This is foolish.

Assaults rely on killing ability, pure and simple. When engaged they grab cover, and shoot.

Commandos rely on their two weapons to take a target out before they are killed.

Scout rely on stealth, when engage they strafe to avoid their fragile frame getting destroyed.

Sents rely on raw HP, they rush when engaged.

Logistics rely on their killer. When engaged they can't really do much.

Now, crying about how you can no longer take full advantage of horrid hit detection does not work.

As far as the tiericide you're discussing, it is hard to say without everything laid out, plain and simple, but I think it is still shooting the load in the wrong direction. The stacking of plates without a real impact to overall speed decrease is a problem... pretty much, ferro scales. Not many non-gal or amarr assaults run regular plates, and even then, they don't have the speed currently to complain that they are too fast. The suits that will be hit by this aren't suits meant to be outright armor tanked... namely the caldari and minmatar, which only use armor because shields are to damn weak. The problem can be solved with a shield buff and an adjustment to stacking plates, making them more burdensome the more you put on.

As far as kincats are concerned, they are good if you aren't already being shot at... but they don't change survivability as drastically as strafe speed.

If assaults got a damage bonus to light weapons, I would be slightly more accepting, but would still be extremely worried without knowing the totality of the changes.

Fair points, and I completely agree, we have no idea how it'll ultimately play out so freaking out now is....well pointless.

Lets see if I can explain my thoughts clearly....

A dead Logi is a useless Logi. No amount of support ability is useful if you're taking a dirt nap, so the Logistics has to be survivable to do it its job properly.


Lets also take a look at what defense really means for an Assault player. What does defense actually buy you? It's time. The more damage you soak up, the more time you have to kill the enemy before you run out of HP. Basically when you think about it, whoever has the better ratio of defense and offense will win an engagement.

As a very rough example (just assume eHP here takes into account total damage received after mitigation from strafing, I'm speaking of defense in a very broad sense)

Player A
110 eHP
100 DPS

Player B
100 eHP
110 DPS

If these two met head to head, they would likely kill each other at the same time. Simple enough.

So current Assaults would be player A. With the proposed changes the total defense would drop from 110 to 100. However, if we give it a damage bonus, it would boost its attack to 110, and now the new Assaults would be like Player B, and thus overalll little net change in overall performance.

Lets also assume Current Logistics have 90 eHP (lower HP, slower) and 100 DPS (same as current assaults). Speed increase will bring them up to 100eHP but no change in DPS. So similar survivability to proposed Assaults.

Player C
100 eHP
100 DPS

So in this case, Proposed Logi (Player C) will still lose to Proposed Assaults (Player B) due to similar defenses, but inferior attack power since it will die before it can do 100eHP worth of damage.

So Net Result:
Logis are more difficult to kill, but still lose against an Assault
Assaults maintain similar levels of combat effectiveness by shifting advantage from defense and more onto offense.

Does that make any sense at all?

One person's track record does not outweigh the record of the whole conglomerate... if that were true, Enron would probably still be in business.

Without seeing everything completely worked out, I think saying that strafing speed will be maintained is hopelessly optimistic... I have yet to deal with Rattati yet, but I have a feeling the numbers and sayings won't translate into reality.

Excuse the tinfoilery, but we're just trying to point out flaws in the thought process that could be addressed elsewhere... Heim and I won't bj the opinion just because of who said it, and our points are valid and do need addressing... and not some handwaving rhetoric.

Does that make any sense at all?

That one person's track record in balancing DOES outweigh the history when that one person is the ONLY ONE LEFT doing balancing. CCP is not found guilty of committing accounting fraud or any other criminal activity; your problem with CCP is a matter of their reputation, but Enron's was a matter of legal problems (and legal problems aren't erased by fixing one's reputation the way Rattati did for CCP's balancing of Dust), so this Enron analogy you whipped out is pretty ludicrous, and its even more silly given how there was no figure analogous to Rattati that took over to rectify the wrongdoing (the company just filed for bankruptcy and liquidated its assets).

This is like a US American distrusting a British person because of past oppression from colonial days. Not all histories are equally relevant, especially when comparing far past vs recent past.

I often disagree with his decisions, but from countless balancing passes with hotfixes I have learned Rattati has consistently kept his word. He starts with proposals which he then submits to the community for feedback, and based on the feedback he usually adjusts it. Once everything is finalized, he posts an announcement about what is going to change, and his announcements do not lie, or in anyway try to misrepresent what he actually wants to do. This has been the status quo for many months now, and there is no reason to doubt this balance pass will be any different in regards to truthfulness. This is not to say that the plans in regard to the assault speeds are finalized, because they're not, but at the current state of the debate, and Rattati 's position (which I should point out has gotten less severe for assaults) is no cause for this ridiculous and irresponsible panic-mongering I'm seeing.

Saying you doubt that even finalized numbers will translate into reality is basically an accusation of lying, and also unfounded by the history of his hotfixes. Even the old CCP balancing team never made it a habit of posting hotfix notes and patch notes that were blatantly untrue (and if they are wrong by accidents due to bugs, they try and fix it). I get being a disillusioned veteran (which I am), but this is just unfounded BS.

Walking speed reduction for assaults necessitating the complete removal of assaults is NOT a valid point, and frankly is a wild and frankly absurd leap in logic.

I'm out of this paranoid thread. Peace.

