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Haerr Nos Nothi 2313	Posted - 2015.02.10 13:12:00 - [31] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Any way to have a more elegant solution that doesn't involve limiting the player economy down the road? Really all assests should be tradable. ^ What he said. +1
Haerr Nos Nothi 2316	Posted - 2015.02.10 13:28:00 - [32] - Quote Further what if corps who hold districts in PC are given access to a subset of missions that generate CP for the corp and componentes for it's players? Missions such as: within a week the corp as a whole must get XXX kills in PC matches with weapon Y? Edit: or rather 'corpwide for each X kills in PC with weapon Y' ... Oh can we have corp missions tied to FW and Raids too?
Stefan Stahl Seituoda Taskforce Command 974	Posted - 2015.02.10 17:53:00 - [33] - Quote Some conceptual stuff: - The fact that warbarge components can't be used to fuel PC is because warbarge components are not a measure of player activity. Switching to an alt, pressing "claim", going to assets, selecting the claimed components and going to "Send to" does not constitute player activity. - PC should be fueled by player activity to some extent however. Otherwise you just grant more power to those with more alts. - Daily missions as a source of "PC-fuel" is a better system as it depends on actual time played, and often enough on ingame performance. - "Command Points" that are generated through daily missions have so far been assumed to be non-tradeable - if I skimmed this topic correctly. They appear to be conceptualized as a corp-property, not an asset. - Alternatively - for the long term - one could conceive an alternative "PC fuel" as an actual asset that is generated through player activity, e.g. as a reward for doing daily missions or as end-of-match salvage as a reward for excellent performance. Since everyone, even non-corp members, generate this resource it would create an opportunity for trading this resource. E.g. if you want to make your corp PC-capable you could buy some of it from other players until you can hold districts yourself that may grant you some of that resource by themselves - e.g. as salvage after PC battles proportional to the amount of stuff destroyed. I'm posting this long-term concept - even though it will take a very long time to establish a functioning market - because it kind of reminds me how the tech 2 economy in eve works. As a 8 weeks newb capsuleer I happily scanned down sites and uncovered tons of tech 2 components whose actual relevance was way beyond my understanding, but I made some fine ISK out of it to buy more rigs of questionable utility. I was interacting with other players merely through a trade window, but it made me feel like part of the economy. That was a rewarding experience. If we could create a similar economy (blueberry makes PC fuel, sells it to corp for ISK, corp consumes it in battle, creates ISK from battle, buys more PC fuel) I think we'd improve Dust a fair bit. P.S.: Maybe in a later iteration of the warbarge system barges could be fueled by a better measure of player activity than daily logins. That would make the whole discussion here much easier. E.g. for every match above a certain WP-threshold you have a chance to receive unobtainium as salvage, which you then use to generate warbarge-components over time. Alternatively you buy your unobtainium from somebody else who doesn't care for passive bonuses.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2170	Posted - 2015.02.10 18:31:00 - [34] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. When people feel the need to farm alts to progress in something, you have it setup wrong. Alt farming is a result of you not making the warbarge progression reasonable. You should be asking 'why would people rather farm alts that progress normally', not 'how do we stop people from farming alts'. I haven't the interest in this game to farm alts, but with the progression being 'buy now or wait forever', I can hardly fault anyone for doing so. I'm with you on most things, but in this you are on the wrong side of history my friend. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Booby Tuesdays Ahrendee Mercenaries 1318	Posted - 2015.02.10 19:28:00 - [35] - Quote I think the main issue here is that a mechanic has been implemented that requires patience and time. People today have no patience, and don't remember what it feels like to wait for anything. The current generation is so used to having everything at their fingertips, every hour of every day, that the concept of something taking a couple years makes their minds explode. EVE has been around for 10 years? What would have happened to that game if you could max out everything in it in a year? Would you continue to play it? What would you work towards? How many games do you beat and keep coming back even though you have already accomplished everything? ( I can name maybe a handful? ) Dust is the test bed for Legion, and I'm sure CCP would like it to keep people around for more than a year, so they want it to take time to max things out and constantly give you something to work for. Is the current mechanic and amount of components produced where it should be currently? Nope. Can it be fixed with components available via salvage and simple crafting? Yep. Half-Assed Forum Warrior / Half-Decent Commando / Damn Good Logi / Matari Loyalty 7
