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se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
   |
Posted - 2015.06.27 11:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
when using the rep tool you clearly know you need to find a suit with armour because shield cannot be repped.
i have a suggestion there could be a creation of a new rep tool or add multi functions to existing rep tools.
PROPOSITION: rather than repping shield (which would possibly be OP) the repair tool would decrease shield recharge delay and shield depleted times significantly. for different tiers the reduction would be significantly greater. (basically its like a regulator)
(theoretical) examples:
basic: 40% reduction
advanced: 60% reduction
proto: 80% reduction
(republic pro: 95% reduction)
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
4
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Posted - 2015.06.27 12:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why would you use it than?
Serious question: if it only makes Shields recharge slightly sooner, why use it over the WP factory that is also useful when the target is taking damage?
It is one of the problems of such a tool.
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 12:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Why would you use it than?
Serious question: if it only makes Shields recharge slightly sooner, why use it over the WP factory that is also useful when the target is taking damage?
It is one of the problems of such a tool.
well obviously there would be WP rewards implemented to reward users of the tool. for my proposition i would much prefer it to implemented to existing rep tool e.g the core repair tool, so you get all existing points and additional for regulating shields. e.g 10 points for shield regulation every 2 seconds that you are regulating the individual
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
866
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 12:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Or make a shield tool that reps in cycles and have the rep tool do the same. So instead of per second, it does the total at the beginning of a new cye
Wanna play eve?
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 12:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:when using the rep tool you clearly know you need to find a suit with armour because shield cannot be repped.
i have a suggestion there could be a creation of a new rep tool or add multi functions to existing rep tools.
PROPOSITION: rather than repping shield (which would possibly be OP) the repair tool would decrease shield recharge delay and shield depleted times significantly. for different tiers the reduction would be significantly greater. (basically its like a regulator)
(theoretical) examples:
basic: 40% reduction
advanced: 60% reduction
proto: 80% reduction
(republic pro: 95% reduction)
No it shoudl work exactly like the reptool adding a constant HP regen otherwise its going to be 100% useless. It should give less HP regen then the reptool cause once you gain shield HP the suits native regen kicks in just like with tanks and shield boosters. So we are looking at shield reptool HP regen+natvie suit regen. That way we have 2 philosophys when it comes to heavys.
Caldari= regen tank (rechargers+energizers)
amarr= bricktank (full plate fit)
A very good and balanced idea can be seen here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=196730
Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
|
Apocalyptic Destroyerr
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
421
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 16:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Never going to happen stop asking for a damn Shield Repair Tool. Start thinking of a Shield Booster Tool.
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Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
869
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 16:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Apocalyptic Destroyerr wrote:Never going to happen stop asking for a damn Shield Repair Tool. Start thinking of a Shield Booster Tool.
That's what he meant. No need to be pedantic.
Wanna play eve?
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TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet
RUST415
255
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 16:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:when using the rep tool you clearly know you need to find a suit with armour because shield cannot be repped.
i have a suggestion there could be a creation of a new rep tool or add multi functions to existing rep tools.
PROPOSITION: rather than repping shield (which would possibly be OP) the repair tool would decrease shield recharge delay and shield depleted times significantly. for different tiers the reduction would be significantly greater. (basically its like a regulator)
(theoretical) examples:
basic: 40% reduction
advanced: 60% reduction
proto: 80% reduction
(republic pro: 95% reduction)
No, not to mention how quickly shields recharge. Not only would you not be helping your team you'd get points similar to scanning. |
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 16:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
869
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 17:11:00 -
[10] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some.
You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them.
Wanna play eve?
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 19:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them.
The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection.
The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
Scheneighnay McBob
Penumbra or something
7
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 19:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Here's the thing: rep tools are meant for heavy fighting, which is armor territory, not for shields.
Triage hives, however, don't make sense. Caldari logis get a bonus to them, but caldari don't need armor reps.
Instead, triage hives should lower recharge delay and boost recharge speed while you're inside them.
That fits with the caldari fighting style that is siege warfare.
Not caring about KD
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Sicerly Yaw
Quantum times
405
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Posted - 2015.06.27 20:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Or make a shield tool that reps in cycles and have the rep tool do the same. So instead of per second, it does the total rep amount at the beginning of a new cycle
how about a tool that gets rid of the delay altogether and allows for the shields to rep at their natural rate all while increasing that rate by 5% 10% and 15% respectively
click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
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Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
871
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sicerly Yaw wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Or make a shield tool that reps in cycles and have the rep tool do the same. So instead of per second, it does the total rep amount at the beginning of a new cycle how about a tool that gets rid of the delay altogether and allows for the shields to rep at their natural rate all while increasing that rate by 5% 10% and 15% respectively
You would have to make it 30% 40% and 50%. Unless shield regen gets buffed cos to get decent recharge you have to use at least 2 slots. There is nothing wrong with a shield rep tool as long as it reps less shields and does it in a 2-3 second cycle. So at proto it reps 100-125 shields every 2 seconds or if a cycle can't be introduced half the values.
