DUST Search - Reasons for no ISK trade between Eve and Dust?

Helghus Resther wrote:

I'm not going for the import tax idea. A huge deduction of Eve ISK to Dust, a multiplier for Dust ISK to Eve.. that's a mess.

We should probably address the right problems first; Dust doesn't have as many ways of making ISK as Eve does. Since I'm not an Eve player, I'd like to be filled in on the numbers for a high level Eve player in a large corporation.
As for Dust, there's grinding public matches, planetary conquest (+ the passive ISK from it) , and nothing else. Loyalty points give you a discount.

This is before counting the losses in suits, tanks, and any other assets. We can't sit in front of a rock and get ISK from it, so the only way to profit is in the battles. While this makes sense, there could be more game modes, or player market room, or something.
What really makes this situation difficult to solve is the much larger range of options Eve players have to make ISK, as well as the ability to make so much more of it than when they were new. A new player on Dust might make around 120,000 per match, and 250 - 300,000 ISK per match while proto stomping on publics.

I'm quite sure there's a much larger gap for Eve players.


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Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10762	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:50:00 - [1] - Quote Hmm... judging by your public records, you may not have known what has happened in the past back when Dust 514 use to only exist in the Singularity Test Server. Let me tell you something I witnessed first hand back then. Sometime just after the ability to transfer ISK between two Dust players was implemented, CCP accidentally turned on the switch that enabled Eve players in the Test Server to transfer ISK to Dust players. It lasted for a few days before CCP took notice of the mistake and automatically shut off the switch. But during those few days, massive amounts of ISK flooded the wallets of Dust players who were lucky enough to notice the flaw and happened to know an Eve player who had boatloads of ISK. A single player as an example was able to transfer about a billion ISK from the Eve side of the Test Server to the Dust side and that enabled him to continuously stomp with proto gear. There were many more players that exploited this mistake and thus resulted in a massive problem with ISK circulation which was suppose to be kept under control so that players wouldn't be able to continuously proto stomp pub matches nonstop financially. Of course, until later on when CCP wiped everyone's assets and wallets clean for the January 2013 transfer to the Tranquility Live Server. Of course, the problem didn't really go away when PC was screwed up with constant District Locking which resulted in Districts becoming nothing more than risk-free ATM machines for about a whole year at least before that problem got fixed as well. Once again, we saw a glimpse of what happens when ISK circulation gets out of control. Another thing to remember is the value of ISK between Eve Online and Dust 514. ISK generation in Eve Online is relatively large as there are plenty of ways to introduce ISK. Mission Running and doing Incursions generate a lot of ISK especially with highly-skilled players who figured out the most efficient ways of generating ISK with the most optimal fittings for their ships (these are Eve players we're talking here). There are also ways of earning ISK without introducing more into circulation such as market trading, mining, salvaging, manufacturing then selling, POCO taxes, etc. A single player mining ice in a Mackinaw can earn at least 15 million ISK per hour and that's from just sitting there next to a rock for that long. A skilled marketeer can make millions more per hour without even logging in as long as he can effectively predict market trends and takes full advantage of them. Gate campers in Uedama and Niarja can get away with billions of ISK worth of loot from wrecks left behind by their gank victims who often fly in ships hauling extremely valuable cargo. An Incursion runner can earn hundreds of millions of ISK in the span of a few hours. By the end of the day, the Incursion runner would make enough ISK to PLEX his account for another 30 days of game time. ISK generation in Dust 514 is relatively small as there are limited way of introducing ISK. PC Districts as far as I know don't generate passive ISK anymore. Grinding ambush all day seems to be the most efficient ISK generation tactic so far outside of taxing your own corp mates as a CEO or Director. But even with grinding Ambush for a single hour, assuming you complete such a match in about 5 minutes each earning about 250,000 ISK, you're only making about 3 million ISK per hour and that's before accounting for your losses. So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference. My most expensive dropsuit fitting (111,000 ISK Minscout) is worth only 1/3 the value of the hull of a frigate-class Bantam which is about 300,000 ISK right now. My cheapest fitting is worth only a little more than twice the value of a single tech 1 Veldspar Mining Crystal which I can mass produce no problem in Eve. So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10762	Posted - 2015.01.16 22:58:00 - [2] - Quote pumping up wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly. Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10770	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:14:00 - [3] - Quote pumping up wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: pumping up wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly. Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market. Where is the problem with my above statement ? That still works even with inflated prices, does it not? edit: Either way, they could also just introduce a second currency, dust-credits or w/e. Let's talk about this for a bit. Please correct me if I'm wrong. "...inflate the prices of all items dust..." This is assuming that CCP would be willing to do that. Knowing CCP very well when it comes to secondary markets, the only items they will likely directly adjust would be militia level items or other starter gear. That and the price of AURUM for the AUR consumables. Since we know that Legion will likely have a player-run secondary market, the prices will be determined by several factors. These factors are: How much ISK Player A earns? How much ISK Player B wants for selling Item C? How badly Player A needs Items C from Player B? How much ISK Player A is willing to spend for Item C? How did Player B acquire Item C in the first place? How much did it cost Player B to acquire said item? How difficult is it to acquire Item C? These factors are what drive the market forces. We refer to these market forces as "The Laws of Supply & Demand". Investopedia explains it better and Eve Online follows these laws very closely. So you see, CCP can't just simply adjust prices of most things without first upsetting almost everyone involved. Eve Online was originally NPC driven with its market back in its early days. But eventually the NPC market gave way to the secondary market and later industry which gave players almost full control of the market. Almost everything in Eve, from ships to POSes, to turrets, to ammo, to fuel, and to colonies, was created and handled by the players. Since CCP Rattati is already talking about one day introducing Simple Trading along with Simple Crafting possibly in March 2015 (if the Trello Roadmap is anything to rely on) for Dust 514, this could be the beginning of the end of the NPC-seeded market. We already have the basic principle of Simple Crafting implemented in Dust via the Strongboxes and Hacked Encryption Keys. Put together material A with material B to get Item C. This is the beginning of Industry. "...up the isk creation accordingly." This is the main problem I wanted to point out. It's really not that simple. Once Simple Trading and Simple Crafting is implemented, there will be Dust players who will dedicate themselves making a profit strictly from either trading or manufacturing once they are able to overcome the initial upfront cost to get started and once they have effectively predicted market trends which is very tricky to do and it's not without its risks. For every player that is not fighting in a Skirmish, Ambush, or Domination match, is a player that is not injecting ISK into the economy. Marketeers and Industrialists are such players. They don't generate ISK. They merely transfer it from buyer to seller. The balance between ISK generation and ISK transfer can impact the supply and demand of an item. There is also having to watch out for exploiters which have been known to affect the market in Eve Online in a negative way. CCP's security team can explain that part better than I could. Don't ask me what exploits were used in Eve as that will require assaulting your eyes with all sorts of game-mechanic mumbo jumbo you probably won't even understand. So you can't just up the ISK generation and hope for the best. The ISK generation will need to be balanced with everything else while trying to account for every possible scenario including edge cases -- which is impossible to accurately predict. Again, the best way to ensure that Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer doesn't hurt Dust too much is to impose a heavy import tax. But even then, CCP will need to figure out how much to tax and possibly adjust it over time as both the ISK value in Eve and that of Dust eventually reach a state of equilibrium. If that ever happens, there may one day be no need for import taxes between the two. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10770	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:23:00 - [4] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: I'll just do a rough calculation based off of the information I've gotten so far Let's say the new Eve player is mining Vespar for 24 hours and is making 900,000 ISK per 15 minutes. That would be 196 payments of 900,000 ISK; 86,400,000 ISK. A player who just started Dust and is using militia suits, but he's in academy mode, let's say he makes 180,000 ISK a match, in all 20 minute skirmish matches that day. 72 x 180,000 = 12,960,000 ISK. The Eve player would make 73,440,000 more ISK than the Dust player that day. This generally only tells us that a Dust player wouldn't be able to provide much for an Eve player, but an Eve player could make the Dust player infinitely rich with their ISK (relative to the cost of assets on Dust) This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust? If you read my previous post, our supposedly dead economy is very likely to come alive if CCP Rattati keeps his promise about Simple Trading and Crafting. Compared to the previous Dust leadership, Rattati has a good track record of keeping promises. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10770	Posted - 2015.01.17 02:30:00 - [5] - Quote TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: we used to expect this but it died somewhere.. that was one of the original selling points of this game was that we would be funded by EVE players... in turn that funding would boost there planetary interaction resources by us owning districts of actual planets they were after.. one experimental FPS does not just simply walk into the EVE economy tho.. That last bit is so true. I can't possibly put anymore emphasis on that point. Eve Online's economy is a beast that took 11 years to nurture and perfect. This is why it took CCP too long to fully flesh out Dust's economy. CCP probably didn't know how to carefully connect the two economically at the time without Dust inadvertently screwing up Eve because of some bug they overlooked. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10771	Posted - 2015.01.17 03:11:00 - [6] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: I'm not going for the import tax idea. A huge deduction of Eve ISK to Dust, a multiplier for Dust ISK to Eve.. that's a mess. We should probably address the right problems first; Dust doesn't have as many ways of making ISK as Eve does. Since I'm not an Eve player, I'd like to be filled in on the numbers for a high level Eve player in a large corporation. As for Dust, there's grinding public matches, planetary conquest (+ the passive ISK from it) , and nothing else. Loyalty points give you a discount. This is before counting the losses in suits, tanks, and any other assets. We can't sit in front of a rock and get ISK from it, so the only way to profit is in the battles. While this makes sense, there could be more game modes, or player market room, or something. What really makes this situation difficult to solve is the much larger range of options Eve players have to make ISK, as well as the ability to make so much more of it than when they were new. A new player on Dust might make around 120,000 per match, and 250 - 300,000 ISK per match while proto stomping on publics. I'm quite sure there's a much larger gap for Eve players. That's basing it on current mechanics. Once the 1.1 update for the "Next Release" (aka Not-Uprising 1.0) arrives, many things will change. Players in Dust will likely have broad ISK-making options. Let's also not forget that the Trello Roadmap points to things like EPICs, district raiding, warbarge raiding and possibly salvager gameplay which will further impact the way players earn ISK. Source: https://trello.com/b/R44szWCe/dust-514-development-roadmap PS: It also wouldn't really be a mess. CCP does have experience with the Eve Online economy and have the tools for tracking and predicting the stability of the market and thus could adjust the import tax accordingly. Not on a daily basis but probably on a quarterly, semi-annually, or annual basis. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10772	Posted - 2015.01.17 04:02:00 - [7] - Quote I wouldn't support the idea of increasing ISK income from one source such as PvP matches. But I can support the idea of increasing the number of those sources. PvE battles such as fighting against rogue drones or maybe having our very own Sansha Nation Incursions to deal with on the ground are some of the ways to get things started. Bounties against players are another thing since those involve strictly ISK transfers rather than ISK generation. Kind of like Simple Trading. The ISK transfer part (simple trading and bounties) can help with redistribution of wealth from the larger corps willing to put pay to the individual mercs for a service. Trickle down economics. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 10772	Posted - 2015.01.17 04:15:00 - [8] - Quote Helghus Resther wrote: Getting paid the same as everybody else even though you do much more.. yeah, I'm going to say it. Communism; It's what we get when we fight for NPC corps. Sorry, but that label doesn't apply here. You get paid by corporate entities, not governments.You also get paid more based on your Loyalty Rank, how hard you work, and how efficiently you work. The NPC corps don't pay you the same flat rate forever. Just like how corporations in the real world pay you more the longer and more efficient you work for them. Eve Online NPC corps pay you more as well per mission the more standings you have with them. They also pay you a bonus for completing the mission within a short amount of time (usually within half an hour) even though they give you almost a whole day to finish the mission. On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.