broad, cheap appeal.
2) Carried Equipment (Such as Rep Tools and Scanners) This equipment should be priced at the same level as scanners currently, if not a bit cheaper. They should still be more expensive than deployable equipment but not enough to be unreasonable. The purpose of this equipment should be with the intent that a suit only has one copy of each carried equipment at a time. even if that may not necessarily be the case.
3) Nanite Injectors: This should be the dirt cheap equipment to promote use and awareness of this equipment. I would prefer it to be almost the 'default' equipment on Assault suits, aka the equipment one carries when they don't have a desire to use anything else. I'd even go so far as to argue that logi suits come with one pre-equiped with one of the same-tier (and like other pre-equiped items can just be overwritten)
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
|
Avallo Kantor
890
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 06:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Baal Omniscient wrote:Piercing Serenity wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:
Do you think that Drop Uplinks should be much more difficult to use and/or less rewarding than nanite injectors?
To answer your question directly I would say that, if the scale is "greater rewards come with greater difficulties", then uplinks should be more difficult to use than nanite injectors. To answer your question more fully, I would say that uplinks are only more valuable than nanite injectors because the "benefit" of uplinks as implemented is game breaking. Being able to spawn wherever you would like in three seconds in a game where objectives can be hacked in as few as four will always be more rewarding than saving your clone count, despite the fact that the latter is a direct win condition. Once uplinks / scanners are in the same range of reward as the other pieces of equipment, then the scale would become more useful, IMO. Unfortunately making uplinks harder to use it a bit of an issue. How would you even do that apart from making them 'deployable on the ground only'? (meaning not deployable on roofs) Hmm... Dunno. Thinking maybe we could make CRUs and MCRUs more valuable by having the lowest spawn times and increasing the Drop Uplink spawn times again. Dunno though. Logi's might start a riot.
Honestly I feel that player skill should always allow for a better option than any 'default' options in the game. The main benefit of a CRU should be it's innate scan area, and infinite spawn ability. (As well as slightly randomized appearance around it)
The best in class spawn timers should -always- belong to a Logi class, specifically the Amarr. Each Logi class should provide something that is clearly best in class and I think that having that allows for players to better define and show their battlefield role.
I'd make the following comparison: Do you think Installations should be better weapon platforms than Tanks? I feel that answer should apply to CRU vs Logi Beacons as well.
"Mind Blown" - CCP Rattati
|
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
279
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 07:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hey! Thought I'd reply. First off, I'm on mobile, so forgive any spelling/grammatical errors! It's also 3:45am EST, just got done watching Taken (mediocre movie, great action, blandiah and predictable plot, yada yada yada), so I'm a little out of it.
From a logi standpoint, hell yes, equipment cost does need to be reduced. It's ridiculous that I pay 26k ISK for a proto tool (I can't bring myself to use anything less than a Six Kin Repper). I have a BPO needle, and I use it. F*ck paying for any other level. You get more WPs by picking with a 30% needle and repping back to health. More WP = more money, and for a logi, you play to break even, or at least I do. Call me a **** logi. I am, I know. I'm rambling though.
I'll answer your questions, and provide a solution.
a) Oh my God, yes. PLEASE change it. Make it lower. Standardize the damn prices. I'm not a market guy, so idk what they should be, but the current is too damn high.
b) As far "pain points", I assume you mean what is a pain in the ass to buy? For me, repair tools. I use all STD equipment (BPO needle, STD hives, and STD links on my Min Logi), except for tools, because that's how I roll. Rep tools are so expensive that I have resorted to running MFW, paying like 150LP and 5.5k-ish ISK to get the Republic Boundless, I think it is. 26k is stupid ridiculous, and these high prices, I feel, discourage newbies from playing logi.
c) Pros for changing prices? Everybody will be running logi :P People complain about blueberries not doing ****, well now they will be. :P For real though, you'll be helping all logis, and wannabe logis, by taking a burden off their wallet every time they have to restock, which will allow them to run logi more! More reps for you, more points for me, you drop an orbital. It's a win, win, win, loss (for the cranberries  ).
d) Cons? Everybody will be running logi, and the forums will be filled with " stop motherfucking logi-ing, pussies" posts
Quite humorous to read if you're a forum warrior. More cons....ehh....REs and cloaks everywhere :P This will lead to a scanner, RE, and cloak nerf :P But that's why you only would lower prices for links, hives, needles, and rep tools. :P Oh, and lower scanner prices too. There are some people who actually use a Gallente logi for what it was meant to be used for, I hear
;)
Solution in the next post. :D
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
279
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 08:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Aaaaand now the solution!