It isn't fair that they can't have one and armour can. Its hardly gonna be broken cos you can still put out more DPS than it can regen.
Wanna play eve?
|
Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
871
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Here's the thing: rep tools are meant for heavy fighting, which is armor territory, not for shields.
Triage hives, however, don't make sense. Caldari logis get a bonus to them, but caldari don't need armor reps.
Instead, triage hives should lower recharge delay and boost recharge speed while you're inside them.
That fits with the caldari fighting style that is siege warfare.
So does the rep tool.
Wanna play eve?
|
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
"Hardly" broken is broken. And broken things in here, when theyre broken, tend to be broken as ****.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:37:00 -
[17] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Here's the thing: rep tools are meant for heavy fighting, which is armor territory, not for shields.
Triage hives, however, don't make sense. Caldari logis get a bonus to them, but caldari don't need armor reps.
Instead, triage hives should lower recharge delay and boost recharge speed while you're inside them.
That fits with the caldari fighting style that is siege warfare.
I could see a shield regen modifier added to triage hives, it'd actually have to be less than what modules produce imo however since its effects would be stacking with the mods for the same thing that suits have on board. Last thing the game needs is CalMandos with the modified shields and regen of modified CalScouts.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
High quantity ammo availability would be a part of siege warfare, one would think.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
|
Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 20:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:High quantity ammo availability would be a part of siege warfare, one would think.
Everyone can allready carry 6 nanohives. No need for cal. logis and their silly bonus.
Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
|
Nirwanda Vaughns
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.27 21:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
,Shields arn't supposed to be repped. shield suits are designed, not for prolonged fights. but rather quick 'pop up shoot/duck n recharge' kinda fights. maybe if people used them correctly instead of thinking every suit has to be a full on GRRRR!! suit they might have a bit more luck.
Please fix my C-II hitpoints!!
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Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
4
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Posted - 2015.06.28 04:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Why would you use it than?
Serious question: if it only makes Shields recharge slightly sooner, why use it over the WP factory that is also useful when the target is taking damage?
It is one of the problems of such a tool. well obviously there would be WP rewards implemented to reward users of the tool. for my proposition i would much prefer it to implemented to existing rep tool e.g the core repair tool, so you get all existing points and additional for regulating shields. e.g 10 points for shield regulation every 2 seconds that you are regulating the individual
The issue is this though, assuming all WP rewards are consistent:
Would you rather use a set of equipment that restored health really fast to a stat that doesn't heal on it's own , even while the target was getting beat on, and that stat also is capable of getting higher EHP than the other side
or
Would you rather give the ability of Shields to restore their natural regeneration a little sooner?
Even worse is that if the Shield Tool literally is just a reduction on the target's stats, it requires people to work together in more ways than the Armor Tool does. The target no only has to have a fair amount of HP in their Shields, but they also have to have good Shield Regeneration stats which lowers their Shield HP. The Armor Tool has no such requirement; some targets are better than others but the Logistics person can just look at HP and go "300 Armor? Pass. 800 Armor? Let's go!"
Trying to figure something out to get Shield Tool to work and be worth using is difficult. I fail to see how "It just recharges Shields like a Repair Tool" is fine for the guys who do it with Armor but not for Shields. An Armor suit that runs out of Armor dies instantly. A Shield Suit that runs out of Shields dies almost instantly. With Shields naturally less HP than Armor, I don't see how having a slight HP buffer before dying when the Shields drop is an issue.
el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some.
So one side HAS to utilize cover and the other side may utilize cover?
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:,Shields arn't supposed to be repped. shield suits are designed, not for prolonged fights. but rather quick 'pop up shoot/duck n recharge' kinda fights. maybe if people used them correctly instead of thinking every suit has to be a full on GRRRR!! suit they might have a bit more luck.
So one suit has the ability to fight at close range, long range (use a long range weapon), has support of multiple different equipment, can utilize cover, and can also decide to give up EHP for the ability to Repair faster
The other is supposed to always fight at long range and use cover.
Do you see the problem here? Even with Shields "being used right!" they still don't end up being better than Armor "being used wrong!"
