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Jadek is unhappy about PC Payouts

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Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 07:40:00 - [1] - Quote I assumed Rattati and team had made the change to PC payout with the "Keep what you kill' mechanic whereby it seemed even the losing team gets ISK for the other team's losses...which was meant to encourage raiding. I am finding it out now from Negative Feedback player this is not the case. A XERCC corp a member placed an attack order on NF. for tomorrow [July 14th 03:00]. The whole fight in militia suits against their proto suits for ISK payout is a crap-shoot. Still, if you're in corp and get into the PC battle, you get DK; win or lose. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199167 CCP Frame wrote: After lengthy discussions with the majority of District holders, we have decided to switch the reward mechanics to a new method, which has been previously discussed in the Features and Ideas Forums. This means that Team A will earn Team BGÇÖs ISK losses, split equally among Team A members, and vice versa. This means that District battles are no longer GÇ£winner takes allGÇ¥, making it viable to stick it out, switching to more cost effective gear and causing enough losses on the enemy to break even. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 2	Posted - 2015.07.13 07:58:00 - [2] - Quote Before PC Payout changes, battles payed well (5 million give or take) but passive farming ran rampant. Then CCP decided to move towards PC 2.0 in a haphazard and painful manner, eliminating the Farming, but also absolutely eviscerating payouts and removing ISK for clones sold. For a time, there was no point in PC battles at all as owning districts became a leech on corp funds rather than a boost. Quite a few players left, and the competitive landscape fell into stagnation. Removing nearly all forms of ISK generation months before implementing 2.0 and the active generation that came with it was one of the most unfortunate decisions CCP had made in a long time. Now though, while individual battles are not worth the effort in a monetary sense, owning districts most definitely is. Hopefully we will see a new generation of corps take advantage of the wealth available to them. YouTube Pink Scramblers!
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:10:00 - [3] - Quote I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:36:00 - [4] - Quote They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 340	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:36:00 - [5] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Why? Didn't you just say that 1 corps going into PC with militia against proto players, just for free dk. Expect more of that, apex/militia going into PC losing nothing/gaining free isk. I guess itd be an incentive to not no show. Hmmm. If that logics going into PC, id expect it to also go into FW. Ex. Players who try hard but still lose get a fair LP payout. not as much as the winner but still. Get some life in your hands.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:44:00 - [6] - Quote hails8n wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Why? Didn't you just say that 1 corps going into PC with militia against proto players, just for free dk. Expect more of that, apex/militia going into PC losing nothing/gaining free isk. I guess itd be an incentive to not no show. Hmmm. If that logics going into PC, id expect it to also go into FW. Ex. Players who try hard but still lose get a fair LP payout. not as much as the winner but still. I'd wanted to see the meta encompass raiding to soften targets wallets. We are still paying CP to start a battle. CCP Frame's quote from the OP. "This means that District battles are no longer GÇ£winner takes allGÇ¥, making it viable to stick it out, switching to more cost effective gear and causing enough losses on the enemy to break even." Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:47:00 - [7] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. They still kept a payout of 200 DK even if you lost. Seems silly to remove ISK efficiency from the equation from the losing side payout if you're still going to add DK rewards. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Michael Arck 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:48:00 - [8] - Quote Well that sucks. Goes against the raid design. Is it a bug of some kind? Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:58:00 - [9] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. Here it is. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=203528&find=unread CCP Rattati wrote: 2) PC battle reward: Winners get salvage reward based on both teams' consumed items, losers get nothing It never seemed right that the loser of a PC battle would get to salvage the battlegrounds, as they had been chased away. Now that both sides get to keep what they kill, it's only fair that the winners get more loot for themselves. This should prove a welcome boost to earnings and an incentive to win PC battles. Discuss! When he said this, I thought it only applied to the salvage table, not ISK payout. It's confusing when he stated this. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2790372#post2790372 Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:58:00 - [10] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. They still kept a payout of 200 DK even if you lost. Seems silly to remove ISK efficiency from the equation from the losing side payout if you're still going to add DK rewards...if you're guaranteed a DK payout regardless of what you do that seem to encourage afk behavior in a PC. depends on how much one can actually buy with dk. that will determine whether it's worth going afk in a pc battle that already costs a good deal of CP already. also its a small consolation prize for new corps who might have lost their first few pc battles. keeps members encouraged. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati

Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 58	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:02:00 - [11] - Quote Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support....
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:04:00 - [12] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 59	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:10:00 - [13] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? you get isk if you loose. What it is based on I am not sure. I know I won a match that was nearly a no show on their part and we got a mere 300k isk or so. On the rebound match were we lost but killed close to 200 clones I got over a million isk. If it's based on your losses or theirs I"m not sure. I did die a lot, but it was all in relatively cheap modified apex suits.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:19:00 - [14] - Quote Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 59	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:28:00 - [15] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Well as of maybe 2 days ago when I was last in one I got isk. If it's been patched since then shrug. You don't get salvage however if you lose, which is a shame.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:36:00 - [16] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Well as of maybe 2 days ago when I was last in one I got isk. If it's been patched since then shrug. You don't get salvage however if you lose, which is a shame. I'm fine with that. As Rattati posted, the loser gets chased off the battlefield. The victors have time to salvage the field. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 144	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:59:00 - [17] - Quote Can confirm as the losing side you don't even get salvage... Or isk,.. No point in trying to raid. "winning" an inch at a time
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 10:16:00 - [18] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: Can confirm as the losing side you don't even get salvage... Or isk,.. No point in trying to raid. So is this is a bug then which occurred when Warlords 1.2 deployed, or is it now by design? Larkson Crazy Eye is saying it worked for a PC about 2 days ago and you two are in the same corp. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 10:51:00 - [19] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:10:00 - [20] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 25	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:51:00 - [21] - Quote Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:59:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. lol ya know as soon the militia guys have beeing redlined everyone just switches out to a apex suit to reduce possible ISK loss to 0. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Count- -Crotchula Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:12:00 - [23] - Quote what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:18:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:08:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Yes, this is how it works. OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort.