Ripley Riley brought this up recently, and Ive echoed it on the most recent Biomassed Podcast (http://biomassed.net/2015/09/29/episode-73-av-on-hand/ Near the end).
What needs to happen is REMOVE ALL MILITIA GEAR from the game. Suits, weapons, equipment, etc. All of it
It serves no purpose. Then what you do is make some BPOs. STD links, scanners, hives, needles, and rep tools become BPOs, and available to ALL. This will save all new logis, current logis, and literally every player (cmon now. I know you all have STD hives on your Assault suits) ISK. Especially the logis though. "Why not make cloaks and REs BPOs while you're at it?" You ask. Well hey, **** you. I'm not giving you the "DUST 514 How to be a **** Starter Pack" for free.
Oh, and suits. ******* make suits cheaper. It think it's like, 1500 for a "X-Y" suit, 3k for a "X/Y" suit, and 8k and some change for a "X.Y" suit. That's crazy. 1500 for dashes, 2500 for slashes, and 3500-4k for proto suits is very reasonable in my mind. I hate paying so much for my ADV logi suits every time I restock. It's like I'm banging my head against a wall. Know why? Because I just lost what I made in 2 matches buying suits.
In Biomassed, I think it was Pokey who said he didn't like the idea of BPOs being everywhere, or something like that. If you agree with him, here's an idea; lower suit and equipment price. Like, I'ma reference this sheet Aeon linked. Wanna see something stupid? The price difference between ADV and Proto. I literally laughed so hard there were tears in my eyes and I pissed my shorts a little. It's laughable. I'm not a mathy guy, or a numbersy guy, but just by eyeballing it, proto costs 1.5x more than ADV on a lot of these things. Weapons too, I'm sure, but this isnt the topic.
I propose the BPO thing I posted above. As for new proposed prices, I'll take anything if it's substantially lower than the current prices.
k. 4:15am. Off to bed. School in 2 hours. Will be happy to answer any questions though
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
I-Shayz-I
I----------I
6
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 08:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Here's a proposal I had a long time ago:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharing
I wanted to make all subsets of equipment mean the same thing (quantum, gauged, flux, etc has a similar effect on all gear), and balance the ones we had (I even replaced the useless flux nanohive with new protoype quantum nanohives based on a revision to the X-3).
This was before the changes to make equipment more actively used by increasing the amounts carried, so you can ignore those values.
Key
-Green: Positive change
-Red: Negative change
-Blue: Non-significant change
-Purple: Complete rework (Prototype quantum)
-Underline: Rework of a single value on equipment (making the X-3 quantum variant actually a "quantum" variant)
As for isk prices (third tab on spreadhseet), I simply took an average of every tier of equipment prices, then rounded the price to a normal looking number. There is a key on that page describing what tiers I was looking at.
For me there are 7 tiers
-STD
-STD Variant
-ADV
-ADV Variant
-PRO
-PRO Variant
-PRO Focused*
*Also includes Triage and Allotek nanohives. If there was an isk variant of the 5 second uplinks it would be in this tier as well
As long as the equipment is BALANCED PROPERLY (hence the first part of my post), isk values are simply a matter of labeling a tier. An advanced repair tool should cost the same as an advanced nanohive or uplink. Just because you have a different playstyle doesn't mean you should have to spend more isk to do so.
Before I would have argued that a "set it and forget it" playstyle with uplinks literally costs you nothing due to the old mechanics allowing you to run around in a heavy suit after dropping 20 uplinks in your logi suit you won't have to die in. But now that every type of equipment must be actively used there is no reason to price one thing over another.
tldr
It might be easier to set a standard isk price per meta level of equipment. I just don't ever look at meta levels so I don't know how that would treat all types of equipment.