The concepts of Shields and Armor in this game are different than in EVE, more or less. Shields are meant to be "restores fast, lower EHP" and Armor "restores slow, higher EHP." This could work but there are currently too many balancing factors. Shields have no outside assistance from equipment while Armor does. Shields have multiple kinds of stats, skill points, and items to help them while armor only has HP and Repair, which makes Armor easier to utilize over all. Shield suits usually don't have that amazing of base Shield stats (depleted, recharge, HP/S.)
There are a lot of problems and it is a sticky thing to try to fix.
"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
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se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Here's the thing: rep tools are meant for heavy fighting, which is armor territory, not for shields.
Triage hives, however, don't make sense. Caldari logis get a bonus to them, but caldari don't need armor reps.
Instead, triage hives should lower recharge delay and boost recharge speed while you're inside them.
That fits with the caldari fighting style that is siege warfare.
heavy fitting there is a caldari sentinel with the intent and purpose almost identical to any other armour heavy. so why should it not receive help at doing its job? why is armour so over powered? why is shield neglected?
im sure even you yourself would choose armour over shield there needs to be a fabrication of balance where they are equal where you feel that even though i choose this type of ehp i can still compete with the opposing.
i know shields are getting a buff with the delay of 6 hp but i can hardly call that a buff every weapon does more damage than this it should be at least 30-50 at least then it can soak up 1 bullet.
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him.
shield at such an advantage why don't you give me a grenade type weapon which gets rid of all armour in 1 throw of any individual in a 5 metre radius. even then i don't think shield and armour will be on the same playing terms.
i don't care about war points neither i have no skills in logging not even 1 point in rep tool. i just see an area in the game which needs to be enriched and formulate an innovative proposition tor try and fill the gap.
if you cannot give creative and constructive criticism without labelling people who are forming together to create a better dust then i suggest you GTFO.
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
Nirwanda Vaughns
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:,Shields arn't supposed to be repped. shield suits are designed, not for prolonged fights. but rather quick 'pop up shoot/duck n recharge' kinda fights. maybe if people used them correctly instead of thinking every suit has to be a full on GRRRR!! suit they might have a bit more luck. So one suit has the ability to fight at close range, long range (use a long range weapon), has support of multiple different equipment, can utilize cover, and can also decide to give up EHP for the ability to Repair faster The other is supposed to always fight at long range and use cover. Do you see the problem here? Even with Shields "being used right!" they still don't end up being better than Armor "being used wrong!" The concepts of Shields and Armor in this game are different than in EVE, more or less. Shields are meant to be "restores fast, lower EHP" and Armor "restores slow, higher EHP." This could work but there are currently too many balancing factors. Shields have no outside assistance from equipment while Armor does. Shields have multiple kinds of stats, skill points, and items to help them while armor only has HP and Repair, which makes Armor easier to utilize over all. Shield suits usually don't have that amazing of base Shield stats (depleted, recharge, HP/S.) There are a lot of problems and it is a sticky thing to try to fix.
I don't have issues using my cal assault 'properly' keep at range with rails and blast a red dot or two. duck behind cover and allow shields to recharge, throw out a scan and pop your head back up to pop some more.
one mistake was moving the PG module to high slot. having them low allowed more variety and allowed a bit more flexibility. you could drop a PG mod in the low and put higher end extenders to give youa hitpoint buff for close range and the ARR, or you could have lower hitpoints and use a regulator and recharger and have shields fly back up from range. each race has their own playstyles, if the one you have doesn't suit you then look at other races/roles that do, or make themost of the suits you have.
Please fix my C-II hitpoints!!
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Armor players dont like change or god forbid competition from shield suits. Armor can just aswell utilise cover like shields and fight at long range cause nothing stops them from fitting a rail rifle. Its even worse cause armor can fight better at long range cause a proto amarr/gal. assault can fit tripple damage mods which makes them a better choice. They can aswell utilise armor repping hives to have a constant HP regen which outclasses any shield regen.
So armor can do the "shield suit" tactics more efficent like this:
-Ranged combat
armor suits can fit damage mods and a rail rifle making them instantly superior over the caldari assault
-Cover tactics
armor suits can utilise armor repping hives like the allotek hive which reps 40hp/s. Put down 2 and you have 80HP/s which outlcasses allmost every shield suit fit.
-Close range combat
not just that armor has more HP and more damage for close range fights they can aswell make use of precision enhancers where their 30m scan can pick everything up except scouts.
-WP farming advantage
some DOM maps cannot be won without armor heavys and logis and even if you manage to make a push you get instantly thrown off the point by a OB that one logi earned by himself (im looking at you 4000WP minlogis).