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:23:00 - [26] - Quote Count- -Crotchula wrote: what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!! This is known as ignorance kids
Apocalyptic Destroyerr Shining Flame Amarr Empire 567	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:29:00 - [27] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. It really depends. Sometimes if you lose you get nothing, we le other times you can end up with an easy Mil.
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:30:00 - [28] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Yes, this is how it works. OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort. How can you expect people to compete when they don't squad up in pubs? They are playing people with over 2 years of PC experience on top of a huge SP gap. They probably don't have much ISK either. The results will be much like the AL All Star team showing up to a tee ball game against 5 year olds. There has to be some way to encourage people to strive for success in PC. Kid gloves are absolutely necessary or it'll be the same 100 or so players waving their d-swords around at each other until the game dies.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:41:00 - [29] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. It was fun, even if they ripped us a new one Right after the PC we were already capped again (100.000 CP), so it will not be the last. As you say, perhaps we learn a thing or two
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:44:00 - [30] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: ... waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother ... Thor Odinson42 wrote: ... the same 100 or so players waving their d-swords around at each other ... This doesn't sound like a very engaging end-game experience to me. I remember being excited when reading about PC 2.0 early on. I believed it was going to be different this time. I believed that the new model would make room for participation by smaller, historically non-PC corps. I believed that it would be their job to keep end-game play interesting and PC 2.0 moving and lean. I believed that they'd be encouraged to participate and rewarded for participation, as a model which encourages and rewards participation simply makes the most sense. I wonder, what happened? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:52:00 - [31] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Tebu Gan writes many words. Wasting your time is also a valid strategy. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:57:00 - [32] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Tebu Gan writes many words. Wasting your time is also a valid strategy. True, but not an effective one
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:01:00 - [33] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Tebu Gan writes many words. Wasting your time is also a valid strategy. True, but not an effective one We shall see. Players may use this corp in any number of ways. I have only shaped the system, but I do not direct the choices people make in the sandbox. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:04:00 - [34] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: ... waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother ... Thor Odinson42 wrote: ... the same 100 or so players waving their d-swords around at each other ... This doesn't sound like a very engaging end-game experience to me. I remember being excited when reading about PC 2.0 early on. I believed it was going to be different this time. I believed that the new model would make room for participation by smaller, historically non-PC corps. I believed that it would be their job to keep end-game play interesting and PC 2.0 moving and lean. I believed that they'd be encouraged to participate and rewarded for participation, as a model which encourages and rewards participation simply makes the most sense. I wonder, what happened? The constant hand holding and reservations in designing the game around team play. Two plus years and there still isn't a way for teams to persistently play together. We have these wonderful new mechanics, but the forum folks are still afraid of pushing team play. There is still fear of opening the ISK faucet and tweaking the incentives in pubs. PC is the complete opposite of every other mechanic in Dust, is it really a surprise? The squads of people that are good in PC scare off entire teams in pubs. People say, well it's a pub I'm not losing ISK. This mindset has fostered a playerbase almost totally void of any trace of a competitive nature.
Darken-Sol Intruder Excluder 2	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:10:00 - [35] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Order 66. Sounds fun Crush them
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP RUST415 421	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:16:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Yees, I was hoping something like this ... not only a 24 / 48 hours atack.. :/ -- Ecce Initio -- Tomate Pote -- *Respectu, Honorem, Value, Unionem*******
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:20:00 - [37] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Tebu Gan writes many words. Wasting your time is also a valid strategy. True, but not an effective one We shall see. Players may use this corp in any number of ways. I have only shaped the system, but I do not direct the choices people make in the sandbox. GL, just don't hold your breath. If you do somehow manage to make it work, more power to ya. Like I said, try one of the small corps, a lot of them tend to be quite disorganized, and to put it nicely,"good" in their own way! I've said in the past, the key to winning lay in big part on the guys you got running the show, the FC. You can take a great team and still watch them lose, throw in a good FC that pushes them to do what they need and they become a godly team.
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:21:00 - [38] - Quote Aidualc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Yees, I was hoping something like this ... not only a 24 / 48 hours atack.. :/ An hours notice with a set raid window timer (that occurs BEFORE the attack timer). That way you can bleed some clones up to the actual attack, and give the enemy a bit more notice to plan a little.
