DUST Search - Remove assault suits

One Eyed King wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

demens grimwulff wrote:

If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer.

For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit

Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly.

Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing

I am way too good in an Assault M-1 than I should be when I use it. Its pretty OP.

IMO, I think a good step towards reducing the likelihood of slayer Logis as well as Slayer Scouts which I think could also make a come back, would be to have an increased armor plate speed penalty for Logis, and an even greater armor plate speed penalty for Scouts.

If X is the % speed penalty, I am thinking X+2% for Logi, and X+4% for scouts. Those are rough numbers that can be adjusted, but that gets my main point across.


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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:49:00 - [1] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: Sadly that is basically what will happen with this purposed change... it will remove assaults... so might as well completely remove said assets, also Assaults will be useless because their speed will reflect how much defense they have? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 18:56:00 - [2] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: Sadly that is basically what will happen with this purposed change... it will remove assaults... so might as well completely remove said assets, also Assaults will be useless because their speed will reflect how much defense they have? Mandos will be better assaults than assaults will be...clean them out now, think about how much smoother the game will run While I agree that Commandos and Assaults fulfill similar roles, I have to ask Are you against the principle of basing defense off of mobility? If not, what do you feel needs to happen (assuming the speed changes go through) to make Assaults perform at the same level as Commandos in the slayer role, and superior to Logistics in the slayer role? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:35:00 - [3] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Heimdallr69 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: Sadly that is basically what will happen with this purposed change... it will remove assaults... so might as well completely remove said assets, also Assaults will be useless because their speed will reflect how much defense they have? Mandos will be better assaults than assaults will be...clean them out now, think about how much smoother the game will run While I agree that Commandos and Assaults fulfill similar roles, I have to ask Are you against the principle of basing defense off of mobility? If not, what do you feel needs to happen (assuming the speed changes go through) to make Assaults perform at the same level as Commandos in the slayer role, and superior to Logistics in the slayer role? I feel mandos and assaults are to similar of a role so I'd rather keep the slower one as it gives people a reason to use scouts again for speed..the thing is assaults will have similar hp and movement and not a good bonus nor a second weapon so mandos will be taking the "slayer" role..I just thought why not combine the two similar roles to get 1 people are happy with..it adds the speed gap everyone wants, it would give them a dmg bonus and 2 primary weapons, I see this being the best solution that works for everyone Do you think there is some way we can perhaps define Assaults as "Attack Role - Relentless Advance - Anti Infantry" and give them a lot of stamina, and then bonuses which appeal to killing infantry, such as damage and some of the existing perks (Gal/Cal need some work, Amarr and Minmatar are pretty solid for anti infantry) and then have Commandos be "Attack Role - Relentless Damage - Anti Vehicle", reload bonus is awesome on light AV weapons and boasts an effect of sustained damage plus the existing damage effect. Similar, but different enough to merit them being different roles. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 19:48:00 - [4] - Quote Given that the assault bonuses currently, are often lackluster, I could agree that they need a superior speed/defense ratio. However I also feel that if the assaults had better bonuses, it would be more acceptable to have this speed reduction. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:32:00 - [5] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: Aero Yassavi wrote: Assaults will still maintain their current sprint speed, just have lower movement speed. Which means lower strafing speed, therefore worse survivability. You don't lose a gunfight because of your hp, but because of how much you get hit vs how much you hit your target. Strafing is a vital tool in the bag of the assault... and it will now be given to logis and mandos... Except Logistics have lower HP and get hit slightly less than Assaults. Commandos have more HP but are larger and easier to hit. Wouldn't this mean similar survivability between all 3 groups? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 20:47:00 - [6] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: No, keep in mind that logis will have higher movement speeds (strafe speeds) than assaults making them less likely to be hit, and base hp will be negated by more overall slots and the cpu/pg to run them. Even if the power core goes into effect and pg/cpu is flattened across all medium suits, the logi will still maintain the slot advantage, allowing for equalization of hp. Mandos might be easier to hit, but hit much harder than those they are fighting, normalizing damage over time if the Mando misses more shots than its enemy. As far as I know, Logistics will have exactly the same number of total slots as Assaults. Additionally it is my understanding that Rattati plans to try to make the resources for Assaults and Logistics the same, and then use fitting bonuses to allow them to fit more weapons/equipment depending on the role. So If all of that holds true, Logistics will be incapable of having more HP than Assaults due to inferior base HP. Heimdallr69 wrote: Logis will be as fast as current assaults, mandos will be as fast as assaults with way better bonuses...CCP you think sprinting matters? People who fit Kinkats do. Curious, would you guys feel better about speed reduction if Assaults got a damage perk similar to Commandos? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 21:35:00 - [7] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: As far as the tiericide you're discussing, it is hard to say without everything laid out, plain and simple, but I think it is still shooting the load in the wrong direction. The stacking of plates without a real impact to overall speed decrease is a problem... pretty much, ferro scales. Not many non-gal or amarr assaults run regular plates, and even then, they don't have the speed currently to complain that they are too fast. The suits that will be hit by this aren't suits meant to be outright armor tanked... namely the caldari and minmatar, which only use armor because shields are to damn weak. The problem can be solved with a shield buff and an adjustment to stacking plates, making them more burdensome the more you put on. As far as kincats are concerned, they are good if you aren't already being shot at... but they don't change survivability as drastically as strafe speed. If assaults got a damage bonus to light weapons, I would be slightly more accepting, but would still be extremely worried without knowing the totality of the changes. Fair points, and I completely agree, we have no idea how it'll ultimately play out so freaking out now is....well pointless. Lets see if I can explain my thoughts clearly.... A dead Logi is a useless Logi. No amount of support ability is useful if you're taking a dirt nap, so the Logistics has to be survivable to do it its job properly. Lets also take a look at what defense really means for an Assault player. What does defense actually buy you? It's time. The more damage you soak up, the more time you have to kill the enemy before you run out of HP. Basically when you think about it, whoever has the better ratio of defense and offense will win an engagement. As a very rough example (just assume eHP here takes into account total damage received after mitigation from strafing, I'm speaking of defense in a very broad sense) Player A 110 eHP 100 DPS Player B 100 eHP 110 DPS If these two met head to head, they would likely kill each other at the same time. Simple enough. So current Assaults would be player A. With the proposed changes the total defense would drop from 110 to 100. However, if we give it a damage bonus, it would boost its attack to 110, and now the new Assaults would be like Player B, and thus overalll little net change in overall performance. Lets also assume Current Logistics have 90 eHP (lower HP, slower) and 100 DPS (same as current assaults). Speed increase will bring them up to 100eHP but no change in DPS. So similar survivability to proposed Assaults. Player C 100 eHP 100 DPS So in this case, Proposed Logi (Player C) will still lose to Proposed Assaults (Player B) due to similar defenses, but inferior attack power since it will die before it can do 100eHP worth of damage. So Net Result: Logis are more difficult to kill, but still lose against an Assault Assaults maintain similar levels of combat effectiveness by shifting advantage from defense and more onto offense. Does that make any sense at all? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 22:10:00 - [8] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Does that make any sense at all? Pokey, it does, but I think it is still missing the point. I agree with your points, but I think there are issues you aren't addressing... now please excuse my brevity as I am about to leave work, but I felt I needed to toss this out there for you to think about (and I hate letting a good conversation die due to lack of repeated engagement)... We are discussing all assaults as if they are one thing. They aren't. Once again, we have to look at them individually and who the nerf will hit the most... the real survivability of the already lowest ehp in class min assault and next to lowest, cal assault (considering the higher shield is less effective than higher armor), will be hit the hardest by this proposed change. I hate to harp on it, but the change can be done without altering the speeds of these suits... Also, I think the discussion is worth having. We are all, essentially, invested in this... whether it be just time, or money and time, we are all invested. I think all of the opinions should be heard and discussed in a public forum like this, and I think critical analysis should be done... which it appears Rattati is performing, but I am not sure if he is just applying a band aid or fixing the problem... well, actually, I feel he is band aiding it, and altering the suits for the worse, but that is my opinion. Well, in my personal experience thus far, the Minmatar Assault seems to over perform compared to the others, but again that's my anecdotal experience, I'm not sure what the hard data says about it. That aside, I feel the concept in general is sound, but if there are issues within the race after the fact, that can always be tweaked with changes to HP, fitting, ect. But again that's kind of one of those things you have to play test to figure out. I mean here is the deal.....something had to happen to help the Logi's out, either it had to be more speed, or more HP. We've had More HP in the past and it was a disaster, so I think Rattati was trying to avoid that as much as he could. I think a glaring issue is that the Assaults never really had anything unique about them aside from a really good HP/Speed ratio. Should they have gotten the speed nerf? Well, I personally like the cleanliness of the Defense to Mobility line, it provides a good baseline for future content, so in general I support it. However, if the Assaults are going to lose their really good Defense/Mobility ratio, they need something else that defines them and makes them unique, otherwise they'll just be a watered down version of some other role. That's primarily why Im asking people "Lets assume the speed thing happens (cause it probably will). What would you like to see happen to the Assault to give it that unique and distinctive flair?" Also I just have to say, among the sea of people going on emotional fits, I really appreciate your ability to have a calm and rational discussion. So thank you for that. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.29 22:39:00 - [9] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: I had surgery Tuesday and still doped up, I apologize if I've been a **, I'm listening to the points and yours are the best so far..just really frustrated and in pain Awww man, take it easy and feel better soon alright? Hopefully we can all come up with a solution which makes everyone as happy as possible. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:41:00 - [10] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer. For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly. Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.30 01:53:00 - [11] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer. For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly. Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing I am way too good in an Assault M-1 than I should be when I use it. Its pretty OP. IMO, I think a good step towards reducing the likelihood of slayer Logis as well as Slayer Scouts which I think could also make a come back, would be to have an increased armor plate speed penalty for Logis, and an even greater armor plate speed penalty for Scouts. If X is the % speed penalty, I am thinking X+2% for Logi, and X+4% for scouts. Those are rough numbers that can be adjusted, but that gets my main point across. Or just give Assaults the bonuses they need to be clearly the best slayers rather than punishing others for wanting to stay alive ^_^ "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.30 19:57:00 - [12] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: demens grimwulff wrote: If I had to take the hit, I would say more damage would be required... I, honestly, see the assault being lost in the sauce unless they impose something heavy on the logi suits... i.e. all equipment must be filled, and you're total pg/cpu will be lowered, or else we will, once again, see the rain of the logi slayer. For the sake of not filling the page with more quotes, I just grabbed this snippit Very valid points again. I will admit that I have not played Minmatar Assault in a serious capacity so my opinion on its history isn't worth much. Regardless, I don't want to see certain suits get screwed because of this, so future testing will see if there are outliers and I think adjustments can be made accordingly. Back to thoughts on bonuses in general, I kinda wanted to get your guys thoughts on this. I just kinda dropped some bonuses in there to get the conversation going, so if you have ideas, by all means speak up! https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NpPu4PQmGuUNa-WfSb-8krX7G7jMV8T6juaEwxP7_jM/edit?usp=sharing Maybe min assault gets 1% to explosive and 2 % to projectile, while commando gets the current bonus... something to add to the min assault, but not to make it OP with a bunch more damage on the explosives section... I remember the days of the flaylock and omg we don't need that back. I will be collecting my thoughts (once the haze rolls out of my head from last night) and get something up on the boards for an alternate view of the ehp/speed curve. Honestly I don't think more damage would make the Flaylock OP. It's still pretty skill-centric but I'd have to take a look at it again in the current meta. But yeah, do you see the general bonus structure I'm going for? Not only is is much more clean and uniform (which you know Rattati loves) but I think it adds some much needed oomph to the Assault's bonuses, and perhaps some tweaking to other roles to boost them up a bit. I've always subscribed to the fact that while base stats like speed and defense somewhat establlish a playstyle, it's really the bonuses that hammer in and establish exactly what that role does. This is why I'm in favor of the Defense-Mobility curve, but also think that Assault bonuses really need an overhaul because their current bonuses try, but really fail to establish that "THIS IS THE SUIT YOU USE TO KILL THE THINGS!" "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 6	Posted - 2015.05.31 01:41:00 - [13] - Quote demens grimwulff wrote: My post, on the matter, can be found here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2798637#post2798637 The reason why I am nervous about giving min assaults to high of an explosive damage modifier is two fold: 1) jump mods + extra explosive damage will lead to a really mobile, really lethal combination that could become pretty OP 2) I don't want there to be a perception of OP due to the damage increases, so I figured the staggered amount would be more likely to be accepted by the community (specifically since Min will get two weapon classes vs 1 for the rest) Fair points. I really hate the Jumping+Splash weapon crap we've been seeing. I mean to be fair the current Minmatar Bonus only applies to Projectiles right? Either way, the more I think about it the more I think the Assaults need some sort of damage bonus. I think simply giving them the +2% bonus in tandum with the speed change would be a good first step...it can always be changed later if it proves to be too much (though I don't think it will be). I mostly don't want every Assault player rushing over to Logi suits and having a repeat of last time, which basically ended in Logis getting castrated into the ground to prevent them from being effective in combat as a knee jerk reaction to prevent that behavior. Logistics need to be lethal, but Assaults need to be more lethal. I think Damage Output is going to be the most clean way we can establish this. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast & Blog www.biomassed.net