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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 18:38:00 -
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I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts?
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 18:53:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:Sadly that is basically what will happen with this purposed change... it will remove assaults... so might as well completely remove said assets, also Assaults will be useless because their speed will reflect how much defense they have?
Mandos will be better assaults than assaults will be...clean them out now, think about how much smoother the game will run
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 19:09:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:Sadly that is basically what will happen with this purposed change... it will remove assaults... so might as well completely remove said assets, also Assaults will be useless because their speed will reflect how much defense they have? Mandos will be better assaults than assaults will be...clean them out now, think about how much smoother the game will run While I agree that Commandos and Assaults fulfill similar roles, I have to ask Are you against the principle of basing defense off of mobility? If not, what do you feel needs to happen (assuming the speed changes go through) to make Assaults perform at the same level as Commandos in the slayer role, and superior to Logistics in the slayer role?
I feel mandos and assaults are to similar of a role so I'd rather keep the slower one as it gives people a reason to use scouts again for speed..the thing is assaults will have similar hp and movement and not a good bonus nor a second weapon so mandos will be taking the "slayer" role..I just thought why not combine the two similar roles to get 1 people are happy with..it adds the speed gap everyone wants, it would give them a dmg bonus and 2 primary weapons, I see this being the best solution that works for everyone
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 20:43:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:Aero Yassavi wrote:Assaults will still maintain their current sprint speed, just have lower movement speed. Which means lower strafing speed, therefore worse survivability. You don't lose a gunfight because of your hp, but because of how much you get hit vs how much you hit your target. Strafing is a vital tool in the bag of the assault... and it will now be given to logis and mandos... Except Logistics have lower HP and get hit slightly less than Assaults. Commandos have more HP but are larger and easier to hit. Wouldn't this mean similar survivability between all 3 groups?
Logis will be as fast as current assaults, mandos will be as fast as assaults with way better bonuses...CCP you think sprinting matters? If I want a fast hack I'll use my scout I use my assault for slaying as that's what we decided the assaults role was..If you're gonna nerf the assaults and buff everything else at the same time, just get rid of assaults you're gonna make them useless anyways So get rid of that wasted space
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 21:06:00 -
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Krixus Flux wrote:CCP just pissed off Heim.
"You know what, **** it!! You wanna gimp it?? Get rid of it!!"
I've been gimped for 2 years and now when assaults are in a good place they want to go and over do it...Like I said buff the others and leave assaults alone or nerf assaults and leave the rest where they are...it's gonna play out as a huge nerf that wasn't even needed. I'm trying to tell people what will happen but hey I tried to warn them
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 21:41:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:
As far as the tiericide you're discussing, it is hard to say without everything laid out, plain and simple, but I think it is still shooting the load in the wrong direction. The stacking of plates without a real impact to overall speed decrease is a problem... pretty much, ferro scales. Not many non-gal or amarr assaults run regular plates, and even then, they don't have the speed currently to complain that they are too fast. The suits that will be hit by this aren't suits meant to be outright armor tanked... namely the caldari and minmatar, which only use armor because shields are to damn weak. The problem can be solved with a shield buff and an adjustment to stacking plates, making them more burdensome the more you put on.
As far as kincats are concerned, they are good if you aren't already being shot at... but they don't change survivability as drastically as strafe speed.
If assaults got a damage bonus to light weapons, I would be slightly more accepting, but would still be extremely worried without knowing the totality of the changes.
Fair points, and I completely agree, we have no idea how it'll ultimately play out so freaking out now is....well pointless. Lets see if I can explain my thoughts clearly.... A dead Logi is a useless Logi. No amount of support ability is useful if you're taking a dirt nap, so the Logistics has to be survivable to do it its job properly. Lets also take a look at what defense really means for an Assault player. What does defense actually buy you? It's time. The more damage you soak up, the more time you have to kill the enemy before you run out of HP. Basically when you think about it, whoever has the better ratio of defense and offense will win an engagement. As a very rough example (just assume eHP here takes into account total damage received after mitigation from strafing, I'm speaking of defense in a very broad sense) Player A 110 eHP 100 DPS Player B 100 eHP 110 DPS If these two met head to head, they would likely kill each other at the same time. Simple enough. So current Assaults would be player A. With the proposed changes the total defense would drop from 110 to 100. However, if we give it a damage bonus, it would boost its attack to 110, and now the new Assaults would be like Player B, and thus overalll little net change in overall performance. Lets also assume Current Logistics have 90 eHP (lower HP, slower) and 100 DPS (same as current assaults). Speed increase will bring them up to 100eHP but no change in DPS. So similar survivability to proposed Assaults. Player C 100 eHP 100 DPS So in this case, Proposed Logi (Player C) will still lose to Proposed Assaults (Player B) due to similar defenses, but inferior attack power since it will die before it can do 100eHP worth of damage. So Net Result: Logis are more difficult to kill, but still lose against an Assault Assaults maintain similar levels of combat effectiveness by shifting advantage from defense and more onto offense. Does that make any sense at all? 