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:25:00 - [39] - Quote Count- -Crotchula wrote: what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!! Honestly there is no point..it is a waste of isk and you lose more than you gain if you use proto...I thought PC was where the proto was used but you got top players using apex suits Now Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:29:00 - [40] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Count- -Crotchula wrote: what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!! Honestly there is no point..it is a waste of isk and you lose more than you gain if you use proto...I thought PC was where the proto was used but you got top players using apex suits Now Agreed, it's quite literally becoming nothing more than a "glorified" pub.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:32:00 - [41] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Aidualc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Yees, I was hoping something like this ... not only a 24 / 48 hours atack.. :/ An hours notice with a set raid window timer (that occurs BEFORE the attack timer). That way you can bleed some clones up to the actual attack, and give the enemy a bit more notice to plan a little. Assume District X and Y have attack timers set at 23:00. If a Raider Corp knows that your A-Team is scheduled to defend District X at 23:00, they can potentially raid District Y at advantage (as your defense will be limited to your B-Team or your allies). This adds value to espionage, introduces tactical elements, and (perhaps most importantly) gives the non-PC corp a chance at actually inflicting casualties on an established "L33T" corp. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
KEROSIINI-TERO The Rainbow Effect 2	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:33:00 - [42] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: . . OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort. I'd say you are underestimating people's will to win and kill. Also, people tend to hate dying so that's why many tend to upgrade suits. Furthermore, according to my experience in playing in a stupidly OP team, the most expensive matches for that kind of team is the ones where stompers are redlining the opposition. Thirst for kills is so strong that stompers take stupid risks like getting redline turreted, tanksniped, sniped and most of all dying to redline timer. KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:37:00 - [43] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I'd say you are underestimating people's will to win and kill. Also, people tend to hate dying so that's why many tend to upgrade suits. Furthermore, according to my experience in playing in a stupidly OP team, the most expensive matches for that kind of team is the ones where stompers are redlining the opposition. Thirst for kills is so strong that stompers take stupid risks like getting redline turreted, tanksniped, sniped and most of all dying to redline timer. Not underestimating boredom in the least. Hell we team kill each other in no shows out of the sheer boredom of sitting in a match with nothing to do. Thing is, we have gotten quite wise to this tactic. If you want to try it, be my guest. We will without a doubt, pull BPO's and minimize losses to make sure you DON'T get anything resembling a payout.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:38:00 - [44] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: complete opposite of every other mechanic in Dust, is it really a surprise? The squads of people that are good in PC scare off entire teams in pubs. People say, well it's a pub I'm not losing ISK. This mindset has fostered a playerbase almost totally void of any trace of a competitive nature. That's a rather depressing narrative. I say we test it. Implement actual Raids and see just how clever, menacing and troublesome the "non-competitive" players can be. I don't believe that "non-competitive" players wish to be coddled; I believe it much more likely that they don't wish to waste their time and/or refuse to be bound to a schedule by a video game. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:43:00 - [45] - Quote There needs to be variation in the value of districts. This would encourage competition between the top corps for the best districts, and encourage lower level corps to train up for better rewards. The system at the moment encourages picking on the weak. More things to spend corp resources on would be good too, to go along with these more valuable districts. Things such as district defences.
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:44:00 - [46] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Aidualc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Yees, I was hoping something like this ... not only a 24 / 48 hours atack.. :/ An hours notice with a set raid window timer (that occurs BEFORE the attack timer). That way you can bleed some clones up to the actual attack, and give the enemy a bit more notice to plan a little. Assume District X and Y have attack timers set at 23:00. If a Raider Corp knows that your A-Team is scheduled to defend District X, they can raid District Y on short notice at potential advantage, as your defenses will be limited to your B-Team and/or your allies. This adds value to espionage, introduces tactical/strategic elements, and (perhaps most importantly) gives the non-PC corp a chance at actually inflicting casualties on an established "L33T" corp. Sure, would make more sense though to put the raid timer before the main attack timer. This way a successful raid could pave the way for a flip. And I'm not sure if you could have a raid and attack on the same district at the same time. I assume raids would have to happen outside of the attack timer with the code.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 292	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:52:00 - [47] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Aidualc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Yees, I was hoping something like this ... not only a 24 / 48 hours atack.. :/ An hours notice with a set raid window timer (that occurs BEFORE the attack timer). That way you can bleed some clones up to the actual attack, and give the enemy a bit more notice to plan a little. I like this whole idea except the reason for the 20 minute notice is because you want people to be a little surprised. I think 1 hour is too generous, but 20 minutes doesn't let you finish your current match sometimes. Lets go 30 minutes to get a nice even half hour notice. Also to tip the advantage for the defenders because this could get out of hand later, lets give them 12 and the attackers 8. That way the defending team has a minor leg up. I also think it should be Acq so neither team can really dig in like in Dom. Maybe a DK item would be to shutdown the raiding window so there is a little give and take there. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 292	Posted - 2015.07.13 14:58:00 - [48] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Assume District X and Y have attack timers set at 23:00. If a Raider Corp knows that your A-Team is scheduled to defend District X, they can raid District Y on short notice at potential advantage, as your defenses will be limited to your B-Team and/or your allies. This adds value to espionage, introduces tactical/strategic elements, and (perhaps most importantly) gives the non-PC corp a chance at actually inflicting casualties on an established "L33T" corp. Sure, would make more sense though to put the raid timer before the main attack timer. This way a successful raid could pave the way for a flip. And I'm not sure if you could have a raid and attack on the same district at the same time. I assume raids would have to happen outside of the attack timer with the code. You missed his point a little. If one district is being defended, then you attack a separate district which also could have a defense afterward. Then flipping the districts could be performed. This increasing the number of attacks could spread out the ringers and solve that problem as well. The A team doesn't know which district to defend. The first or devote themselves entirely to the second, stop the raid and hold the defense. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:09:00 - [49] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Suggestion: Implement Raids. * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set to correspond with daily attack timer * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 23:00-23:35) * If executed, Raid begins 20 minutes following execution (10 minute muster + 10 minute warbarge) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Assume District X and Y have attack timers set at 23:00. If a Raider Corp knows that your A-Team is scheduled to defend District X, they can raid District Y on short notice at potential advantage, as your defenses will be limited to your B-Team and/or your allies. This adds value to espionage, introduces tactical/strategic elements, and (perhaps most importantly) gives the non-PC corp a chance at actually inflicting casualties on an established "L33T" corp. Sure, would make more sense though to put the raid timer before the main attack timer. This way a successful raid could pave the way for a flip. And I'm not sure if you could have a raid and attack on the same district at the same time. I assume raids would have to happen outside of the attack timer with the code. You missed his point a little. If one district is being defended, then you raid a separate district which also could have a defense afterward. Then flipping the districts could be performed for either district. This increasing the number of attacks could spread out the ringers and solve that problem as well. The A team doesn't know which district to defend. The first or devote themselves entirely to the second, stop the raid and hold the defense. This is already done with mass attacks that stack timers, spreading a corps resources thin for battles. We don't need a raid to do what we can already do with normal attacks. Simply having raids that bleed clones would be enough with no special gimmicks needed.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:12:00 - [50] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Sure, would make more sense though to put the raid timer before the main attack timer. This way a successful raid could pave the way for a flip. And I'm not sure if you could have a raid and attack on the same district at the same time. I assume raids would have to happen outside of the attack timer with the code. Agreed. Can't have the same district being attacked and raided at the same time. Setting raid window equal to one hour prior to attack window ... Balistyc Farshot wrote: I like this whole idea except the reason for the 20 minute notice is because you want people to be a little surprised. I think 1 hour is too generous, but 20 minutes doesn't let you finish your current match sometimes. Lets go 30 minutes to get a nice even half hour notice. Completely agree. 20 minutes is a bit tight on second thought; we wouldn't want to encourage folks to leave battle. Updating to 30 minutes. Suggested Raid Mechanics * 8v8 Acq or Dom * 15,000 CP * Winner takes loser's losses; loser takes winner's losses * Wire each district with a "raid window" set one hour prior to daily attack timer (credit: Tebu) * Raids can be executed within the 1st 5 minutes of window (attack timer = 23:00; raid window = 22:00-22:05) * If executed, Raid begins 30 minutes following execution (credit: Balistyc) * On execution, Raiders and Defenders receive corp-wide notification from NPC. For example: - "[Insert Corp Name] warbarges inbound! ETA 23:55. Defend: System X - Planet Y - District Z. - "Warbarges outbound for [Insert Corp Name], ETA 23:55. Target: System X - Planet Y - District Z. * On Raider Victory, % of District clone reserves are "stolen"; Isk proceeds redistributed by CP contribution * On Raider Loss, Raider Corp cannot raid districts belonging to victorious Defender corp for 48 hours Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:17:00 - [51] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Maybe a DK item would be to shutdown the raiding window so there is a little give and take there. Love this idea! Also love the concept of "strategic items" being sold via DK Market. Are you thinking this "Raid Screen" should render a district immune to raids permanently or should it be a consumable item (i.e. immune to raids for, say, 48 hours)? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aidualc LATINOS KILLERS CORP RUST415 423	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:33:00 - [52] - Quote Yeap, 30min ... is a good time for a "raid battle" preparation, Domination could be the game mode... and you only need strategy to defend one objetive.. not all the logistic for 4 - 5 objetives. And now with the platoons even random berries could go to the "domination" battle. 100 vs 100 clones. no counter atack 16 vs 16 to get fun... Raider winner stole 100 clones to the district and can be selled with CP (so you need a former cop to do that) Defender Winner keeps the loosers clones and 48 hours of protection... (district Lock only for Riders, not PC atacks) -- Ecce Initio -- Tomate Pote -- *Respectu, Honorem, Value, Unionem*******
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:41:00 - [53] - Quote Aidualc wrote: Yeap, 30min ... is a good time for a "raid battle" preparation, Domination could be the game mode... Between the modes of Acq or Dom, I say we let the Devs pick the one which is least likely to lag. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:45:00 - [54] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aidualc wrote: Yeap, 30min ... is a good time for a "raid battle" preparation, Domination could be the game mode... Between the modes of Acq or Dom, I say we let the Devs pick the one which is least likely to lag. Dom.. Acq can be camped by tanks in their redline Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 15:50:00 - [55] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: complete opposite of every other mechanic in Dust, is it really a surprise? The squads of people that are good in PC scare off entire teams in pubs. People say, well it's a pub I'm not losing ISK. This mindset has fostered a playerbase almost totally void of any trace of a competitive nature. That's a rather depressing narrative. I say we test it. Implement actual Raids and see just how clever, menacing and troublesome the "non-competitive" players can be. I don't believe that "non-competitive" players wish to be coddled; I believe it much more likely that they simply don't wish to waste time and effort. Yet people play pub after pub from the redline. I can't think of anything that's more of a waste of time and effort in Dust.