7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 09:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
I-Shayz-I wrote:Here's a proposal I had a long time ago: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_ytb13XWe3th0KUWFdNJD5NS_0Pqv5U8acUmhPxh6Ss/edit?usp=sharingI wanted to make all subsets of equipment mean the same thing (quantum, gauged, flux, etc has a similar effect on all gear), and balance the ones we had (I even replaced the useless flux nanohive with new protoype quantum nanohives based on a revision to the X-3). This was before the changes to make equipment more actively used by increasing the amounts carried, so you can ignore those values. Key -Green: Positive change -Red: Negative change -Blue: Non-significant change -Purple: Complete rework (Prototype quantum) -Underline: Rework of a single value on equipment (making the X-3 quantum variant actually a "quantum" variant)
As for isk prices (third tab on spreadhseet), I simply took an average of every tier of equipment prices, then rounded the price to a normal looking number. There is a key on that page describing what tiers I was looking at. For me there are 7 tiers -STD -STD Variant -ADV -ADV Variant -PRO -PRO Variant -PRO Focused* *Also includes Triage and Allotek nanohives. If there was an isk variant of the 5 second uplinks it would be in this tier as well As long as the equipment is BALANCED PROPERLY (hence the first part of my post), isk values are simply a matter of labeling a tier. An advanced repair tool should cost the same as an advanced nanohive or uplink. Just because you have a different playstyle doesn't mean you should have to spend more isk to do so. Before I would have argued that a "set it and forget it" playstyle with uplinks literally costs you nothing due to the old mechanics allowing you to run around in a heavy suit after dropping 20 uplinks in your logi suit you won't have to die in. But now that every type of equipment must be actively used there is no reason to price one thing over another.
tldr It might be easier to set a standard isk price per meta level of equipment. I just don't ever look at meta levels so I don't know how that would treat all types of equipment.
Come to find out there already is an established price modifier per meta level of equipment, it's just harebrained as hell - set on an exponential progression that rapidly ascends for seemingly no reason at all. I'm revising it with a proposal at the moment which you can check out by going to spreadsheet in the OP and navigating to the pages "Primary Design Proposal" and "Cost Difference".
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 09:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
How about simplifying things and making all equipment cost the same a injectors or uplinks at the same level skill point requirement?
So a price for level 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5? Basic, advanced and proto, plus the variants. There's no need to have complex variations between different types of equipment.
This system should result in logis costing only a small amount more than assaults, and costing the same regardless of which types of equipment they use.
Please also include remote explosives in these considerations. They cost a disproportionately large amount of isk (pro remote - 29k isk, pro flux link - 10.5k isk.
Or you could just leave it as it is for the sake of fun weirdness, and the fun feeling of running a super expensive log. |
|
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 09:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:How about simplifying things and making all equipment cost the same a injectors or uplinks at the same level skill point requirement?
So a price for level 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5? Basic, advanced and proto, plus the variants. There's no need to have complex variations between different types of equipment.
This system should result in logis costing only a small amount more than assaults, and costing the same regardless of which types of equipment they use.
Please also include remote explosives in these considerations. They cost a disproportionately large amount of isk (pro remote - 29k isk, pro flux link - 10.5k isk.
Or you could just leave it as it is for the sake of fun weirdness, and the fun feeling of running a super expensive log.
See updated spreadsheet... sheets.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 10:10:00 -
[22] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
See updated spreadsheet... sheets.
I don't really agree that deployable weapons should be cheaper. The fact that they can run out is balanced by the fact they don't actively need to be used.
Also, with the amounts carried now they don't run out that often. Plus you can switch suits at a supply depot to get them back.
It seems like slightly flimsy reasoning.
Why don't you start them all off at 600 or 750 isk, and have them all progress with meta level in the same way? |
Tesfa Alem
Death by Disassociation
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 10:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Your design proposal just took the words out of my...erm, keyboard.
Base the price not on tier but meta level.
If you want to keep people from spamming equipment because of its more affrdable price, you could look at:
1) The fitting capacity of a suit to equip multiple proto equiplment
2) The quantity of equipment that can be deployed. Looking at you nanohives! Sure 6 standard hives is great for my commando fits, but ensures there is no reason to use a cal logi the way players use the gal, amarr, or min logis. Its bonus is very expensive, and is negated by every other suit.
Its akin to a proto amarr logi running 3 second uplinks, but a standard uplink was a 4 second one. Better but not good enough.
tl:dr, i support your proposed changes.
Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
"I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
|
WeapondigitX V7
The Exemplars
439
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 12:01:00 -
[24] - Quote
Reducing the ISK cost of adv and std equipment would be a good idea. However I believe PROTO equipment are very powerful and should not have there costs reduced. Otherwise it would create a much greater problem with PROTO gear having large benefits that are very much worth the cost, compared to adv equipment. |
Asad Thahab-Jabal
Incorruptibles
250
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 13:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
I am referring to the Cost Difference sheet in particular.
First impressions are that I really like the price drops for repair tools, nanohives, and drop uplinks. More than that, I am happy to see some standardization of ISK prices. If we ever were to get a new piece of equipment its price could be determined easily using this system.
Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
|
deezy dabest
IMPERIAL SPECIAL FORCES GROUP
Evil Syndicate Alliance.
3
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 15:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
All equipment should be priced by tier.
Roughly 50% of the equal tier weapon is probably the best starting point. This makes full proto logi still a risk while also making it viable for everyone to run 1 piece of equipment so that maybe we can get some decent uplinks and hives out there every once in a while.
The only voice for a port is the voice of reason from money drying up. More skins and 1% damage to keep Dust on PS3.
|
Asad Thahab-Jabal
Incorruptibles
250
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 16:28:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hey CPM2, will this change in any way effect the prices of LP store equipment?
Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
|
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
279
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 16:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Looking at the new numbers for equipment.
Why the hell did needles go up 150 ISK at the standard level? If anything, links and hives should see a price increase because you use more of them, if that makes sense.
Rel tool price is still too much, for my taste, at the proto level (Six Kin), but it's better than 21k. I wouldn't pay more than 10k from the regular market. Even then, I'd still go to the LP store and get my tools.
Love the nanohive price drop. <3
All things considered, the numbers look fantstic though. Much better than what they were. I'm still in support of getting rid of all MLT stuff, and making logi related equipment a BPO at standard level, but this is a start.
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
IAmDuncanIdaho II
Nos Nothi
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 17:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:What should be the deciding factor in how much an equipment item costs? How often it is used, what that use is, etc?
When I looked at the 3rd sheet it became obvious to me that the price should scale based on the meta level of the item. Then you get nice and easy-to-understand scaling across all tiers, with the existing flexibility.
The flexibility I'm talking about applies to the following scenario:
Item 1
- Proto
- Stat A = 10
- Stat B = 5
Item 2
- Proto
- Stat A = 5
- Stat B = 10
You want flexibility to say that Stat A should cost more than Stat B, so you make the meta-level of Item 1 higher than the meta-level of Item 2. Then the cost scales accordingly. Use some base cost and apply meta-level as a multiplier.
This allows things like flux hives (reduced spawn times) to cost more than other proto hives and other such equipment similarities as we have now, and to simply use meta-levels as weightings (which is all they actually are I guess)
And if it wasn't apparent already, yes I think it would make sense to have different equipment of the same "value" cost the same.
This post has been liked by XxBlazikenxX
|
shaman oga
Dead Man's Game
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 17:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
Who am i to say no to this normalization?
I agree, also i like the logic behind deployable cheaper than not handheld.
Regressed to blueberry level.
|
|
|
Saint Winter
The Warlords Legion
No Context
156
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 17:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Hello everyone .
I think it would be better to cut the price of some equipment.
Which I would like to change them the price is Focused Armor Repairer , I say that 35,000 to 25,000 or 21,180ISK.
Why Change The Price :
Well it costs too much for a restful, clear but has a magnificent repair rate , but have the smallest range and minor than a militia variant , so I say that this should have cost .
Another thing I'd like to give him a buff range of 7.5 to 9.0 m to the Focused Armor Repairer .
In relation to the other variants they are very well so I think they left the current price.
I have nothing to say .
Thanks for read my idea . |
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
279
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 18:17:00 -
[32] - Quote
Saint Winter wrote:Hello everyone .
I think it would be better to cut the price of some equipment.
Which I would like to change them the price is Focused Armor Repairer , I say that 35,000 to 25,000 or 21,180ISK.
Why Change The Price :
Well it costs too much for a restful, clear but has a magnificent repair rate , but have the smallest range and minor than a militia variant , so I say that this should have cost .
Another thing I'd like to give him a buff range of 7.5 to 9.0 m to the Focused Armor Repairer .
In relation to the other variants they are very well so I think they left the current price.
I have nothing to say .
Thanks for read my idea .