Pokey, it does, but I think it is still missing the point. I agree with your points, but I think there are issues you aren't addressing... now please excuse my brevity as I am about to leave work, but I felt I needed to toss this out there for you to think about (and I hate letting a good conversation die due to lack of repeated engagement)...

We are discussing all assaults as if they are one thing. They aren't. Once again, we have to look at them individually and who the nerf will hit the most... the real survivability of the already lowest ehp in class min assault and next to lowest, cal assault (considering the higher shield is less effective than higher armor), will be hit the hardest by this proposed change. I hate to harp on it, but the change can be done without altering the speeds of these suits...

Also, I think the discussion is worth having. We are all, essentially, invested in this... whether it be just time, or money and time, we are all invested. I think all of the opinions should be heard and discussed in a public forum like this, and I think critical analysis should be done... which it appears Rattati is performing, but I am not sure if he is just applying a band aid or fixing the problem... well, actually, I feel he is band aiding it, and altering the suits for the worse, but that is my opinion.

Well, in my personal experience thus far, the Minmatar Assault seems to over perform compared to the others, but again that's my anecdotal experience, I'm not sure what the hard data says about it. That aside, I feel the concept in general is sound, but if there are issues within the race after the fact, that can always be tweaked with changes to HP, fitting, ect. But again that's kind of one of those things you have to play test to figure out.

I mean here is the deal.....something had to happen to help the Logi's out, either it had to be more speed, or more HP. We've had More HP in the past and it was a disaster, so I think Rattati was trying to avoid that as much as he could.

I think a glaring issue is that the Assaults never really had anything unique about them aside from a really good HP/Speed ratio. Should they have gotten the speed nerf? Well, I personally like the cleanliness of the Defense to Mobility line, it provides a good baseline for future content, so in general I support it. However, if the Assaults are going to lose their really good Defense/Mobility ratio, they need something else that defines them and makes them unique, otherwise they'll just be a watered down version of some other role.

That's primarily why Im asking people "Lets assume the speed thing happens (cause it probably will). What would you like to see happen to the Assault to give it that unique and distinctive flair?"

---

Also I just have to say, among the sea of people going on emotional fits, I really appreciate your ability to have a calm and rational discussion. So thank you for that.

I had surgery Tuesday and still doped up, I apologize if I've been a ****, I'm listening to the points and yours are the best so far..just really frustrated and in pain

Both of which take high movement speed...

Well, in my personal experience thus far, the Minmatar Assault seems to over perform compared to the others, but again that's my anecdotal experience, I'm not sure what the hard data says about it. That aside, I feel the concept in general is sound, but if there are issues within the race after the fact, that can always be tweaked with changes to HP, fitting, ect. But again that's kind of one of those things you have to play test to figure out.

I mean here is the deal.....something had to happen to help the Logi's out, either it had to be more speed, or more HP. We've had More HP in the past and it was a disaster, so I think Rattati was trying to avoid that as much as he could.

I think a glaring issue is that the Assaults never really had anything unique about them aside from a really good HP/Speed ratio. Should they have gotten the speed nerf? Well, I personally like the cleanliness of the Defense to Mobility line, it provides a good baseline for future content, so in general I support it. However, if the Assaults are going to lose their really good Defense/Mobility ratio, they need something else that defines them and makes them unique, otherwise they'll just be a watered down version of some other role.

That's primarily why Im asking people "Lets assume the speed thing happens (cause it probably will). What would you like to see happen to the Assault to give it that unique and distinctive flair?"

---

Also I just have to say, among the sea of people going on emotional fits, I really appreciate your ability to have a calm and rational discussion. So thank you for that.

I respec'd last night and damn nearly didnt spec back into Assaults. I'll almost certainly be scouting in the future. :(

If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer.

For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit

Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly.

Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing

For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit

Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly.

Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing

I am way too good in an Assault M-1 than I should be when I use it. Its pretty OP.

IMO, I think a good step towards reducing the likelihood of slayer Logis as well as Slayer Scouts which I think could also make a come back, would be to have an increased armor plate speed penalty for Logis, and an even greater armor plate speed penalty for Scouts.

If X is the % speed penalty, I am thinking X+2% for Logi, and X+4% for scouts. Those are rough numbers that can be adjusted, but that gets my main point across.

For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit

Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly.

Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing

I mean, I had made a thread a long time ago with a spitballed idea of making Commandos more suppressive (higher magazine count, increased splash radius on mass driver for MinMando, stuff like that) and Assaults taking over the damage role but, yanno how people are.

It's actually sort of hilarious, when you think about it.

Assaults came first (one of the original four roles) and then Commando came in...... and no-one said, "What's the commandos role?" the question became, "What's the Assault's role?" So, the irony is that the Assault was here long before the Commando but the introduction of the commando is what, somehow, caused the Assault to lose it's dedicated offensive role.

Horrid hit detection or lack of accuracy?

Considering that I only run into hit detection issues when the characters are skipping all over the screen, leads me to believe the cries of bad hit detection only come from latency issues and not actual hit detection.

We aren't saying Dust will die or that the world is caving in, but what we are saying is that the viability of the assault suit will be lowered below that of the other suits in its class, and that the problems lie elsewhere... this isn't the nerf he is looking for, but it is sadly the one he has found.

I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts?

Posted in the Speed/HP Thread ...

Added "Heim's Model". Bridged the gap by adding HP to Logis and increasing Commando speed. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values.

> Google Doc <

Thanks man I'll give it a look tomorrow... I'm a bit under tonight