Scheneighnay McBob Penumbra or something 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 17:31:00 - [56] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. I thought raids were supposed to be a thing. With the system you're describing, that's not possible. The anti-tunnel snake taskforce has assembled
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 18:19:00 - [57] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. I thought raids were supposed to be a thing. With the system you're describing, that's not possible. Sure it is, yr supposed to run MLT / BPO and hope that they run proto then proceed to kill them. Makes for some AWESOME game play. Non PC players cried with joy when this was announced, so it must be great! Yea yea, still bitter over this. It's just such an awful idea for what supposed to be the most expensive game mode. Boiled it down to a crap show is all it did. Anyhow, previously, losers got absolutely nothing from a loss. Be happy you get rewarded at all just for losing. H
SLENDER M4N Xer Cloud Consortium 710	Posted - 2015.07.13 18:22:00 - [58] - Quote I personally don't mind losing against NF. All I want to do is kill Kain ONCE and maybe Aeon or Anon if they're present. Get ready Jadek. Mrs. Menahiem is waiting!
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 19:20:00 - [59] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. You sure do put a lot of faith in that Skill > Gear theory. You can turn down any idea just by saying "Well, Kain Spero did passive ISK generation in PC". Try it with RoF mods.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 19:26:00 - [60] - Quote SLENDER M4N wrote: I personally don't mind losing against NF. All I want to do is kill Kain ONCE and maybe Aeon or Anon if they're present. Shouldn't be hard, I'm a very aggressive player and take a lot of risks/chances in order to put the hurt on the enemy. My fitting line-up (all are proto, all have flux grenades, and all have drop uplinks): Gallente Assault - Lightly armored with biotics and myrofibrils. Caldari Assault - Completely shield tanked with an Assault Rail Rifle, no grenades/equipment. Minmatar Assault - Super light shield tank with biotic focus. Gallente Logi - Precision enhancers with a light armor tank and scanners. Caldari Logi - Heavy shield tank with triage hives. Minmatar Logi - (I rarely use this fit and honestly don't even remember what it is) Amarr Logi - Imperial Flux Uplinks with heavy armor Minmatar Commando - Mass Driver / ACR with shield regen focus. Amarr Scout - Walking passive radar, designed to first find targets on passives with 18db precision and then scan them with Proximity Scanner. Only one you should really have any trouble with now is my Sniper fitting, which you're going to have to figure out yourself You can turn down any idea just by saying "Well, Kain Spero did passive ISK generation in PC". Try it with RoF mods.

Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 293	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:07:00 - [61] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Balistyc Farshot wrote: Maybe a DK item would be to shutdown the raiding window so there is a little give and take there. Love this idea! Also love the concept of "strategic items" being sold via DK Market. Are you thinking this "Raid Screen" should render a district immune to raids permanently or should it be a consumable item (i.e. immune to raids for, say, 48 hours)? I am thinking make the "Raid Screening" is a contract for a blockade and it has a timer that runs out with the contract. Say you only have enough DK to stop half the time available for raids, that is what you can buy in chunks. There should also be another DK item that increases the payout for isk in PCs by X%. Then the raid can be more valuable and this gives something for the raiding team to leverage the stolen clones to spend DK on. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 376	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:08:00 - [62] - Quote Slender if my PS3 didn't keep over-heating 3 minutes into a match I'd be there :( Oh well, least I have hentai.
SLENDER M4N Xer Cloud Consortium 710	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:10:00 - [63] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: SLENDER M4N wrote: I personally don't mind losing against NF. All I want to do is kill Kain ONCE and maybe Aeon or Anon if they're present. Shouldn't be hard, I'm a very aggressive player and take a lot of risks/chances in order to put the hurt on the enemy. My fitting line-up (all are proto, all have flux grenades, and all have drop uplinks): Gallente Assault - Lightly armored with biotics and myrofibrils. Caldari Assault - Completely shield tanked with an Assault Rail Rifle, no grenades/equipment. Minmatar Assault - Super light shield tank with biotic focus. Gallente Logi - Precision enhancers with a light armor tank and scanners. Caldari Logi - Heavy shield tank with triage hives. Minmatar Logi - (I rarely use this fit and honestly don't even remember what it is) Amarr Logi - Imperial Flux Uplinks with heavy armor Minmatar Commando - Mass Driver / ACR with shield regen focus. Amarr Scout - Walking passive radar, designed to first find targets on passives with 18db precision and then scan them with Proximity Scanner. Only one you should really have any trouble with now is my Sniper fitting, which you're going to have to figure out yourself Most likely your sniper fit is a Commando ck.0 with shield ex. and dmg mods right? Get ready Jadek. Mrs. Menahiem is waiting!