-higher HP and insane HP regen with a logi
how are bricktanked heavys that have a damage mod and a logi balanced vs a shield tanked heavy? The armor heavy has more HP, more damage and can be farmed by a logi for WP.
So now tell me where is the drawback of armor tanking apart from a movement penalty on plates? Cause i barely notice anything and even worse is that there is no weapon in the game (apart from massdrivers) that deals +20% damage vs armor. And we all know that massdrivers are useless vs sentinels due to their resistance vs splash damage.
Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
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se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:[quote=se7ensaints][quote=Joseph Ridgeson]Why would you use it than?
Serious question: if it only makes Shields recharge slightly sooner, why use it over the WP factory that is also useful when the target is taking damage?
There are a lot of problems and it is a sticky thing to try to fix.
well i would like to prove to you how unbalanced armour and shields are. i have an amaar assualt ak.0 i fit i can fit an armour repair rate of 32 hp a second and still have 600+ armour and have 250+ shields isnt that unfair.
yes i can fit an assault ck.0 with greater rep but then there is the problem of regulation which i do not have to worry about with an armour suit because armour reps constantly.
i know i have gone off topic with this statement
i remember when i first ever used a logi on my alt account and went to rep someone with shield i was incredibly shocked that it didn't help the shield individual as well as it did an armour individual its a tool supposed to help a team mate why should it only be usable on one. (note i don't mean working on both types of hp in the same way but giving both a benefit when someone uses it on a team mate)
in addition why is a minmatar equipment (minmatar as a race are more focused on shield) being beneficial to an armour based suit. that would be like the combat rifle being more effective against shields than armour where's the logic.
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:Armor players dont like change or god forbid competition from shield suits. Armor can just aswell utilise cover like shields and fight at long range cause nothing stops them from fitting a rail rifle. Its even worse cause armor can fight better at long range cause a proto amarr/gal. assault can fit tripple damage mods which makes them a better choice. They can aswell utilise armor repping hives to have a constant HP regen which outclasses any shield regen.
So armor can do the "shield suit" tactics more efficent like this:
-Ranged combat
armor suits can fit damage mods and a rail rifle making them instantly superior over the caldari assault
-Cover tactics
armor suits can utilise armor repping hives like the allotek hive which reps 40hp/s. Put down 2 and you have 80HP/s which outlcasses allmost every shield suit fit.
-Close range combat
not just that armor has more HP and more damage for close range fights they can aswell make use of precision enhancers where their 30m scan can pick everything up except scouts.
-WP farming advantage
some DOM maps cannot be won without armor heavys and logis and even if you manage to make a push you get instantly thrown off the point by a OB that one logi earned by himself (im looking at you 4000WP minlogis).
-higher HP and insane HP regen with a logi
how are bricktanked heavys that have a damage mod and a logi balanced vs a shield tanked heavy? The armor heavy has more HP, more damage and can be farmed by a logi for WP.
So now tell me where is the drawback of armor tanking apart from a movement penalty on plates? Cause i barely notice anything and even worse is that there is no weapon in the game (apart from massdrivers) that deals +20% damage vs armor. And we all know that massdrivers are useless vs sentinels due to their resistance vs splash damage.
in addition you also have to remember shield is the first line of defence against an attack armour is your last resort of defence if someone surprise attacks you with armour you quickly realise you've lost your shield but you have armour left to counter that person. with shield on the other hand you shield will dissipate your main defence gone and all you have is the little armour on your suit to keep you alive.
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
se7ensaints
The Rainbow Effect
Negative-Feedback
32
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 10:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:Bright Cloud wrote:Armor players dont like change or god forbid competition from shield suits. Armor can just aswell utilise cover like shields and fight at long range cause nothing stops them from fitting a rail rifle. Its even worse cause armor can fight better at long range cause a proto amarr/gal. assault can fit tripple damage mods which makes them a better choice. They can aswell utilise armor repping hives to have a constant HP regen which outclasses any shield regen.
So armor can do the "shield suit" tactics more efficent like this:
-Ranged combat
armor suits can fit damage mods and a rail rifle making them instantly superior over the caldari assault
-Cover tactics
armor suits can utilise armor repping hives like the allotek hive which reps 40hp/s. Put down 2 and you have 80HP/s which outlcasses allmost every shield suit fit.
-Close range combat
not just that armor has more HP and more damage for close range fights they can aswell make use of precision enhancers where their 30m scan can pick everything up except scouts.
-WP farming advantage
some DOM maps cannot be won without armor heavys and logis and even if you manage to make a push you get instantly thrown off the point by a OB that one logi earned by himself (im looking at you 4000WP minlogis).