....you do realize the Core Focused is like that for a reason, right?
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 18:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
What annoys me about pricing is that it's obviously aimed at triage players wallets.
Proof?
BDR-2 Repair tool - standard - cost:4,935
BDR-5 Axis repair tool - vehicle specified - cost:4,935
BDR-8 Triage repair tool - dropsuit specified - cost:8,070
Think it's price difference is based on how much repairing it (the triage varient) does over the standard?
BDR-2: 60 hp/s ,75 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on dropsuits
98 hp/s,122.5 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on vehicles
BDR-5:45 hp/s,56.25 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on dropsuits
112 hp/s,140 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on vehicles.
BDR-8:75 hp/s,93.75 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on dropsuits.
73 hp/s,91.25 hp/s min logistics lv 5 on vehicles.
The BDR-8 gains 15 hp/s on dropsuits,but loses 15 hp/s on vehicles.
The BDR-5 loses 15 hp/s on dropsuits,but gains 14 hp/s on vehicles.
Both loss and gains are almost equal,yet the triage version costs more? 3135 extra to be exact.
And here's the most painful part...The BDR-5 can out vehicle repair the basic Pro repair tool.(With an 8,280 ISK savings.)
Yet the triage version cannot out dropsuit repair the basic Pro repair tool.
The only repair tool that beats the BDR-5 axis (in vehicle repair) is the Core focused,yet the triage version is immediately outclassed as soon as you upgrade making the advanced triage tool worthless.
I believe that price suppression (Pro is too expensive to use consecutively) is the only motivation driving the general use of the shoddy ADV tool.
If the ADV triage version were as effective as it's vehicle counterpart it would be chosen on merits alone,single beam or not.
Just remember to look deeper than .5 inches when deciding price change suggestions,or it'll be the BDR-8 all over again.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
|
CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 18:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:For my part I feel that the equipment should be universally standardized like modules, dropsuits and weapons. I am wide open on where the price points should fall however.
This. I don't really think that different types of equipment should cost more or less than others. Only its performance should alter price unless weapon visuals (skins) came into the mix.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
|
CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 18:44:00 -
[35] - Quote
shaman oga wrote:Who am i to say no to this normalization?
I agree, also i like the logic behind deployable cheaper than not handheld.
I had not considered this but a good point. It would make sense, doesn't necessarily mean that we should however.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
|
CELESTA AUNGM
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
661
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:08:00 -
[36] - Quote
 Because Dust is presented as an "fps" when it's arguably not really one primarily,... and because there are always players dashing around shooting in wild addiction and not able to watch the overview map, many will argue my opinion that LOGI isn't just what "helped" your squad win that last match... logi "WON" that match for you squad, as well as the match just before this one, and at least 7 other matches earlier today!
A gun in the hands of a really advanced player will do a lot of damage in Dust. But a piece of logi equipment in the hands of even a bright sophomore player is likely to give the enemy a really hard time trying to win this match.
So here's my "whoa, WHAT, Celesta?!" statement:
Because they are so pivotal and useful in "winning", tanking troops that would normally be defeated, and controlling map-access to a degree that the enemy can't effectively shut off,... logi equipment SHOULD be disturbingly more expensive than the other grunt weaponry.
A dropship is gamepiece that is far more potent than 95% of players seem to realize. I've accompanied good (I mean the ACTUAL good) DS players who, with very little help, owned match after match after match with just two transport dropships opening the Nulls for our team, and closing them from the other team trying to get to them.
....But the simple fact that DS is so difficult to do well, and so long to build-SP into prevents dropships from sabotaging every darn match and poisoning the game.
I hope keeping logi gear and skills on a high stiff price-range is what's keeping EVERY match from being plagued with uplink measles, nanohive hooka-pipe dens, nanohive vampirism at the Supply Depots, and having your sneak-attempts revealed to the enemy because there were 4 "logis" running along behind you wanting to be the first to get repper-points off your fat suit. "No, go back-- I'm not hurt; get off me---YOU ARE GOING TO GET US KILLED, will you leave me alone, please?!!!"
So I don't really want the logi gear pricing to fall in line with the rest of the market stock. If it's a stiffly-higher cost than a good adv gun,... good. If the costs of the gun market goes up, I hope the logi costs go up too.