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:13:00 - [64] - Quote SLENDER M4N wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: SLENDER M4N wrote: I personally don't mind losing against NF. All I want to do is kill Kain ONCE and maybe Aeon or Anon if they're present. Shouldn't be hard, I'm a very aggressive player and take a lot of risks/chances in order to put the hurt on the enemy. My fitting line-up (all are proto, all have flux grenades, and all have drop uplinks): Gallente Assault - Lightly armored with biotics and myrofibrils. Caldari Assault - Completely shield tanked with an Assault Rail Rifle, no grenades/equipment. Minmatar Assault - Super light shield tank with biotic focus. Gallente Logi - Precision enhancers with a light armor tank and scanners. Caldari Logi - Heavy shield tank with triage hives. Minmatar Logi - (I rarely use this fit and honestly don't even remember what it is) Amarr Logi - Imperial Flux Uplinks with heavy armor Minmatar Commando - Mass Driver / ACR with shield regen focus. Amarr Scout - Walking passive radar, designed to first find targets on passives with 18db precision and then scan them with Proximity Scanner. Only one you should really have any trouble with now is my Sniper fitting, which you're going to have to figure out yourself Most likely your sniper fit is a Commando ck.0 with shield ex. and dmg mods right? Super wrong! I don't even have the Caldari Heavy Frames skill unlocked! You can turn down any idea just by saying "Well, Kain Spero did passive ISK generation in PC". Try it with RoF mods.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 293	Posted - 2015.07.13 20:14:00 - [65] - Quote SLENDER M4N wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: SLENDER M4N wrote: I personally don't mind losing against NF. All I want to do is kill Kain ONCE and maybe Aeon or Anon if they're present. Shouldn't be hard, I'm a very aggressive player and take a lot of risks/chances in order to put the hurt on the enemy. My fitting line-up (all are proto, all have flux grenades, and all have drop uplinks): Gallente Assault - Lightly armored with biotics and myrofibrils. Caldari Assault - Completely shield tanked with an Assault Rail Rifle, no grenades/equipment. Minmatar Assault - Super light shield tank with biotic focus. Gallente Logi - Precision enhancers with a light armor tank and scanners. Caldari Logi - Heavy shield tank with triage hives. Minmatar Logi - (I rarely use this fit and honestly don't even remember what it is) Amarr Logi - Imperial Flux Uplinks with heavy armor Minmatar Commando - Mass Driver / ACR with shield regen focus. Amarr Scout - Walking passive radar, designed to first find targets on passives with 18db precision and then scan them with Proximity Scanner. Only one you should really have any trouble with now is my Sniper fitting, which you're going to have to figure out yourself Most likely your sniper fit is a Commando ck.0 with shield ex. and dmg mods right? Why waste slots on extenders on a sniper? Probably ck.o dmg mod, 1 myofib for position. Damp lows "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
SLENDER M4N Xer Cloud Consortium 712	Posted - 2015.07.13 21:08:00 - [66] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Slender if my PS3 didn't keep over-heating 3 minutes into a match I'd be there :( Oh well, least I have hentai. I understand senpai But man hentai is waay better! Get ready Jadek. Mrs. Menahiem is waiting!
Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 21:41:00 - [67] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! How dare teams without 16 people at 25m+ SP, full proto, and a 65+% win ratio expect mechanics that allow them to recoup some of their losses while trying to move into PC! You're absolutely right, PC should consist of barely a handful of vets who own all of Molden Heath and never train anyone. We should go back to the old passive ISK faucets since clearly the reason there's no activity is because there's "no incentive" to play PC. That's the only way to return PC to health, especially considering that it did so well at maintaining a community in the past. Have a pony
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:30:00 - [68] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: How dare teams without 16 people at 25m+ SP, full proto, and a 65+% win ratio expect mechanics that allow them to recoup some of their losses while trying to move into PC! You're absolutely right, PC should consist of barely a handful of vets who own all of Molden Heath and never train anyone. We should go back to the old passive ISK faucets since clearly the reason there's no activity is because there's "no incentive" to play PC. That's the only way to return PC to health, especially considering that it did so well at maintaining a community in the past. As for your first part, agreed, it can be useful but it only really works if the team puts in some effort. What I have a problem with is people actually going into the battle with the idea of capitalizing on this mechanic. In practicality it doesn't pan out. As to your second part, I said nothing of the sort. And honestly the "isk faucet" was before our previous payout mechanics time when we had passive isk generation. I prefered our previous payout system and why it couldn't be worked out to curb exploiting and maybe even benefit the losers I don't know. I don't mind the losers getting a cut of pay, but when you actually incentivize playing poorly or not at the top level of gameplay, I have problems. As is expected with our current system. And honestly, it's not PC players fault that we try hard in PC. Do you even know the sheer number of districts given away to smaller corps by big corps in PC with hopes they would come up in their own and give us some challenge. I know it's a rather large number, so there shouldn't be any excuses as the big guys up top are typically willing to help out. It's up to the small guys to put in the work and grow their power, not us. All I could ever say to those small corps trying to break in, man up or go home. If you want to win then go in and out with that mentality. This is new eden after all HTFU and welcome to the sandbox.
Balistyc Farshot MONSTER SYNERGY 293	Posted - 2015.07.13 22:58:00 - [69] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: How dare teams without 16 people at 25m+ SP, full proto, and a 65+% win ratio expect mechanics that allow them to recoup some of their losses while trying to move into PC! You're absolutely right, PC should consist of barely a handful of vets who own all of Molden Heath and never train anyone. We should go back to the old passive ISK faucets since clearly the reason there's no activity is because there's "no incentive" to play PC. That's the only way to return PC to health, especially considering that it did so well at maintaining a community in the past. As for your first part, agreed, it can be useful but it only really works if the team puts in some effort. What I have a problem with is people actually going into the battle with the idea of capitalizing on this mechanic. In practicality it doesn't pan out. As to your second part, I said nothing of the sort. And honestly the "isk faucet" was before our previous payout mechanics time when we had passive isk generation. I prefered our previous payout system and why it couldn't be worked out to curb exploiting and maybe even benefit the losers I don't know. I don't mind the losers getting a cut of pay, but when you actually incentivize playing poorly or not at the top level of gameplay, I have problems. As is expected with our current system. And honestly, it's not PC players fault that we try hard in PC. Do you even know the sheer number of districts given away to smaller corps by big corps in PC with hopes they would come up in their own and give us some challenge. I know it's a rather large number, so there shouldn't be any excuses as the big guys up top are typically willing to help out. It's up to the small guys to put in the work and grow their power, not us. All I could ever say to those small corps trying to break in, man up or go home. If you want to win then go in and out with that mentality. This is new eden after all HTFU and welcome to the sandbox. I don't mind the pay out system being approached slowly. PC payouts have burned CCP so many times, I understand the reluctance to make them too profitable with all the rigging that has occurred. I think when raiding comes into play we will see smaller corps work into the mix of PC due to the low risk, low organization, and some big guys will raid smaller corps "For Fun". Don't be surprised if the above person is in the "For Fun" group. The hardest thing for a new corp to do is get a solid FC. That job sucks!!! The only reward is maybe a little respect, but you shoulder a ton of work and blame. Anyone who says HTFU has never been a FC. you yell at your own team mates and are the jerk who has to keep everyone in line. No one likes that guy. Ask some of the best. There is a reason so many CEOs have to FC themselves. If you think you are helping a fledgling corp into PC, then teach them how to FC. Everyone knows Teamwork is OP. "Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!" Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 23:20:00 - [70] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: How dare teams without 16 people at 25m+ SP, full proto, and a 65+% win ratio expect mechanics that allow them to recoup some of their losses while trying to move into PC! You're absolutely right, PC should consist of barely a handful of vets who own all of Molden Heath and never train anyone. We should go back to the old passive ISK faucets since clearly the reason there's no activity is because there's "no incentive" to play PC. That's the only way to return PC to health, especially considering that it did so well at maintaining a community in the past. As for your first part, agreed, it can be useful but it only really works if the team puts in some effort. What I have a problem with is people actually going into the battle with the idea of capitalizing on this mechanic. In practicality it doesn't pan out. As to your second part, I said nothing of the sort. And honestly the "isk faucet" was before our previous payout mechanics time when we had passive isk generation. I prefered our previous payout system and why it couldn't be worked out to curb exploiting and maybe even benefit the losers I don't know. I don't mind the losers getting a cut of pay, but when you actually incentivize playing poorly or not at the top level of gameplay, I have problems. As is expected with our current system. And honestly, it's not PC players fault that we try hard in PC. Do you even know the sheer number of districts given away to smaller corps by big corps in PC with hopes they would come up in their own and give us some challenge. I know it's a rather large number, so there shouldn't be any excuses as the big guys up top are typically willing to help out. It's up to the small guys to put in the work and grow their power, not us. All I could ever say to those small corps trying to break in, man up or go home. If you want to win then go in and out with that mentality. This is new eden after all HTFU and welcome to the sandbox. I don't mind the pay out system being approached slowly. PC payouts have burned CCP so many times, I understand the reluctance to make them too profitable with all the rigging that has occurred. I think when raiding comes into play we will see smaller corps work into the mix of PC due to the low risk, low organization, and some big guys will raid smaller corps "For Fun". Don't be surprised if the above person is in the "For Fun" group. The hardest thing for a new corp to do is get a solid FC. That job sucks!!! The only reward is maybe a little respect, but you shoulder a ton of work and blame. Anyone who says HTFU has never been a FC. you yell at your own team mates and are the jerk who has to keep everyone in line. No one likes that guy. Ask some of the best. There is a reason so many CEOs have to FC themselves. If you think you are helping a fledgling corp into PC, then teach them how to FC. Everyone knows Teamwork is OP. The payouts burned CCP because they released the game mode with mechanics that were very unforgiving to say the least, it would cost 240 million ISK or more to take a district with clone packs. There was no other team deploy mode. People had 8 v 8 corp battles in beta, so the best players were already well versed in team play. There was plenty of incentive to play PC in the beginning, but it was near impossible to recoup your investment before losing your only district. CCP was asking people to grind for a month for enough ISK to purchase three clone packs and hope for a miracle. Now we have mechanics that create a LOT of room in Molden Heath and the initial district can be earned by only activity within a corporation. I have zero faith in the current player base to take advantage of this situation however. I believe they will complain about the PC corporations earning too much ISK without even attempting to participate in the gamemode (be it in actual PC battles or by contributing CP in a PC corp).

Leither Yiltron Molon Labe. 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 23:29:00 - [71] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: How dare teams without 16 people at 25m+ SP, full proto, and a 65+% win ratio expect mechanics that allow them to recoup some of their losses while trying to move into PC! You're absolutely right, PC should consist of barely a handful of vets who own all of Molden Heath and never train anyone. We should go back to the old passive ISK faucets since clearly the reason there's no activity is because there's "no incentive" to play PC. That's the only way to return PC to health, especially considering that it did so well at maintaining a community in the past. I don't mind the losers getting a cut of pay, but when you actually incentivize playing poorly or not at the top level of gameplay, I have problems. As is expected with our current system. And honestly, it's not PC players fault that we try hard in PC. Unfortunately you bore the brunt of a response to a variety of other, sometimes more extreme posts in the same vein that have cropped up repeatedly since keep-what-you-kill was first discussed. I think you've seen that the new system doesn't actually give incentive to play poorly, though. It will take time for people to try, and inevitably fail, to turn any real profit running terrible gear without a strategy. Once they do they're probably unlikely to return to that kind of play. Have a pony
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 01:39:00 - [72] - Quote New corps are unorganized. Nobody teach them what should they do in PC. It's like setting a fight between bunch of 'learn it by myself' players versus 'I am doing this since I remember' players. Add unfriendly mechanics to this and you get PC. Loyal to The State Official Caldari Commando User
D4GG3R 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 04:51:00 - [73] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Yes, this is how it works. OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort. I was running apex! So like 60k/16 I'm pretty plain. I watch anime for the boobs
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:55:00 - [74] - Quote screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus.
xavier zor Second-Nature Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 06:58:00 - [75] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus. Those players must not be Elite if they still need to farm ISK... Out of retirement notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 07:05:00 - [76] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus. Those players must not be Elite if they still need to farm ISK... why do you always like my comment and talk s**t? What you said made absolutely no sense. No they dont farm isk because they have been gone since early 2014 when DNS dissolved.
xavier zor Second-Nature Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 07:14:00 - [77] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus. Those players must not be Elite if they still need to farm ISK... why do you always like my comment and talk st? What you said made absolutely no sense. No they dont farm isk because they have been gone since early 2014 when DNS dissolved. Oh please, don't start -stroking; i like every comment. Before no-showing, districts gave passive rewards. That in itself was a MASSIVE ISK influx, boosting the economy. Elite players woud have been around then, filling their wallets. PC hasn't become sad (who the ** are you ringing for these days?) some battles are actual fights. You are wrong. Out of retirement notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
Kalante Schiffer Ancient Exiles. 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 07:21:00 - [78] - Quote xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus. Those players must not be Elite if they still need to farm ISK... why do you always like my comment and talk st? What you said made absolutely no sense. No they dont farm isk because they have been gone since early 2014 when DNS dissolved. Oh please, don't start -stroking; i like every comment. Before no-showing, districts gave passive rewards. That in itself was a MASSIVE ISK influx, boosting the economy. Elite players woud have been around then, filling their wallets. PC hasn't become sad (who the ** are you ringing for these days?) some battles are actual fights. You are wrong. i havent taken dust seriously since ESO came out a month ago. The only people i ring for is Cap Aq because they have been long time friends since 2013 (when PC fights were actual pc fights) None of this APEX/patty cake crap that i am hearing about.
xavier zor Second-Nature Negative-Feedback 1	Posted - 2015.07.14 07:31:00 - [79] - Quote Kalante Schiffer wrote: xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: xavier zor wrote: Kalante Schiffer wrote: screw proto then. From i hear APEX is the way to go and make profit! How sad has PC become. The place where the elite players used to play now turned into a circus. Those players must not be Elite if they still need to farm ISK... why do you always like my comment and talk st? What you said made absolutely no sense. No they dont farm isk because they have been gone since early 2014 when DNS dissolved. Oh please, don't start -stroking; i like every comment. Before no-showing, districts gave passive rewards. That in itself was a MASSIVE ISK influx, boosting the economy. Elite players woud have been around then, filling their wallets. PC hasn't become sad (who the ** are you ringing for these days?) some battles are actual fights. You are wrong. i havent taken dust seriously since ESO came out a month ago. The only people i ring for is Cap Aq because they have been long time friends since 2013 (when PC fights were actual pc fights) None of this APEX/patty cake crap that i am hearing about. my definition of a good fight is different from yours. Out of retirement notable people stabbed: musturd, kaizuka, duna, radar, tibs, killed again ADS pilot, knifer, slayer
Kaze Eyrou DUST University Ivy League 2	Posted - 2015.07.14 18:22:00 - [80] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Did anyone else see a paradox here, or is it just me? How is a non-district holding corp supposed to make money if they only inflict "some losses" while the loser gets no ISK? CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou Kaze's Helpful Links

Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.14 20:03:00 - [81] - Quote Kaze Eyrou wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Did anyone else see a paradox here, or is it just me? How is a non-district holding corp supposed to make money if they only inflict "some losses" while the loser gets no ISK? ISK is not automatically stipend. The ISK you make is awarded and divided equally based on the value of item loss incurred by the other team. The more proficient your team is in killing higher end suits and vehicles, the better the payout, Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Aramis Madrigal 0uter.Heaven 454	Posted - 2015.07.14 20:12:00 - [82] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: I'd say you are underestimating people's will to win and kill. Also, people tend to hate dying so that's why many tend to upgrade suits. Furthermore, according to my experience in playing in a stupidly OP team, the most expensive matches for that kind of team is the ones where stompers are redlining the opposition. Thirst for kills is so strong that stompers take stupid risks like getting redline turreted, tanksniped, sniped and most of all dying to redline timer. Not underestimating boredom in the least. Hell we team kill each other in no shows out of the sheer boredom of sitting in a match with nothing to do. Thing is, we have gotten quite wise to this tactic. If you want to try it, be my guest. We will without a doubt, pull BPO's and minimize losses to make sure you DON'T get anything resembling a payout. The two guys we lost in the battle mentioned earlier were TKs :).


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