-higher HP and insane HP regen with a logi
how are bricktanked heavys that have a damage mod and a logi balanced vs a shield tanked heavy? The armor heavy has more HP, more damage and can be farmed by a logi for WP.
So now tell me where is the drawback of armor tanking apart from a movement penalty on plates? Cause i barely notice anything and even worse is that there is no weapon in the game (apart from massdrivers) that deals +20% damage vs armor. And we all know that massdrivers are useless vs sentinels due to their resistance vs splash damage. in addition you also have to remember shield is the first line of defence against an attack armour is your last resort of defence if someone surprise attacks you with armour you quickly realise you've lost your shield but you have armour left to counter that person. with shield on the other hand you shield will dissipate your main defence gone and all you have is the little armour on your suit to keep you alive.
i wasn't even thinking about the triage nanohives thank you for reminding me about another thing in armours favour. your points are very precise and correct shields needs and even bigger buff than the one soon to be implemented in 1.3
@CCP Rattati
You better fix this game or Bendnova and be sliced and diced
ILL SLIDE TACKLE YOUR MUM
|
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.06.28 12:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Shields are high regen, lower hp. Armour are lower regen higher hp. There's no reason not to have a shield rep tool. Make it work just like an armour tool.
You could then improve logi bonuses. Many people want all logis to have a rep tool bonus, so they act like carriers in Eve. The problem is, what do you then do with the Min logi bonus? An explosive bonus on its own wouldn't be enough.
With shield rep tools we could keep current bonuses, and add proxy/remotes and shield rep tools to Min logis, armour rep tools to Gal and Am, and shield rep tools to Cal.
Perhaps make the Min rep bonus a little smaller for balance, since bonuses to both armour and shield reps would be very powerful.
This will greatly increase the utility of Caldari and Minmatar suits. Really there's no reason now why shields shouldn't be supported by teammates as much as armour.
What this would then produce, would be squads / corps with their own combat doctrines. A corp could use a shield doctrine and deploy to the city in PC all shield sentinels and shield logis, for example. This would give groups distinctive fighting styles much like in Eve. |
jordy mack
WarRavens
D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
576
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Posted - 2015.06.28 14:17:00 -
[30] - Quote
AHEM....
shield hardener tool.
works like a vehicle hardener, points generated per X hp deflected.
you would still be reliant on cover, keeping it different from armor tactics. but shield suits could stand and deliver some damage before taking cover and recharging.
Less QQ more PewPew
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GRIMm grin
Vengeance Unbound
RUST415
2
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Posted - 2015.06.28 14:35:00 -
[31] - Quote
Also the problem with just throwing down hives as a "siege tactic" 1 flux, what then? The hives are gone my shields are gone what armor do I have maybe a little over 300 depending on how it's fitted and that's almost instant death |
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 16:41:00 -
[32] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:High quantity ammo availability would be a part of siege warfare, one would think. Everyone can allready carry 6 nanohives. No need for cal. logis and their silly bonus.
So what? They still can't deploy more than the max of them at any one time wheras the Cals when deployed have bigger bubbles and work proportionately faster so one hive seems like more. Multiple hives? HUGE impact. So many of you keep discrediting the bonus when is actuality it's a solid, good bonus when used instead of cried about.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 16:44:00 -
[33] - Quote
GRIMm grin wrote:Also the problem with just throwing down hives as a "siege tactic" 1 flux, what then? The hives are gone my shields are gone what armor do I have maybe a little over 300 depending on how it's fitted and that's almost instant death
Throw another one down or spread them out so one flux won't destroy (the bubbles at pro are bigger than a flux, protip) or move your ass to a better spot. Part of siege is you control the traffic flow so if you're being fluxed you're probably not actually sieging you're just parked.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him. shield at such an advantage why don't you give me a grenade type weapon which gets rid of all armour in 1 throw of any individual in a 5 metre radius. even then i don't think shield and armour will be on the same playing terms. i don't care about war points neither i have no skills in logging not even 1 point in rep tool. i just see an area in the game which needs to be enriched and formulate an innovative proposition tor try and fill the gap. if you cannot give creative and constructive criticism without labelling people who are forming together to create a better dust then i suggest you GTFO.
I've been in DUST running all branches of Logistics from all of the frames at proto for a very long time. Is there room to improve? Sure. Are there constantly poor ideas floated out that get support by the masses? Yes. Do I think a shield repper is one of them? Yes. Will I continue to populate any and every thread on these forums to say so as I see fit? Yes.
