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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
186
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Posted - 2015.01.16 23:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote: ... So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference.
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That is consistent with my experience running an exchange for a little more than a year.
The post with links to google doc from the thread in my sig
I believe no one will need a private exchange like mine if Legion comes to be, as I hope CCP will build a relatively risk-free exchange. For now, the rates reflect the differing value players place on Dust and Eve isk.
-Gyn Wallace/Min Lo
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
187
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Posted - 2015.01.17 00:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Helghus Resther wrote:I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve.
I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes.
Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play.
I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
188
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Helghus Resther wrote:The gap between price and payouts in the two games could be much smaller than it is now, though. The current ratios are ridiculous, my current most expensive suit is about 155,000 ISK, how does that compare to the cost of a frigate?
I also care about the lore and the immersion aspect, which I believe is hindered by the fact that there isn't any real economic transfers between the Eve pilots and mercenaries, it creates two almost completely isolated worlds in New Eden.
Let's come up with some numbers for a start, though. In the 86,400,000 ISK made (Eve noob) and the 12,960,000 (Dust noob) model from before, the ratio is about 6.6667 - 1. What if we multiply the Dust numbers x4 for assets and payout? 64,000,000 ISK for the Dust noob a full day.
You can buy a Bantam frigate for about 200,000 isk unfitted, or put up a buy order and probably pick one up for about 100,000 isk.
From the exchange's history, linked in the earlier post, the exchange rate has lingered mostly between 1:5 and 1:10. I think you could multiply every isk figure in Dust514 by a factor of 6, and wind up pretty close to a 1:1 exchange rate with Eve Online. Every Dust isk number would have to be multiplied by 6 in order to avoid any change to the incentives Dust players have been working with. Every isk price x6, every match isk payout x6, every isk wallet x6. Then within Dust the change would have zero net effect. But between Dust and Eve, you'd greatly diminish the difference in isk value between a Dust player's time and an Eve Online player's time. Aurum values would remain untouched.
In the process CCP would create a list of every process that might need future adjustments or patching(to increase payouts by x6; avoiding redundancies that would result in a x36 payout), and the categories within their data tables that underwent the multiplication, so that future adjustments to the entire isk value of the Dust economy would be relatively easy. Small tweaking adjustments should be relatively easy after the first major adjustment.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
189
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Again, the best way to ensure that Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer doesn't hurt Dust too much is to impose a heavy import tax. But even then, CCP will need to figure out how much to tax and possibly adjust it over time as both the ISK value in Eve and that of Dust eventually reach a state of equilibrium. If that ever happens, there may one day be no need for import taxes between the two. Modest taxes are a fine idea, just as an easily tolerable isk sink. Significant taxes, with no obviously proportionate value provided to the tax payers by the tax collector, pose a problem in that they encourage black markets. I've wondered by CCP can't simply displace me and the private currency exchange I've been running. Instead of me taking risks (since I don't know where prices will go, that's entirely up to my customers) and making profits (similar to the profits I could have made spending my time trading within Eve Online) CCP could take lesser risks presumably (since they can tweak the economies in ways I can't) and collect similar profits as another isk sink, similar to a tax.
If the Dust economy (prices, payouts, wallets) had every isk value multiplied by about 6, CCP could run a currency exchange just like mine, but with a "tax" on the transfers under 10% in each direction. A skill could drop that by 1% per skill level, down toward a 5% tax in each direction, for people who planned on transferring a lot of isk between Dust/Legion and Eve.
The entire Dust economy could be tweaked again by adjusting only the match payouts (you wouldn't want wallets adjusted by more than the tax amount, unless CCP wanted to encourage wildly speculative transfers).
The primary benefit of linking the Dust and Eve economies is that CCP and Sony make cash from Aurum sales, but CCP makes money from Plex sales. I'd love to see more people playing Dust, because they can make enough Isk, so that even after paying a 10% transfer tax, they could get enough isk in Eve to plex their Eve character's account. This would need to be difficult enough, that not everybody did it, unless CCP wanted to see the isk price for Plex spike.
Dust can add value to CCP's bottom line financial well being by not only being a advertisement/feeder for new Eve players, but to support Plex sales more directly.
This possibility (and the failure to share those profits with Sony) might be why CCP hasn't built an official exchange or adjusted Dust's economy toward parity with Eve Online's isk values. I think we've got a great chance of seeing this developed for Legion, but almost no chance of seeing an official economic link between Dust514 and Eve Online.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
189
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Posted - 2015.01.17 18:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bethhy wrote: ...Exchanging currency from one closed economy to another closed economy would cause massive problems to both economies.
If i transfered my 2.68 billion to EVE from my DUST account at any reasonable exchange rate that has been said in this thread.... I Will flood EVE with large quantities of ISK that will come from absolutely no where in the game. Emphasis added above. At a reasonable exchange rate, there is no net transfer between economies. The transfers in each direction balance out. You'd be correct, if the exchange rate weren't reasonable. But with a reasonable exchange rate, with people wanting to transfer as much isk into Dust and there are people wanting to transfer their isk into Eve, there is no harm to either economy.
To use your example, some individuals have transferred over 10B of their Eve isk into Dust. Lots of other individuals transferred a bit of their Dust isk into Eve. Because the exchange rates follow the market instead of trying to lead it, those exchanges balance out. Again, I've been operating an exchange between Dust and Eve for more than a year, with no harm to either economy, unless you consider some Dust players running proto more often a harm, or some Eve players buying stuff with their Dust profits to be a form of harm.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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Gyn Wallace
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
190
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Posted - 2015.01.18 16:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
Helghus Resther wrote:One Eyed King wrote:... Let them make a fun game first, then we can worry about this pet project. -The only way they could really fix it is doing what Gyn and I have stated multiple times, multiply the income and assets numbers by x5 to x6, and increase the income range for Dust. -The work process would take place entirely within Dust, so to making it safe to open up Dust's economy to Eve. "Assuming they ever wanted it" Assuming they wanted to actually implement one of their original selling points in the game, that they showed in multiple trailers. Nah, that would be silly.
Dust's fitting, skill system, 16v16 fights, and chatting with squad and corp mates entertain me; its already a fun game.
The real question is where does CCP get the best bang for its buck improving Dust/building Legion. What will provide CCP's income and our entertainment over the next three to five years? More racial variants, tweaks to the graphics, etc.... none of these improvements distinguish Dust or Legion from lots of other FPS type games. The fitting system is robust and excellent. But where Legion has the potential to outshine its competitors is exactly in the area of this "pet project." Improving the ease with which Eve pilots can actually hep their friends on the ground with orbitals would be HUGE. Enhancing the connection with Eve includes "sexy" bits like dropping orbitals but the foundational elements like economics are every bit as important if CCP wants to see its market share and profits improve.
Adding cooperative PvE to Dust or Legion is the only think I can think of that would outweigh the importance of enhancing the connection to Eve. No other economically feasible improvements have more potential for growing the player-base.
The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
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