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Reasons for no ISK trade between Eve and Dust?

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Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 52	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:32:00 - [1] - Quote It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground. Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 2388	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:37:00 - [2] - Quote Because no matter how much Isk you'd transfer, there are people in Eve who'd make that seem like a drop in the bucket. The non-existent economy would be ruined so thoroughly that it would never be able to get off the ground let alone recover. Amarr/Minmatar vehicles are OP (especially Minmatar speed tanks) ^The reason why CCP is afraid to release them
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:41:00 - [3] - Quote Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk.
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 52	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:48:00 - [4] - Quote pumping up wrote: Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk. That's interesting.. it's not really much of an economy if Eve ISK and Dust ISK don't share the same strength. I'm sure they could change that if they tried, though. Without any economic interaction the connection between Eve and Dust is miniscule... The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 52	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:49:00 - [5] - Quote pumping up wrote: Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk. What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1823	Posted - 2015.01.16 21:51:00 - [6] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Because no matter how much Isk you'd transfer, there are people in Eve who'd make that seem like a drop in the bucket. this, several eve characters (mine included) could buy up anything in dust if you could transfer isk with a 1 to 1 ratio. Helghus Resther wrote: What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? at the current state dust isk is worthless imho (or it has no value in eve for me)
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 52	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:02:00 - [7] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Because no matter how much Isk you'd transfer, there are people in Eve who'd make that seem like a drop in the bucket. this, several eve characters (mine included) could buy up anything in dust if you could transfer isk with a 1 to 1 ratio. Helghus Resther wrote: What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? at the current state dust isk is worthless imho (or it has no value in eve for me) Well it can't have any value to you because it can't be traded, what I meant is a number for what 1 Eve ISK would equate to in Dust ISK, (i.e. 117.48 Yen = 1 U.S. Dollar) but I can assume that's not simple to calculate. So, how much ISK does one of your Eve characters have The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
DAMIOS82 WarRavens Capital Punishment. 154	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:07:00 - [8] - Quote Allthough it is something i would like to see in the future, atm dust isk is indeed worthless comparable to EVE. I personally have proberly over 60 Billion isk in assets in EVE and i'm just a small dog. The economy's are so different that they would have to come up with a proper formula before anything could be tempted like that or it would shater the value of EVE isk.
MrShooter01 Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 1265	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:07:00 - [9] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: pumping up wrote: Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk. What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? Let me put it this way While playing dust 514, I can mine on another screen in a Retriever mining barge paying almost zero attention to it and make several times more isk than the match payout by the time the match is over and mining is one of the slowest ways to make isk anyone with an eve online account could spam vehicles in public matches forever
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:08:00 - [10] - Quote MrShooter01 wrote: anyone with an eve online account could spam vehicles in public matches forever I always hoped to do this lol.

DAMIOS82 WarRavens Capital Punishment. 154	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:13:00 - [11] - Quote Or make there own suits/weapons in production facility's, ow and they would be made by the 10 thousands at a time. Unending amounts just for the fraction of the price in dust.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1057	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:32:00 - [12] - Quote Well... from what I've seen, some would put ISK around Dust 1 ISK ~=~ EVE 500 - 5500 ISK But I don't have many numbers regarding these things in respect to one another. If the system is to work, there needs to be 2 things that are carefully monitored. 1. The strength of Dust ISK must be strong enough so that it can put a dent in a careless EVE player's wallet, if they were to transfer through funds for suits etc. 2. The strength of Dust ISK must be weak enough so that it cannot be used as an easy substitute for earning PLEX. if the second value is not respected, it could cause a large problem for those who have balanced their incomes around the Plex market, for continued play, due to the cost of PLEX may increase 2- 4x in a day, until the price balances around the new Dust influx. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10762	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:50:00 - [13] - Quote Hmm... judging by your public records, you may not have known what has happened in the past back when Dust 514 use to only exist in the Singularity Test Server. Let me tell you something I witnessed first hand back then. Sometime just after the ability to transfer ISK between two Dust players was implemented, CCP accidentally turned on the switch that enabled Eve players in the Test Server to transfer ISK to Dust players. It lasted for a few days before CCP took notice of the mistake and automatically shut off the switch. But during those few days, massive amounts of ISK flooded the wallets of Dust players who were lucky enough to notice the flaw and happened to know an Eve player who had boatloads of ISK. A single player as an example was able to transfer about a billion ISK from the Eve side of the Test Server to the Dust side and that enabled him to continuously stomp with proto gear. There were many more players that exploited this mistake and thus resulted in a massive problem with ISK circulation which was suppose to be kept under control so that players wouldn't