Those who'd like to see repping bonuses spread thoughout the Logistics Class I would refer to Cross Atus logistics proposal which spreads all the currently exclusive bonuses across the class to varying degrees so as to create the performance bonus access you're looking for.
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CAPCRO Nomad.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:33:00 -
[35] - Quote
Meanwhile, quit trying to gimp my logi please.
Open-Beta Vet.
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Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
882
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:se7ensaints wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him. shield at such an advantage why don't you give me a grenade type weapon which gets rid of all armour in 1 throw of any individual in a 5 metre radius. even then i don't think shield and armour will be on the same playing terms. i don't care about war points neither i have no skills in logging not even 1 point in rep tool. i just see an area in the game which needs to be enriched and formulate an innovative proposition tor try and fill the gap. if you cannot give creative and constructive criticism without labelling people who are forming together to create a better dust then i suggest you GTFO. I've been in DUST running all branches of Logistics from all of the frames at proto for a very long time. Is there room to improve? Sure. Are there constantly poor ideas floated out that get support by the masses? Yes. Do I think a shield repper is one of them? Yes. Will I continue to populate any and every thread on these forums to say so as I see fit? Yes. Those who'd like to see repping bonuses spread thoughout the Logistics Class I would refer to Cross Atus logistics proposal which spreads all the currently exclusive bonuses across the class to varying degrees so as to create the performance bonus access you're looking for.
Regardless of whether or not you think it's a bad idea (which let's be real, it isn't) shields need a support equipment.
Why should only armour suits get a huge benefit from 2 pieces of equipment and shields nothing? Explain that instead of saying its a bad idea.
I would like all logis to get a bonus to all pieces of equipment however.
It makes no sense to have a suit that is supposed to be the best with equipment only be good at using one piece.
Wanna play eve?
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:42:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shields already benefit from having more beneficial modules, better regen times, and no movement penalties. Could the extenders use a buff? Yes, but thats a different thread.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
882
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 17:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Armour can use armour reps to get armour repair. I don't have to do that though if I have a rep tool strapped to my back.
So why can't shields get the same treatment?
Let's make it clear though that the shield repper won't be as good as the armour one otherwise it wouldn't be balanced.
Wanna play eve?
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:50:00 -
[39] - Quote
And lets be clear that I am less worried about the impact a shield repper existing will have and more worried about losing what is a good, productive bonus for my CalLogi in its current bonusing to hive use.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
And pretty sure all shields have regen regardless of module, which is another benefit to shields- repper built in already always.
Open-Beta Vet.
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
Rise Of Legion.
3
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Posted - 2015.06.30 17:52:00 -
[41] - Quote
Seriously for the 1000th time and for the love of god....
Remote repairing shields would NOT be in ANY WAY OP. Why on earth is there this myth that remote repaired shield would somehow become invincibility mode or something. Scramblers will still shred your shields even WITH a remote shield transfer on you.
No wonder this game has had so many 'bumps' in the road (as it were) we have had crazy DEVS that come out with stupid ideas before they decide to abandon ship.... and we have crazy players that spout rubbish all over the forums.
No wonder..
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 18:17:00 -
[42] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Seriously for the 1000th time and for the love of god....
Remote repairing shields would NOT be in ANY WAY OP. Why on earth is there this myth that remote repaired shield would somehow become invincibility mode or something. Scramblers will still shred your shields even WITH a remote shield transfer on you.
No wonder this game has had so many 'bumps' in the road (as it were) we have had crazy DEVS that come out with stupid ideas before they decide to abandon ship.... and we have crazy players that spout rubbish all over the forums.
No wonder..
hm... such a short memory for things that were probably great ideas on paper but were OP as hell in practice.
Open-Beta Vet.
CAPCRO Nomad.
DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR
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Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
882
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 18:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Seriously for the 1000th time and for the love of god....
Remote repairing shields would NOT be in ANY WAY OP. Why on earth is there this myth that remote repaired shield would somehow become invincibility mode or something. Scramblers will still shred your shields even WITH a remote shield transfer on you.
No wonder this game has had so many 'bumps' in the road (as it were) we have had crazy DEVS that come out with stupid ideas before they decide to abandon ship.... and we have crazy players that spout rubbish all over the forums.
No wonder..
It wouldn't be OP. It would need to be lower than armour because of how fast shields can rep. One modules can get you over 40 HP/s.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 18:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pretty sure consensus on the ScR btw is that its brokenly OP so the idea that we'll add elements that'll be balanced by virtue of broken elements is indeed forum rubbish.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 18:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:when using the rep tool you clearly know you need to find a suit with armour because shield cannot be repped.
i have a suggestion there could be a creation of a new rep tool or add multi functions to existing rep tools.