Yeah I just want to voice my opinion instead of waiting for it to happen then wait 2-6 months for a fix..my assaults have sucked for 2 years now it's gonna go down the crapper.
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.29 22:25:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Does that make any sense at all? Pokey, it does, but I think it is still missing the point. I agree with your points, but I think there are issues you aren't addressing... now please excuse my brevity as I am about to leave work, but I felt I needed to toss this out there for you to think about (and I hate letting a good conversation die due to lack of repeated engagement)... We are discussing all assaults as if they are one thing. They aren't. Once again, we have to look at them individually and who the nerf will hit the most... the real survivability of the already lowest ehp in class min assault and next to lowest, cal assault (considering the higher shield is less effective than higher armor), will be hit the hardest by this proposed change. I hate to harp on it, but the change can be done without altering the speeds of these suits... Also, I think the discussion is worth having. We are all, essentially, invested in this... whether it be just time, or money and time, we are all invested. I think all of the opinions should be heard and discussed in a public forum like this, and I think critical analysis should be done... which it appears Rattati is performing, but I am not sure if he is just applying a band aid or fixing the problem... well, actually, I feel he is band aiding it, and altering the suits for the worse, but that is my opinion. Well, in my personal experience thus far, the Minmatar Assault seems to over perform compared to the others, but again that's my anecdotal experience, I'm not sure what the hard data says about it. That aside, I feel the concept in general is sound, but if there are issues within the race after the fact, that can always be tweaked with changes to HP, fitting, ect. But again that's kind of one of those things you have to play test to figure out. I mean here is the deal.....something had to happen to help the Logi's out, either it had to be more speed, or more HP. We've had More HP in the past and it was a disaster, so I think Rattati was trying to avoid that as much as he could. I think a glaring issue is that the Assaults never really had anything unique about them aside from a really good HP/Speed ratio. Should they have gotten the speed nerf? Well, I personally like the cleanliness of the Defense to Mobility line, it provides a good baseline for future content, so in general I support it. However, if the Assaults are going to lose their really good Defense/Mobility ratio, they need something else that defines them and makes them unique, otherwise they'll just be a watered down version of some other role. That's primarily why Im asking people "Lets assume the speed thing happens (cause it probably will). What would you like to see happen to the Assault to give it that unique and distinctive flair?"
Also I just have to say, among the sea of people going on emotional fits, I really appreciate your ability to have a calm and rational discussion. So thank you for that.
I had surgery Tuesday and still doped up, I apologize if I've been a ****, I'm listening to the points and yours are the best so far..just really frustrated and in pain
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.30 01:52:00 -
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Pokey Dravon wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:
If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer.
For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit  Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly. Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing
Yeah it looks good, gal bonus should increase ar range =ƒÿë like 1% per lvl or something
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.30 04:44:00 -
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Adipem Nothi wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts? Posted in the Speed/HP Thread ... Added "Heim's Model". Bridged the gap by adding HP to Logis and increasing Commando speed. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc <
Thanks man I'll give it a look tomorrow... I'm a bit under tonight
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Heimdallr69
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Posted - 2015.05.30 19:44:00 -
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Adipem Nothi wrote:Heimdallr69 wrote:I've been one since mordu's through the ups and downs and now we are buffing other suits and nerfing assaults so I was thinking why not just remove assaults and combine them with mandos..scouts will have speed followed by logis mandos heavies...No more high ehp speed suits, I think this would add more diversity as people would then need to use scouts for speed and mandos for slaying..I was against this but now I believe it might be the best solution, scouts = low hp but fast, logis low hp speed at current assaults, mandos slower than logis but faster than heavies..thoughts? Posted in the Speed/HP Thread ... Added "Heim's Model". Bridged the gap by adding HP to Logis and increasing Commando speed. This page is all yours, so let me know if you'd like to tweak any of the values. > Google Doc <
I actually really like that one..I feel like with assaults gone the speed difference will make a nice effect..scouts will use speed logis will have their place then the slayers (mandos) won't have super speed and ehp where as assaults get rid of that speed difference..scouts fast low hp, logis not as fast low hp, mandos/heavies slower but better slayers..None of this 900ehp faster than scouts stuff anymore
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