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 256	Posted - 2015.02.10 19:54:00 - [36] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Any way to have a more elegant solution that doesn't involve limiting the player economy down the road? Really all assests should be tradable. Why? Because EVE? Honest question. You are basically saying "All games should have all assets tradeable all the time". Not to start a huge argument, and I still know this will flare up, but because EVE is not a reason. Especially with PSN accounts being completely different from EVE accounts, since, you know, they have to pay a subscription to alt farm. They shouldn't necessarily be different sir, the fact of the matter is that this game should be built onto the computer, I thought that was the end goal. Merging Dust into Eve should be part of the process of the warbarges not independent from them, Eve you can trade all assets, Dust none. Your CPM members have said as much, being able to trade components doesn't break the game, but having warbarges that function like a booster in eve without being able to do anything to your opponent's "booster" does. Its easy to say it breaks game balance but when you bring them into game the way you just did, it broke game balance. I applaud you giving ships to players but it is not functional, they have no combat capabilities and serve little purpose other than stated earlier in my post. Trading components should be the least of your worries about the warbarges. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 881	Posted - 2015.02.10 21:00:00 - [37] - Quote if only all this effort on stupid components and useless warbarges was redirected and focused on getting pve into the game. if only we could pilot the mcc. id end the matches real quick.
Avinash Decker Seykal Expeditionary Group Minmatar Republic 172	Posted - 2015.02.10 21:00:00 - [38] - Quote Components does not need to be trade to a main necessarily, although its more convenient that way; a player can just log in to an alt and donate .
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1406	Posted - 2015.02.10 22:23:00 - [39] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: I think the main issue here is that a mechanic has been implemented that requires patience and time. Or, it might be possible to bypass that by farming. That's what we're concerned about. You want mercs and corps running around with enough components that as a commodity they become worthless? Isn't that what happened to ISK? The issue is if you leave something open to abuse, it will be abused. If there are things that could be done to prevent it, if the general concensus is it is a problem and needs preventing, then I'm not sure what's wrong with discussing it. [edit] Having re-read your post, I think we might be on the same page ;-)
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4063	Posted - 2015.02.10 23:22:00 - [40] - Quote Lady MDK wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Neither is paying real money for the components playing a game ;). But it is keeping the servers online so that the game can be played (That being said refinements to the current component system are actively being explored). Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)

Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4063	Posted - 2015.02.10 23:24:00 - [41] - Quote Haerr wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Any way to have a more elegant solution that doesn't involve limiting the player economy down the road? Really all assests should be tradable. ^ What he said. +1 You are both smart lads, find or create a more elegant solution and link me on it I will be sure that our grand blue overlords see it Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4578	Posted - 2015.02.10 23:46:00 - [42] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: You are both smart lads, find or create a more elegant solution and link me on it I will be sure that our grand blue overlords see it Cheers, Cross Already done: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati, The more I think about it though the more it seems that it would make more sense to change the first slot on the barge to something that just increases your chances of getting warbarge components at EOM or increases the quantity when you do get drops. This would eliminate the passive aspect of barge generation, reward players for playing more, and allow players to pay to grind less. Last, it would kill off any issue regarding alt farming of components without limiting player freedom in the economy, which I think is going to become a truly key pillar of Dust once you all implement trading and simple crafting. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7757	Posted - 2015.02.10 23:59:00 - [43] - Quote Kain Spero wrote: Cross Atu wrote: You are both smart lads, find or create a more elegant solution and link me on it I will be sure that our grand blue overlords see it Cheers, Cross Already done: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati, The more I think about it though the more it seems that it would make more sense to change the first slot on the barge to something that just increases your chances of getting warbarge components at EOM or increases the quantity when you do get drops. This would eliminate the passive aspect of barge generation, reward players for playing more, and allow players to pay to grind less. Last, it would kill off any issue regarding alt farming of components without limiting player freedom in the economy, which I think is going to become a truly key pillar of Dust once you all implement trading and simple crafting. Would it be a problem to have components be manufactured based on a games played or in-game-time aspect so that it still rewards effort, but isn't necessarily chance and still allows noobs to be on an even playing field? There have been a lot of issues with some of the EOM salvage cough strong boxes cough and I don't want the WB to be subject to some of the same problems. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DJINN Jecture BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 256	Posted - 2015.02.11 00:36:00 - [44] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Lady MDK wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Neither is paying real money for the components playing a game ;). But it is keeping the servers online so that the game can be played (That being said refinements to the current component system are actively being explored). Cheers, Cross I wass under the understanding that my stack of monthly Eve Subs were doing that, well thats good to know at least there is a use for the unnecesary PTW factor being grossly abused by CCP in this case. *Promoting Teamwork, Join a Squad Today!*
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4580	Posted - 2015.02.11 00:50:00 - [45] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Would it be a problem to have components be manufactured based on a games played or in-game-time aspect so that it still rewards effort, but isn't necessarily chance and still allows noobs to be on an even playing field? There have been a lot of issues with some of the EOM salvage cough strong boxes cough and I don't want the WB to be subject to some of the same problems. I think it could work well if you could use the same mechanics that stop SP from being rewarded unless you reach a certain WP threshold to apply to warbarge components and then just have some minimum of components doled out each match. That drop amount or rate the is just modified by the first system's level. I'm not too concerned about CCP figuring out how they would need to modify the drop rates to reach a desired threshold of production. The salavge components (like melted heath shields etc.) seem to drop with a good bit of regularity. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 8647	Posted - 2015.02.11 02:33:00 - [46] - Quote Alright. I won't say "because of EVE". But I will say, "Because this is one of those crucial sandbox elements you guys keep mentioning". Which, it is. It doesn't have to 100% mimic Eve (though I'd argue that if you're going to make a game in the same setting it should at least be similar in theme) but you shouldn't restrict players because of something gimmicky. Which is the major problem there? The market, or the item? I mean, hell, some of us are still wanting a way to transfer Eve ISK to Dust 514 and vice versa. The argument that it hurts the economy is... Bizarre, because guys like Kain Spero do third-party transactions anyway. One way or another, we're going to get it, so why try to stop it? Same thing as the Warbarge components. If they can be traded, if there is a way with which to do it, than by all means why limit that? Because if you do, you run the risk of people trading ISK for Aurum with which to purchase said components. You'll never stop a player from obtaining them, even if the practice violates the EULA (though I'm not sure trading ISK for Aurum cards is..? I mean, money is still going to CCP either way? Who knows). Have a suggestion for the Planetary Services Department? *Founder of AIV*
Pseudogenesis Nos Nothi 1703	Posted - 2015.02.11 07:17:00 - [47] - Quote The way I see it, the best solution is: 1) Severely reduce both the starting components and the amount required for the very first warbarge upgrade. 300 components will always encourage alt farming and it's not even necessary since the only thing you can spend it on is the first upgrade. Reduce it to maybe something like 50. 2) As others have said, make components gained actively, not passively. Have the component subsystem modify the number of components received per match, not just provide free components all the time. If you do both of these then I see no problem with allowing components to be traded. CLONE117 wrote: if only all this effort on stupid components and useless warbarges was redirected and focused on getting pve into the game. Oh yeah guys, why don't you just have your QA testers work on new art assets, and have your programmers just make AI! Simple, right? Stabby-stabber extraordinaire Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉn¦ñ I stabbed Rattati once, you know.
Vitantur Nothus Nos Nothi 1942	Posted - 2015.02.11 15:34:00 - [48] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: ... find or create a more elegant solution and link me on it ... o/ Cross! Mind if I add my two cents? Concept: Component Flow Model * Adds strategic element to the mix of surface infrastructure * Adds strategic element to the timing of raids (hit at capacity to maximize return on CP) * Adds strategic element to the timing of harvests (harvest at capacity to maximize return or now to minimize risk) * Reinforces Risk/Reward variation between Conquest and Raid Models Concept: Component Pay Model * Adds value to low-experience, high-activity mercs (corps will want active newbros) * Incentives joining an active corp (mercs want components; active corps have components) * Incentives Merc Activity (get paid based upon your CP contribution from missions completed) * Incentives Corp PC Activity (fail to pay your personnel and find them leaving for greener pastures) * Adds strategic element to headcount management (corp pay pool is divided among members) * Adds strategic element to compensation management (how much to pay and how much to reinvest?) How does this all relate to Warbage Components? These are what keep Barges and Fleets afloat. These are post-level-5 upgrades. These are hard earned and in high demand. These are best gained though Activity, much like Earned SP. And like a SP, these are cannot be gifted away or traded; they must be earned through Activity.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6602	Posted - 2015.02.11 16:27:00 - [49] - Quote redacted Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Lavallois Nash Federal Transfers and Trades 483	Posted - 2015.02.11 17:34:00 - [50] - Quote I dont know if anyone said this yet, but what if "Warbarge generation" was just like "passive SP", in terms that the passive can only be active on 1 character at a time. The logic being that there is no need to have 3 warbarges ready to go when only 1 character is active. So while the one on the active account is generating, the others are powered down with their factories idle. This way, we could keep trading open, because you wouldnt be able to alt warbarge farm on your main PSN account. That would eliminate 90% of alt farming. Sure, some people will attempt it by using multiple PSN accounts, but i mean, people like that, they were going to find a way to cheat the system no matter what anyway.

Kaeru Nayiri Ready to Play 497	Posted - 2015.02.11 18:20:00 - [51] - Quote Lavallois Nash wrote: I dont know if anyone said this yet, but what if "Warbarge generation" was just like "passive SP", in terms that the passive can only be active on 1 character at a time. The logic being that there is no need to have 3 warbarges ready to go when only 1 character is active. So while the one on the active account is generating, the others are powered down with their factories idle. This way, we could keep trading open, because you wouldnt be able to alt warbarge farm on your main PSN account. That would eliminate 90% of alt farming. Sure, some people will attempt it by using multiple PSN accounts, but i mean, people like that, they were going to find a way to cheat the system no matter what anyway. Great idea.