PROPOSITION: rather than repping shield (which would possibly be OP) the repair tool would decrease shield recharge delay and shield depleted times significantly. for different tiers the reduction would be significantly greater. (basically its like a regulator)
(theoretical) examples:
basic: 40% reduction
advanced: 60% reduction
proto: 80% reduction
(republic pro: 95% reduction)
There is a big problem with rep tools that only reduce recharge delay: since shield suits generally have pretty low shield regen by default (usually 25-35 or so per second, vs. 75+ hp/s from a decent rep tool on armor) shield users would then have to choose between fitting to take advantage of the rep tool, or fitting to have good ehp.
This isnt even possible for alot of suits (since shield regen modules are so absurdly expensive in CPU, only proto can really effectively fit to make this viable), and it does not match armor mechanics where you get a very high baseline rep from the repair tool that can be either enhanced by adding more rep, or adding more buffer in the form of armor plates.
Not matching mechanics is fine and everything, but you will need to make it so the rep tool buffs base regen by 50-100% to make it worth using at all and make it not require the target of the repper fit in a specific way to make things viable.
P.S. I dont really like % increases for the shield regen modules or for this repper, if I had my way they would be flat increases, which would make them more useful across the board except for suits with exceptional base shield regen like the cal scout. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Pretty sure consensus on the ScR btw is that its brokenly OP so the idea that we'll add elements that'll be balanced by virtue of broken elements is indeed forum rubbish.
Its absurdly OP on amarr assault and just mildly OP on everyone else. Which means when they balance it the amarr assaults are going to be salty as ****, or the weapon will be useless on any other suit. Good times. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him.
Calling it "more WP hydrants" is kind of misleading, its not about getting more WP, you can already get absurd amount of WP with the armor repair tools. This is about balancing shield meta game against armor meta game. Logis wont be getting more points, since this is an alternative to an existing mechanic (the rep tool), not an additional mechanic that will be in effect at the same time.
I dont think its too much to ask that people who want to run Caldari gear have an option like the rep tool available, even if its mechanics are slightly different. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:26:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:,Shields arn't supposed to be repped. shield suits are designed, not for prolonged fights. but rather quick 'pop up shoot/duck n recharge' kinda fights. maybe if people used them correctly instead of thinking every suit has to be a full on GRRRR!! suit they might have a bit more luck.
This philosophy doesnt work in practice, since with a triage hive or logi an armor suit can completely outclass any caldari suit at any range with any weapon.
So why ever use a shield suit?
Something has to be done to allow shield based fits to compete with armor based suits. The only reason to use shields right now is to add buffer onto a speed fit. |
el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 20:20:00 -
[49] - Quote
Vesta Opalus wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him. Calling it "more WP hydrants" is kind of misleading, its not about getting more WP, you can already get absurd amount of WP with the armor repair tools. This is about balancing shield meta game against armor meta game. Logis wont be getting more points, since this is an alternative to an existing mechanic (the rep tool), not an additional mechanic that will be in effect at the same time. I dont think its too much to ask that people who want to run Caldari gear have an option like the rep tool available, even if its mechanics are slightly different.
It is a new hydrant tho in the sense that with a shield reptool logis will sit and rep shields, gleaning wp, until the damage is into armor where they'll switch tools, sit and rep armor, gleaning more wp.
I don't think its too much to ask but when the answer consistently comes back as a no it is a bit much to just keep asking over and over. Especially when its in the context of removing something else that works fine.
The shield vs armor balance discrepency is purely hp, imo, buff those extenders and call it a day.
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CAPCRO Nomad.
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 20:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him. Calling it "more WP hydrants" is kind of misleading, its not about getting more WP, you can already get absurd amount of WP with the armor repair tools. This is about balancing shield meta game against armor meta game. Logis wont be getting more points, since this is an alternative to an existing mechanic (the rep tool), not an additional mechanic that will be in effect at the same time. I dont think its too much to ask that people who want to run Caldari gear have an option like the rep tool available, even if its mechanics are slightly different. It is a new hydrant tho in the sense that with a shield reptool logis will sit and rep shields, gleaning wp, until the damage is into armor where they'll switch tools, sit and rep armor, gleaning more wp. I don't think its too much to ask but when the answer consistently comes back as a no it is a bit much to just keep asking over and over. Especially when its in the context of removing something else that works fine. The shield vs armor balance discrepency is purely hp, imo, buff those extenders and call it a day.
