DUST Search - Jadek is unhappy about PC Payouts

Tebu Gan wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

Loser gets no ISK.

Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally

That's how it should be and is as far as I know.

A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses.

Yes, this is how it works.

OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost!

Doing some quick calculations here.

300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player.

I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati!

In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point.

Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't.

Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight.

Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic.

And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort.

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Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 07:40:00 - [1] - Quote I assumed Rattati and team had made the change to PC payout with the "Keep what you kill' mechanic whereby it seemed even the losing team gets ISK for the other team's losses...which was meant to encourage raiding. I am finding it out now from Negative Feedback player this is not the case. A XERCC corp a member placed an attack order on NF. for tomorrow [July 14th 03:00]. The whole fight in militia suits against their proto suits for ISK payout is a crap-shoot. Still, if you're in corp and get into the PC battle, you get DK; win or lose. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199167 CCP Frame wrote: After lengthy discussions with the majority of District holders, we have decided to switch the reward mechanics to a new method, which has been previously discussed in the Features and Ideas Forums. This means that Team A will earn Team BGÇÖs ISK losses, split equally among Team A members, and vice versa. This means that District battles are no longer GÇ£winner takes allGÇ¥, making it viable to stick it out, switching to more cost effective gear and causing enough losses on the enemy to break even. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Darth-Carbonite GIO Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 2	Posted - 2015.07.13 07:58:00 - [2] - Quote Before PC Payout changes, battles payed well (5 million give or take) but passive farming ran rampant. Then CCP decided to move towards PC 2.0 in a haphazard and painful manner, eliminating the Farming, but also absolutely eviscerating payouts and removing ISK for clones sold. For a time, there was no point in PC battles at all as owning districts became a leech on corp funds rather than a boost. Quite a few players left, and the competitive landscape fell into stagnation. Removing nearly all forms of ISK generation months before implementing 2.0 and the active generation that came with it was one of the most unfortunate decisions CCP had made in a long time. Now though, while individual battles are not worth the effort in a monetary sense, owning districts most definitely is. Hopefully we will see a new generation of corps take advantage of the wealth available to them. YouTube Pink Scramblers!
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:10:00 - [3] - Quote I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:36:00 - [4] - Quote They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 340	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:36:00 - [5] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Why? Didn't you just say that 1 corps going into PC with militia against proto players, just for free dk. Expect more of that, apex/militia going into PC losing nothing/gaining free isk. I guess itd be an incentive to not no show. Hmmm. If that logics going into PC, id expect it to also go into FW. Ex. Players who try hard but still lose get a fair LP payout. not as much as the winner but still. Get some life in your hands.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:44:00 - [6] - Quote hails8n wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: I would like to see them follow through on adding payouts to the losing side as Frame discussed. Why? Didn't you just say that 1 corps going into PC with militia against proto players, just for free dk. Expect more of that, apex/militia going into PC losing nothing/gaining free isk. I guess itd be an incentive to not no show. Hmmm. If that logics going into PC, id expect it to also go into FW. Ex. Players who try hard but still lose get a fair LP payout. not as much as the winner but still. I'd wanted to see the meta encompass raiding to soften targets wallets. We are still paying CP to start a battle. CCP Frame's quote from the OP. "This means that District battles are no longer GÇ£winner takes allGÇ¥, making it viable to stick it out, switching to more cost effective gear and causing enough losses on the enemy to break even." Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:47:00 - [7] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. They still kept a payout of 200 DK even if you lost. Seems silly to remove ISK efficiency from the equation from the losing side payout if you're still going to add DK rewards. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Michael Arck 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:48:00 - [8] - Quote Well that sucks. Goes against the raid design. Is it a bug of some kind? Archistrategos / The 7th Prime / Selah *Where the fear has gone there will be nothing....only I will remain
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:58:00 - [9] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. Here it is. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=203528&find=unread CCP Rattati wrote: 2) PC battle reward: Winners get salvage reward based on both teams' consumed items, losers get nothing It never seemed right that the loser of a PC battle would get to salvage the battlegrounds, as they had been chased away. Now that both sides get to keep what they kill, it's only fair that the winners get more loot for themselves. This should prove a welcome boost to earnings and an incentive to win PC battles. Discuss! When he said this, I thought it only applied to the salvage table, not ISK payout. It's confusing when he stated this. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2790372#post2790372 Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 08:58:00 - [10] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: They had payouts for the losing side for a while and then took them away again. I disticntly remember a blue tag from ratatti saying there shouldn't be rewards for losing, amongst a PC thread but I can't be bothered to dig through the archives. They still kept a payout of 200 DK even if you lost. Seems silly to remove ISK efficiency from the equation from the losing side payout if you're still going to add DK rewards...if you're guaranteed a DK payout regardless of what you do that seem to encourage afk behavior in a PC. depends on how much one can actually buy with dk. that will determine whether it's worth going afk in a pc battle that already costs a good deal of CP already. also its a small consolation prize for new corps who might have lost their first few pc battles. keeps members encouraged. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati

Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 58	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:02:00 - [11] - Quote Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support....
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:04:00 - [12] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 59	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:10:00 - [13] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? you get isk if you loose. What it is based on I am not sure. I know I won a match that was nearly a no show on their part and we got a mere 300k isk or so. On the rebound match were we lost but killed close to 200 clones I got over a million isk. If it's based on your losses or theirs I"m not sure. I did die a lot, but it was all in relatively cheap modified apex suits.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:19:00 - [14] - Quote Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 59	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:28:00 - [15] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Well as of maybe 2 days ago when I was last in one I got isk. If it's been patched since then shrug. You don't get salvage however if you lose, which is a shame.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:36:00 - [16] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Jadek Menaheim wrote: Thank you. Now I am confused by all these conflicting reports about payout. Some are saying you get ISK, some say you don't get ISK if you lose. Well as of maybe 2 days ago when I was last in one I got isk. If it's been patched since then shrug. You don't get salvage however if you lose, which is a shame. I'm fine with that. As Rattati posted, the loser gets chased off the battlefield. The victors have time to salvage the field. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
NINEinch WEAPON WarRavens D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 144	Posted - 2015.07.13 09:59:00 - [17] - Quote Can confirm as the losing side you don't even get salvage... Or isk,.. No point in trying to raid. "winning" an inch at a time
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 10:16:00 - [18] - Quote NINEinch WEAPON wrote: Can confirm as the losing side you don't even get salvage... Or isk,.. No point in trying to raid. So is this is a bug then which occurred when Warlords 1.2 deployed, or is it now by design? Larkson Crazy Eye is saying it worked for a PC about 2 days ago and you two are in the same corp. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 10:51:00 - [19] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Till we find out if DK is worth anything or not, farming or not farming it isn't much of an issue. I will say expect a lot of one sided PC battles if DK is something good to have. Most corps that don't have a district, nor can manage to defend one if they did will just launch battles to earn DK knowing they will loose. It's only 25k command points to start a battle if you have no districts, something a decent sized corp can do with ease. More than worth it to earn 200-400 DK for two quick losses. Bonus ISK if you can manage to kill some clones on the other side with cheap shots, remotes and orbitals. Infact a militia group, mostly staying in the red line could farm more than a few kills if they had Eve support.... Can I get a straight answer. Under the current PC system, do you get ISK (even if you lose) from the enemy team's losses? Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK.
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 7	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:10:00 - [20] - Quote Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. Dust 514 Market Trello. The essential resource for trading in Dust.


CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 25	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:51:00 - [21] - Quote Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 11:59:00 - [22] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. lol ya know as soon the militia guys have beeing redlined everyone just switches out to a apex suit to reduce possible ISK loss to 0. Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
Count- -Crotchula Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 111	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:12:00 - [23] - Quote what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 12:18:00 - [24] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Tebu Gan 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:08:00 - [25] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Yes, this is how it works. OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort.
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:23:00 - [26] - Quote Count- -Crotchula wrote: what's the point of PC anyway other than to wave your **** around. Plus I'm sure almost everyone in PC now relentlessly spams officer's equipment, much like a pub match!!! This is known as ignorance kids
Apocalyptic Destroyerr Shining Flame Amarr Empire 567	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:29:00 - [27] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. It really depends. Sometimes if you lose you get nothing, we le other times you can end up with an easy Mil.
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:30:00 - [28] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Loser gets no ISK. Loser gets Winner "losses" in ISK, distributed equally That's how it should be and is as far as I know. A non-district holding Corp should make money off using a CP attack, using only militia BPO's if they manage to inflict some losses. Yes, this is how it works. OH had a PC battle (might have well been a no show) against a full 16 that literally grouped up in MLT gear thinking they were going to capitalize on this terrible "feature". 15 wasted minutes later, we come out victorious with a whooping 2 clones lost! Doing some quick calculations here. 300k/16, the enemy team came out with around 18K a piece. With our numerous kills, we managed to net 18k for our side a piece off BPO and MLT gear. And I'm not sure but the guy who lost 2 clones on our side may have been running a bpo, further dropping their payout to 1k per player. I find it quite pathetic how losing is encouraged with the intent of "Making Isk". Thanks for the crap shows Rattati! In anycase Jakek, it should be quite interesting for you. One, running all bpo and MLT, you will likely get redlined from the start. That or the only point you will hold is your home point. When the enemy team realizes you are running cheap gear and not trying to win, they will switch and do the same. At least some will and the rest will hang back just in case someone does try to hack a point. Look, even if you manage to kill 25 clones at 150k a pop, it will still only net you a payout with a full 16 of 187k. And that's assuming they run full proto the whole match, of which they likely won't. Sure I find this idea of "bleeding their wallets" neat, but it's just not practical. You simply won't make money in PC unless you own a district. You aren't going to bleed anything unless you risk something yourself. I've had payouts upwards to 2mil where both sides were putting up a good fight. Then we have these fights where people try to make money off of this mechanic that end up being a bigger waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother, but you will soon find out. Better off trying this on some noob corp in PC, NF will be wise to this tactic. And for flux sake, can you people quit trying to lose and actually give us a good fight, or just a fight period. Want to make isk, go play FW or Pubs like the rest of us and USE that isk to put up a fight in PC. So sick of PC anymore. Let's just go waste our time against someone that won't even put in half an effort. How can you expect people to compete when they don't squad up in pubs? They are playing people with over 2 years of PC experience on top of a huge SP gap. They probably don't have much ISK either. The results will be much like the AL All Star team showing up to a tee ball game against 5 year olds. There has to be some way to encourage people to strive for success in PC. Kid gloves are absolutely necessary or it'll be the same 100 or so players waving their d-swords around at each other until the game dies.
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 1	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:41:00 - [29] - Quote Jadek Menaheim wrote: Regis Blackbird wrote: Yes. Played a PC match yesterday (D-UNI's first for a long time), and lost badly We got no salvage, but we did get ISK. Dennie had to spend all those CP you all were making. Good learning experiences. It was fun, even if they ripped us a new one Right after the PC we were already capped again (100.000 CP), so it will not be the last. As you say, perhaps we learn a thing or two
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.13 13:44:00 - [30] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: ... waste of time for BOTH sides. I'm telling you right now, don't bother ... Thor Odinson42 wrote: ... the same 100 or so players waving their d-swords around at each other ... This doesn't sound like a very engaging end-game experience to me. I remember being excited when reading about PC 2.0 early on. I believed it was going to be different this time. I believed that the new model would make room for participation by smaller, historically non-PC corps. I believed that it would be their job to keep end-game play interesting and PC 2.0 moving and lean. I believed that they'd be encouraged to participate and rewarded for participation, as a model which encourages and rewards participation simply makes the most sense. I wonder, what happened? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)



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