I prefer the price to frighten players from doing "casual" logi work, and reserve the work for those who will pay the extra cost because they want to be LOGI devotees.
Universe of good wishes for the 49, especially CCP Eterne...
No story can have life without writers and publishers.
|
Asad Thahab-Jabal
Incorruptibles
250
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:14:00 -
[37] - Quote
CELESTA AUNGM wrote:I prefer the price to frighten players from doing "casual" logi work, and reserve the work for those who will pay the extra cost because they want to be LOGI devotees. Being casual is the first step to being MLG pro diamond tier brah.
Quit being elitist 
Ripley Riley is on safari until Oct 9th. I will represent him until he returns.
|
IceShifter Childhaspawn
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
781
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:46:00 -
[38] - Quote
I like the proposals. The increases are fair and not deal breaking.
At those prices Ill be leaving alloteks instead of kds at chokepoints!
Just a thought and while you are in the equipment focus
Some of these mercs suggestions arent bad. Leaving the CRUs at base 15 and having links scale from 4 to 10 is a good one.
Things will have to adjust after the hotfix is implemented anyways so save WP and hives for then.
(I would rather have too many logis than half the team quitting.)
It's hard to beat up hundreds of armor piercing bullets using only your face...
|
Aeon Amadi
12
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 20:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
To clarify on some of the changes made in the spreadsheet:
The prices are spit-balled. What really, truly matters is that you understand and are knowledgeable that prices - even in the game as you are currently playing it - are based off of the meta level of the equipment in question. The prices are modified by a set multiplier based on the meta level itself with the base price being affected by that multiplier.
So, when someone earlier commented, "Why would you increase the price of Nanite Injectors?", the answer to that is that the base price was given the same as the other handheld equipment (active scanner and repair tool) and the price modifiers on the next tiers up were based on their meta level.
To be absolutely clear: This proposal is not about base prices, which can be modified, it is about the price modifier applied to the meta levels. This proposal is to -DECREASE- the multiplicative amount per meta level and close the gap in the price ranges between Meta 1 and Meta 8+ based on an exponential progression. This will result in a standardized function that is easy to understand, predictable in nature, and easily iterated on in the future.
Whereas 'placed' equipment is cheaper in this proposal -it is in no way what the proposal centralizes and hallmarks on-. It was a way to see, at a glance, what the effects would be if that route was taken while focusing on what we want to address: The reduction in equipment price per meta level by reducing the multiplicative value with which is applied to the base value of the meta one (1) item.
The base prices can be iterated on later. For now, try to focus your feedback on the price multipliers for each meta level, within reason. I.E: Don't suggest that they be free =P
EDIT: Also bear in mind that this proposal will be in conjunction with CPM Cross Atu's work and may be changed once the proposal is finalized. For now, we're just looking at the methodology with which Equipment is being priced. Balance, parity, etc has likely already been covered with the work that Cross Atu has done and any of your feedback in that regard should be given in the appropriate area.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
|
Vrain Matari
Mikramurka Shock Troop
Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 21:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
My feeling on this are a bit off-topic, but for a good reason.
Apex and bpos make this entire conversation very nearly a moot point: if we paid for everything we lost then equipment pricing would be an important topic. As things stand, however, for almost any player with some time and the most meager amount of cash invested in Dust equipment cost is a consideration, but not a big one.
Wealth is relative and with the saturation of proto and more recent proliferation of officer gear, equipment pricing means very little. Imo, this game lost a lot with the string of game design decisions that gradually estranged gear level from personal player skill.
More pertinent to the OP's question: On my Ammarian scout alt who has reached 10 million sp with no passive skill training, no boosters, events, or bpos her ISK balance is perpetually rising while running the most powerful gear her skills allow. Because of this i feel that rationalization of gear pricing might be intellectually satisfying but still totally irrelevant to my gameplay experience - there are several more significant game design issues to deal with first.
PSN: RationalSpark
|
|
|
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
281
|
Posted - 2015.09.30 23:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
CELESTA AUNGM wrote: I prefer the price to frighten players from doing "casual" logi work, and reserve the work for those who will pay the extra cost because they want to be LOGI devotees.