be able to continuously proto stomp pub matches nonstop financially. Of course, until later on when CCP wiped everyone's assets and wallets clean for the January 2013 transfer to the Tranquility Live Server. Of course, the problem didn't really go away when PC was screwed up with constant District Locking which resulted in Districts becoming nothing more than risk-free ATM machines for about a whole year at least before that problem got fixed as well. Once again, we saw a glimpse of what happens when ISK circulation gets out of control. Another thing to remember is the value of ISK between Eve Online and Dust 514. ISK generation in Eve Online is relatively large as there are plenty of ways to introduce ISK. Mission Running and doing Incursions generate a lot of ISK especially with highly-skilled players who figured out the most efficient ways of generating ISK with the most optimal fittings for their ships (these are Eve players we're talking here). There are also ways of earning ISK without introducing more into circulation such as market trading, mining, salvaging, manufacturing then selling, POCO taxes, etc. A single player mining ice in a Mackinaw can earn at least 15 million ISK per hour and that's from just sitting there next to a rock for that long. A skilled marketeer can make millions more per hour without even logging in as long as he can effectively predict market trends and takes full advantage of them. Gate campers in Uedama and Niarja can get away with billions of ISK worth of loot from wrecks left behind by their gank victims who often fly in ships hauling extremely valuable cargo. An Incursion runner can earn hundreds of millions of ISK in the span of a few hours. By the end of the day, the Incursion runner would make enough ISK to PLEX his account for another 30 days of game time. ISK generation in Dust 514 is relatively small as there are limited way of introducing ISK. PC Districts as far as I know don't generate passive ISK anymore. Grinding ambush all day seems to be the most efficient ISK generation tactic so far outside of taxing your own corp mates as a CEO or Director. But even with grinding Ambush for a single hour, assuming you complete such a match in about 5 minutes each earning about 250,000 ISK, you're only making about 3 million ISK per hour and that's before accounting for your losses. So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference. My most expensive dropsuit fitting (111,000 ISK Minscout) is worth only 1/3 the value of the hull of a frigate-class Bantam which is about 300,000 ISK right now. My cheapest fitting is worth only a little more than twice the value of a single tech 1 Veldspar Mining Crystal which I can mass produce no problem in Eve. So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:54:00 - [14] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10762	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:58:00 - [15] - Quote pumping up wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly. Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
pumping up Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 33	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:02:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: pumping up wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly. Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market. Where is the problem with my above statement ? That still works even with inflated prices, does it not? edit: Either way, they could also just introduce a second currency, dust-credits or w/e.
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 52	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:08:00 - [17] - Quote I'll just do a rough calculation based off of the information I've gotten so far Let's say the new Eve player is mining Vespar for 24 hours and is making 900,000 ISK per 15 minutes. That would be 196 payments of 900,000 ISK; 86,400,000 ISK. A player who just started Dust and is using militia suits, but he's in academy mode, let's say he makes 180,000 ISK a match, in all 20 minute skirmish matches that day. 72 x 180,000 = 12,960,000 ISK. The Eve player would make 73,440,000 more ISK than the Dust player that day. This generally only tells us that a Dust player wouldn't be able to provide much for an Eve player, but an Eve player could make the Dust player infinitely rich with their ISK (relative to the cost of assets on Dust) This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust? The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 186	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:26:00 - [18] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: ... So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference. ... That is consistent with my experience running an exchange for a little more than a year. The post with links to google doc from the thread in my sig I believe no one will need a private exchange like mine if Legion comes to be, as I hope CCP will build a relatively risk-free exchange. For now, the rates reflect the differing value players place on Dust and Eve isk. -Gyn Wallace/Min Lo The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
Edau Skir2 Sebiestor Field Sappers Minmatar Republic 292	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:50:00 - [19] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: pumping up wrote: Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk. What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? Can't belive no-one got there first. But using the CCP sanctioned rates that one of the guys on here does, 1 dust Isk is worth 20 eve isk. Which is why you get 5mil dust for 20mil eve. Resident pasty smasher
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 56	Posted - 2015.01.16 23:54:00 - [20] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: ... So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference. ... That is consistent with my experience running an exchange for a little more than a year. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread. A few links to notable posts from that thread: Links to google doc spreadsheet showing the past year's exchanges, which if you wait for them to load, include a couple of spiffy charts. A post detailing the right way to purchase Dust isk for real money. If anyone here is interested, I'll update those calculations. A follow up post detailing the comparative dollar value of time spent playing Dust. Looking forward, I'm hopeful that CCP will develop and release Legion with a robust built in currency exchange between Eve and Legion, completely free from the risks inherent in players doing business with each other. Until then, shop around and feel free to ask any questions, -Gyn Wallace/Min Lo I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve. The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.

Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 187	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:13:00 - [21] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve. I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes. Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play. I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
TEBOW BAGGINS GREATNESS ACHIEVED THRU TROLLING 1550	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:37:00 - [22] - Quote we used to expect this but it died somewhere.. that was one of the original selling points of this game was that we would be funded by EVE players... in turn that funding would boost there planetary interaction resources by us owning districts of actual planets they were after.. one experimental FPS does not just simply walk into the EVE economy tho.. AKA Zirzo Valcyn AFKing since 2012
Bright Cloud Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 778	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:42:00 - [23] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground. Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? hah how cute ya know that the only thing that keeps this game running and not beeing kicked off the server are the AUR sales? Ya know BPO's, boosters, consumable gear etc. So when the ISK flooding gates between eve to dust would open then the dust players who aswell play eve would have a insane advantage. Thing is earning ISK on eve is much easier to do then doing it on dust. For example that what the average merc earns per month can the eve player earn within 20 mins. The effect on pub matches would be that you see every twatt and their mother running proto stuff (currently its usually elite players). And PC could break cause if you have 1 eve player in your corp then you can spam clone pack attacks 24/7. Main reason however is it would stall AUR sales and thats why CCP wont allow this to happend ever. Bright is the opposite of dark! Who would have thought of that?!
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 56	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:43:00 - [24] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: Helghus Resther wrote: I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve. I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes. Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play. I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run. I see where you're coming from here, and I do agree; I don't think it would make sense for a Dust suit to cost more than an Eve ship, unless said suit happened to be immensely overpowered compared to the others, which would only cause further complications. The gap between price and payouts in the two games could be much smaller than it is now, though. The current ratios are ridiculous, my current most expensive suit is about 155,000 ISK, how does that compare to the cost of a frigate? I also care about the lore and the immersion aspect, which I believe is hindered by the fact that there isn't any real economic transfers between the Eve pilots and mercenaries, it creates two almost completely isolated worlds in New Eden. Let's come up with some numbers for a start, though. In the 86,400,000 ISK made (Eve noob) and the 12,960,000 (Dust noob) model from before, the ratio is about 6.6667 - 1. What if we multiply the Dust numbers x4 for assets and payout? 64,000,000 ISK for the Dust noob a full day. This brings the ratio to a much closer 1.35 - 1. The new Dust merc makes 720,000 ISK a match and spends 9,800 ISK for each militia suit restock. Proto suits at about 144,000 each, something like this could be developed. The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 3136	Posted - 2015.01.17 00:50:00 - [25] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground. Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA? Surely the two economies must be similar. One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught. Interesting.
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 56	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:07:00 - [26] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Helghus Resther wrote: It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground. Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA? Surely the two economies must be similar. One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught. Interesting. It would seem that you bluntly overlooked one of the primary points that about, everyone else saw. Maybe you didn't read half of my other posts. Interesting. Read my other post, I thought of an example plan that brings the Eve to Dust rates to 1.35 - 1. It's an example of what CCP should do, since the Eve and Dust economes are completely separated and having radically different values. The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Helghus Resther Heisen Republic 56	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:12:00 - [27] - Quote Bethhy wrote: Helghus Resther wrote: It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground. Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA? Surely the two economies must be similar. One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught. Interesting. -Economics is taught -Taxes, part of economics -World leaders & their governments, taught "One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p" How old is the U.K. compared to the U.S.? Does that have anything to do with the strength of their currencies today? No. Keep this thread to the point, whatever you're trying to say doesn't even make any sense. The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
Funkmaster Whale Whale Pod 2727	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:27:00 - [28] - Quote Simply because the game economies are vastly different in terms of scale. A single EVE pilot could fund an entire DUST alliance single-handedly if he wanted to. A billion ISK in DUST could fund a war for weeks on end while in EVE it's not even enough to get a single capital ship. A player can make millions upon billions of ISK in a day in EVE, while doing the same in DUST is much much trickier and usually dependent on entire corps district farming. Last I checked I'm sitting on about 2.2 billion ISK as well as 1+ billion in assets in EVE, and my last time playing EVE was in 2009. It'd be stupid if I could transfer that to my DUST char. Follow me on Twitch.tv!
Leovarian L Lavitz NECROM0NGERS 1321	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:38:00 - [29] - Quote How about a 99.9% tax rate for giving isk to dust mercs? That means that if you donate 1,000,000 isk, the dust merk will get 1k Omni-Soldier Few are my equal in these specialties, none compare in all of them
Killface Hunt TO THE DEATH 65	Posted - 2015.01.17 01:41:00 - [30] - Quote I used to easily make 50+mil per hour running level 4 missions in Eve hisec. Null sec you can easily make 100+mil per hour.



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