IAmDuncanIdaho II Nos Nothi 1430	Posted - 2015.02.11 20:16:00 - [52] - Quote Lavallois Nash wrote: Sure, some people will attempt it by using multiple PSN accounts, but i mean, people like that, they were going to find a way to cheat the system no matter what anyway. Disagree, and surely no reason not to prevent the more obvious "hacks"? The harder it is to exploit, the less people will do it and the less negative impact it will have.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 7777	Posted - 2015.02.11 21:06:00 - [53] - Quote IAmDuncanIdaho II wrote: Lavallois Nash wrote: Sure, some people will attempt it by using multiple PSN accounts, but i mean, people like that, they were going to find a way to cheat the system no matter what anyway. Disagree, and surely no reason not to prevent the more obvious "hacks"? The harder it is to exploit, the less people will do it and the less negative impact it will have. While I like the idea, I think the problem is not so much can it be abused, but how greatly will that abuse affect gameplay and any potential future economy. When you think about the way that passive ISK in PC created a farming mechanic, it didn't take a significant portion of the population to cause problems. I would rather they be more actively gained, or untraded if gained passively in any way. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Lavallois Nash Federal Transfers and Trades 487	Posted - 2015.02.11 21:22:00 - [54] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: While I like the idea, I think the problem is not so much can it be abused, but how greatly will that abuse affect gameplay and any potential future economy. When you think about the way that passive ISK in PC created a farming mechanic, it didn't take a significant portion of the population to cause problems. I would rather they be more actively gained, or untraded if gained passively in any way. Im not arguing against active acquisition. What I was saying is a solution if it has to remain passive.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 890	Posted - 2015.02.11 21:33:00 - [55] - Quote Pseudogenesis wrote: The way I see it, the best solution is: 1) Severely reduce both the starting components and the amount required for the very first warbarge upgrade. 300 components will always encourage alt farming and it's not even necessary since the only thing you can spend it on is the first upgrade. Reduce it to maybe something like 50. 2) As others have said, make components gained actively, not passively. Have the component subsystem modify the number of components received per match, not just provide free components all the time. If you do both of these then I see no problem with allowing components to be traded. CLONE117 wrote: if only all this effort on stupid components and useless warbarges was redirected and focused on getting pve into the game. Oh yeah guys, why don't you just have your QA testers work on new art assets, and have your programmers just make AI! Simple, right? it is simple!. and it would have a better chance at getting this game some where. instead of nowhere for once. focus on getting a decent pve out= renewed potential. if only we could pilot the mcc. id end the matches real quick.
Kain Spero Negative-Feedback. 4590	Posted - 2015.02.11 21:41:00 - [56] - Quote Lavallois Nash wrote: I dont know if anyone said this yet, but what if "Warbarge generation" was just like "passive SP", in terms that the passive can only be active on 1 character at a time. The logic being that there is no need to have 3 warbarges ready to go when only 1 character is active. So while the one on the active account is generating, the others are powered down with their factories idle. This way, we could keep trading open, because you wouldnt be able to alt warbarge farm on your main PSN account. That would eliminate 90% of alt farming. Sure, some people will attempt it by using multiple PSN accounts, but i mean, people like that, they were going to find a way to cheat the system no matter what anyway. My 10+ alt PSN accounts would beg to differ with this idea. Owner of Spero Escrow Services Follow @KainSpero for Dust and Legion news
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6062	Posted - 2015.02.12 02:14:00 - [57] - Quote I'm going to be super pissed if we can't trade warbarge components. You either need to allow it or refund AUR spent on warbarges. I'm selling Templar Codes. 2 of 5 remaining. 225 mil ISK. Message me in game.
IREK Ladybox Holdfast Syndicate Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2015.02.12 03:20:00 - [58] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Im more of the mind that we should be given more of incentive to not farm, or that it shouldnt be the most viable option. Make it so number 1
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6618	Posted - 2015.02.12 03:37:00 - [59] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Alt farming is the only reasonable way to upgrade and use the warbarge before I die of old age. Can we all agree in advance on what is a reasonably sized Alt Farm, and promise not to exceed it? Kain has 10 accounts ... that's 30 mercs to farm. Is 30 mercs fair enough? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 6062	Posted - 2015.02.12 03:58:00 - [60] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Kain Spero wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Booby Tuesdays wrote: Simply remove Components and Scrap Metal from the list of tradeable goodies when Simple Trading comes out. That's the obvious fix. Alt farming of any kind is not playing the game. Any way to have a more elegant solution that doesn't involve limiting the player economy down the road? Really all assests should be tradable. Why? Because EVE? Honest question. You are basically saying "All games should have all assets tradeable all the time". Not to start a huge argument, and I still know this will flare up, but because EVE is not a reason. Especially with PSN accounts being completely different from EVE accounts, since, you know, they have to pay a subscription to alt farm. Eve doesn't have it's newest feature with a progression that may last longer than the platform it's played on either. I'm selling Templar Codes. 2 of 5 remaining. 225 mil ISK. Message me in game.



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