First off, in pretty insulted that you called what I do "casual logi work" (1k WP per match, I assume is "casual"). I will " hardcore logi" a lot of the time, but when I'm not, guess what, I'm either logi-ing or sniping. I have a bad gun game (ask my corp mates. I'm always going negative :P), and a logistical support role is something that I'm good at. So please, don't insult how I play just because you think you can do it better, which is what you're implying with statements like "casual logi work" :)
While I admire this statement, I don't necessarily agree with it. Even a high price that "frightens players from doing 'casual' logi work..." those who do well will still die a bunch in matches, even in proto (turns out proto gear does not make you a DUST God). Those people will lose ISK, even if they run full proto, which is expensive, obviously. Even those of us who run STD and ADV gear will ultimately lose more money than we make, with the current prices.
Now, if the prices were lowered, I would gamble and say you'd see more people doing more than "casual logi work", which would help the team in the long run. Nobody likes to lose ISK, clearly, and the logi role is one of the most brutal roles, as far as ISK made to ISK lost. This discourages players from being a logi. If the ISK Lost/ISK Made ratio were better, more people would logi, and you'd see more people advancing their logi skills, which would produce more " hardcore logi players".
We all have to start somewhere before we get to your "god tier" logi skills. You started with "casual logi work" I can almost guarantee :)
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
241
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 00:40:00 -
[42] - Quote
Why is there so much talk about making items cheaper....
The cost forces us to make decisions and scale our spending to our income. I am not in favor of making anything cheaper. As it is there is only one tier being ran and that's proto in pretty much every match I am in. If you can't maintain ISK flows then it should be time to address your play styles not make items cheaper.
Add to this that a logi makes way more ISK per match on average than any other role and I see even less incentive to lower costs. Standardizing costs are one thing, but reducing costs just means even more of a single tier being ran and forces no decisions on players. It is simply all proto all the time in that case.
|
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 00:49:00 -
[43] - Quote
I'm down for cheaper equipment all around. Maybe a worthwhile method would be to slash pricing on the lower tier eq while only moderately reducing proto. Everything is reduced but the cheapest (and potentially more profitable to run equipment) is a bigger pain to use and vice versa.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
Booby Tuesdays
Bad Mother Thukkers
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 02:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
If anyone has spare time, this 86 page thread is finally having some it's ideas see the light of day. I'm linking to the closest point where we began talking about equipment pricing, but was shelved in favor of fixing other things with hotfixes Charlie and onward. I wish I could dig further, but my work schedule is brutal, and my wife is hot. So you know, half assed forum warrior and all. 
Also gone are all the spreadsheets Cross made from the findings in that over a year long thread. 
The thread that started it all
Edit, found some of the spreadsheets from the original thread.
OG Logi Thread
Half Assed Forum Warrior - Half Decent Commando - Damn Good Logi - Matari Freedom Fighter lvl 8
|
knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2015.10.01 19:43:00 -
[45] - Quote
don't know how late i am to this party but, what if CCP coded in a way for the market to change its own rates on equipment and weapons and stuff depending on the amount that's bought, sold, and traded? like how Eve's market is but controlled by the NPC since player market isn't yet achievable for us yet
Kin of the Vherokior tribe and warrior of the republic
Self proclaimed minmatar lore master
|
Aiwha Bait
Incorruptibles
283
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 13:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kinda unrelated, but what if each tier of needles not only healed for more on pick up, but also picked up faster? STD needles took the normal time to pick, ADV picked maybe a second quicker, and Proto picked even quicker.
"Bait is too adorable to stab" - Zaria Min Deir
Writer and Editor for Biomassed
|
Alaika Arbosa
No Context
2
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 15:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:don't know how late i am to this party but, what if CCP coded in a way for the market to change its own rates on equipment and weapons and stuff depending on the amount that's bought, sold, and traded? like how Eve's market is but controlled by the NPC since player market isn't yet achievable for us yet
I was about to suggest essentially this. Float prices on an equation involving player stockpiles, units purchased in past X days and units destroyed in combat in the past X days.
I <3 introducing reddots to ragdoll physics!
|
IR Scifi
OSG Planetary Operations
211
|
Posted - 2015.10.02 18:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
I can't say I've ever had too many issues with equipment costs. I've compared against some of my comrades assault fits and it seems very competitive price wise. Though I've pretty much ran the same exact logi fit since the suit was created.
I do like the idea of placed equipment being cheaper than handheld. As a derail I'd think the same idea could be applied to cpu/pg cost as well. |
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |