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Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
   |
Posted - 2015.06.30 18:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
se7ensaints wrote:when using the rep tool you clearly know you need to find a suit with armour because shield cannot be repped.
i have a suggestion there could be a creation of a new rep tool or add multi functions to existing rep tools.
PROPOSITION: rather than repping shield (which would possibly be OP) the repair tool would decrease shield recharge delay and shield depleted times significantly. for different tiers the reduction would be significantly greater. (basically its like a regulator)
(theoretical) examples:
basic: 40% reduction
advanced: 60% reduction
proto: 80% reduction
(republic pro: 95% reduction)
There is a big problem with rep tools that only reduce recharge delay: since shield suits generally have pretty low shield regen by default (usually 25-35 or so per second, vs. 75+ hp/s from a decent rep tool on armor) shield users would then have to choose between fitting to take advantage of the rep tool, or fitting to have good ehp.
This isnt even possible for alot of suits (since shield regen modules are so absurdly expensive in CPU, only proto can really effectively fit to make this viable), and it does not match armor mechanics where you get a very high baseline rep from the repair tool that can be either enhanced by adding more rep, or adding more buffer in the form of armor plates.
Not matching mechanics is fine and everything, but you will need to make it so the rep tool buffs base regen by 50-100% to make it worth using at all and make it not require the target of the repper fit in a specific way to make things viable.
P.S. I dont really like % increases for the shield regen modules or for this repper, if I had my way they would be flat increases, which would make them more useful across the board except for suits with exceptional base shield regen like the cal scout. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Pretty sure consensus on the ScR btw is that its brokenly OP so the idea that we'll add elements that'll be balanced by virtue of broken elements is indeed forum rubbish.
Its absurdly OP on amarr assault and just mildly OP on everyone else. Which means when they balance it the amarr assaults are going to be salty as ****, or the weapon will be useless on any other suit. Good times. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him.
Calling it "more WP hydrants" is kind of misleading, its not about getting more WP, you can already get absurd amount of WP with the armor repair tools. This is about balancing shield meta game against armor meta game. Logis wont be getting more points, since this is an alternative to an existing mechanic (the rep tool), not an additional mechanic that will be in effect at the same time.
I dont think its too much to ask that people who want to run Caldari gear have an option like the rep tool available, even if its mechanics are slightly different. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 19:26:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nirwanda Vaughns wrote:,Shields arn't supposed to be repped. shield suits are designed, not for prolonged fights. but rather quick 'pop up shoot/duck n recharge' kinda fights. maybe if people used them correctly instead of thinking every suit has to be a full on GRRRR!! suit they might have a bit more luck.
This philosophy doesnt work in practice, since with a triage hive or logi an armor suit can completely outclass any caldari suit at any range with any weapon.
So why ever use a shield suit?
Something has to be done to allow shield based fits to compete with armor based suits. The only reason to use shields right now is to add buffer onto a speed fit. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 20:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Shield repair tool as described already exists: Its called cover. Its everywhere, get in some. You are just being a ****. Shields NEED a piece of equipment to support them. The comment was ****-ish, sure, but as it is shields have 2 different modules for optimization (doing what the OP calls for in a seperate equipment) so really the only missing element is the discretion of the user ie. cover use and engagement selection. The rest of this is replogis not understanding that repping is only a fraction of what you need to be doing in battle. Theres plenty of work to be done, get to it and quit crying for more WP hydrants. When that shield frame drops into armor you can leash and rep him. Calling it "more WP hydrants" is kind of misleading, its not about getting more WP, you can already get absurd amount of WP with the armor repair tools. This is about balancing shield meta game against armor meta game. Logis wont be getting more points, since this is an alternative to an existing mechanic (the rep tool), not an additional mechanic that will be in effect at the same time. I dont think its too much to ask that people who want to run Caldari gear have an option like the rep tool available, even if its mechanics are slightly different. It is a new hydrant tho in the sense that with a shield reptool logis will sit and rep shields, gleaning wp, until the damage is into armor where they'll switch tools, sit and rep armor, gleaning more wp. I don't think its too much to ask but when the answer consistently comes back as a no it is a bit much to just keep asking over and over. Especially when its in the context of removing something else that works fine. The shield vs armor balance discrepency is purely hp, imo, buff those extenders and call it a day.
Its not just HP, its fitting options, support options, regen disparity after the repair module buff, no tactical anti armor option, etc. There are a large number of problems with armor v. shield balance, and HP disparity and lack of any kind of repair tool like option is only two of many issues at play that make shields trash overall. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 21:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Shields aren't trash. I don't think in all my playing time I've built a single fit that didn't have something on it for shields except the time I ran a (whatever)-1 without shields, got smoked quick and said, "well that was a dumb idea". They just aren't armor so the playstyle is different. Adding to the shieldmeta to make it more like the armormeta would be a homogenization, no? An "equalizing" that really is just a normalizing? You want to stand and brawl, get some armor. You want to hit and run go shields. You want a racial class but to play with a different style then mod it up but accept you aren't going to perform identically as the racial rooted in that style. You'll be competitive but not identical.
I dont want to homogenize the tanking styles, but seriously the shield playstyle is described as long range shoot and hide/run. But the thing is, armor suits are better at long range shooting engagements, particularly with support, so that leaves hide and run. I dont think HIDE AND RUN is a role in this game thats very fulfilling unless it somehow accomplishes something. Not only that but speed tanked shield buffer min assaults are better than cal assault at hiding and running. This leaves dedicated shield tanks with... nothing. They just ******* suck and are outclassed by everything. Shield needs to be improved so that it can do SOMETHING better than armor or speed tanks.
"Shields" can compliment any fitting, however Im not talking about just putting some extenders on. Im talking about dedicated shield tank fits. These fits are just globally, objectively inferior at everything to other suits. Period. Theres alot of reasons for this, and I certainly would like shield fittings to be viable, but they just arent.
Well. Credit where its due: if you are in a one on one situation, and the other guy is in a armor suit, and you have a shield suit, you will have a slight regen advantage IF you can disengage from the fight for the entire length of time you need for your regen to take effect and finish its work AND the enemy armor suit has no triage hives. Thats about it. That is literally the only nice thing I can say about shield tanking fits.
Its just not enough. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
839
|
Posted - 2015.06.30 21:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:So why after all this time and after so many threads for a shield reptool hasn't anyone proposed that the existing tool just also apply a delay eliminator/slight regen booster at the same time as it reps armor? Did it come up and I miss it? Wouldn't that satisfy the shield support folks AND the no-more leashes crowd?
I think Ive seen it suggested, but Im not going to go digging it up ;d |
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