Its not just HP, its fitting options, support options, regen disparity after the repair module buff, no tactical anti armor option, etc. There are a large number of problems with armor v. shield balance, and HP disparity and lack of any kind of repair tool like option is only two of many issues at play that make shields trash overall. |
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Reign Omega
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 20:43:00 -
[51] - Quote
I was toying with the idea of a shield hardener tool, a % increase to shield durability that increases by tier, but has stacking penalties for the number of tools active per target, or a capacitor limit that doesnt allow for infinite use (both should apply to armor tools as well). Even as a dedicated logi, I feel that armor reps, and rep tools fa4 outclass the shield, and should have some drawbacks. There definitely however needs to be some sort of shield augmentation that isn't reliant on modules.
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!! The Incursions are back... and they're golden baby!
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 20:52:00 -
[52] - Quote
Shields aren't trash. I don't think in all my playing time I've built a single fit that didn't have something on it for shields except the time I ran a (whatever)-1 without shields, got smoked quick and said, "well that was a dumb idea". They just aren't armor so the playstyle is different. Adding to the shieldmeta to make it more like the armormeta would be a homogenization, no? An "equalizing" that really is just a normalizing? You want to stand and brawl, get some armor. You want to hit and run go shields. You want a racial class but to play with a different style then mod it up but accept you aren't going to perform identically as the racial rooted in that style. You'll be competitive but not identical.
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 21:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
So why after all this time and after so many threads for a shield reptool hasn't anyone proposed that the existing tool just also apply a delay eliminator/slight regen booster at the same time as it reps armor? Did it come up and I miss it? Wouldn't that satisfy the shield support folks AND the no-more leashes crowd?
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el OPERATOR
Sinq Laison Gendarmes
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 21:30:00 -
[54] - Quote
lol did it get suggested and I plc'd it with my patented point-blank logic technique?
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CAPCRO Nomad.
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knight guard fury
Sebiestor Field Sappers
Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.06.30 21:32:00 -
[55] - Quote
its funny that in dust minmatar have armor focused repair tools but in eve we have more bonuses to shield repairs
Kin of the Vherokior tribe and warrior of the republic
Self proclaimed minmatar lore master
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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
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Posted - 2015.06.30 21:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Shields aren't trash. I don't think in all my playing time I've built a single fit that didn't have something on it for shields except the time I ran a (whatever)-1 without shields, got smoked quick and said, "well that was a dumb idea". They just aren't armor so the playstyle is different. Adding to the shieldmeta to make it more like the armormeta would be a homogenization, no? An "equalizing" that really is just a normalizing? You want to stand and brawl, get some armor. You want to hit and run go shields. You want a racial class but to play with a different style then mod it up but accept you aren't going to perform identically as the racial rooted in that style. You'll be competitive but not identical.
I dont want to homogenize the tanking styles, but seriously the shield playstyle is described as long range shoot and hide/run. But the thing is, armor suits are better at long range shooting engagements, particularly with support, so that leaves hide and run. I dont think HIDE AND RUN is a role in this game thats very fulfilling unless it somehow accomplishes something. Not only that but speed tanked shield buffer min assaults are better than cal assault at hiding and running. This leaves dedicated shield tanks with... nothing. They just ******* suck and are outclassed by everything. Shield needs to be improved so that it can do SOMETHING better than armor or speed tanks.
"Shields" can compliment any fitting, however Im not talking about just putting some extenders on. Im talking about dedicated shield tank fits. These fits are just globally, objectively inferior at everything to other suits. Period. Theres alot of reasons for this, and I certainly would like shield fittings to be viable, but they just arent.
Well. Credit where its due: if you are in a one on one situation, and the other guy is in a armor suit, and you have a shield suit, you will have a slight regen advantage IF you can disengage from the fight for the entire length of time you need for your regen to take effect and finish its work AND the enemy armor suit has no triage hives. Thats about it. That is literally the only nice thing I can say about shield tanking fits.
Its just not enough. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 21:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:So why after all this time and after so many threads for a shield reptool hasn't anyone proposed that the existing tool just also apply a delay eliminator/slight regen booster at the same time as it reps armor? Did it come up and I miss it? Wouldn't that satisfy the shield support folks AND the no-more leashes crowd?
I think Ive seen it suggested, but Im not going to go digging it up ;d |
Echo 1991
Dead Man's Game
884
|
Posted - 2015.07.01 00:59:00 -
[58] - Quote
knight guard fury wrote:its funny that in dust minmatar have armor focused repair tools but in eve we have more bonuses to shield repairs
I find it funny too. Though I got told that EVE mechanics don't work in dust because reasons.
Wanna play eve?
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