Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive.
It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk.

Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive.
It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk.

Because no matter how much Isk you'd transfer, there are people in Eve who'd make that seem like a drop in the bucket.

What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK?

this, several eve characters (mine included) could buy up anything in dust if you could transfer isk with a 1 to 1 ratio.


at the current state dust isk is worthless imho (or it has no value in eve for me)

What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK?

anyone with an eve online account could spam vehicles in public matches forever

So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games.

There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly.

Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market.

... So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference.
...

What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK?

That is consistent with my experience running an exchange for a little more than a year.

The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread.

A few links to notable posts from that thread:

Links to google doc spreadsheet showing the past year's exchanges, which if you wait for them to load, include a couple of spiffy charts.

A post detailing the right way to purchase Dust isk for real money. If anyone here is interested, I'll update those calculations.

A follow up post detailing the comparative dollar value of time spent playing Dust.

Looking forward, I'm hopeful that CCP will develop and release Legion with a robust built in currency exchange between Eve and Legion, completely free from the risks inherent in players doing business with each other. Until then, shop around and feel free to ask any questions,

-Gyn Wallace/Min Lo

I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve.

It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.

Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off?

I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes.

Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play.

I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run.

It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.

Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off?

Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA?

Surely the two economies must be similar.

One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p

We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught.

Interesting.

Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA?

Surely the two economies must be similar.

One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p

We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught.

Interesting.

How about a 99.9% tax rate for giving isk to dust mercs? That means that if you donate 1,000,000 isk, the dust merk will get 1k

Where is the problem with my above statement ? That still works even with inflated prices, does it not?

edit: Either way, they could also just introduce a second currency, dust-credits or w/e.

I'll just do a rough calculation based off of the information I've gotten so far

Let's say the new Eve player is mining Vespar for 24 hours and is making 900,000 ISK per 15 minutes. That would be 196 payments of 900,000 ISK; 86,400,000 ISK. A player who just started Dust and is using militia suits, but he's in academy mode, let's say he makes 180,000 ISK a match, in all 20 minute skirmish matches that day. 72 x 180,000 = 12,960,000 ISK. The Eve player would make 73,440,000 more ISK than the Dust player that day.

This generally only tells us that a Dust player wouldn't be able to provide much for an Eve player, but an Eve player could make the Dust player infinitely rich with their ISK (relative to the cost of assets on Dust)

This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust?

we used to expect this but it died somewhere.. that was one of the original selling points of this game was that we would be funded by EVE players... in turn that funding would boost there planetary interaction resources by us owning districts of actual planets they were after.. one experimental FPS does not just simply walk into the EVE economy tho..

Let's talk about this for a bit.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

"...inflate the prices of all items dust..."
This is assuming that CCP would be willing to do that. Knowing CCP very well when it comes to secondary markets, the only items they will likely directly adjust would be militia level items or other starter gear. That and the price of AURUM for the AUR consumables. Since we know that Legion will likely have a player-run secondary market, the prices will be determined by several factors. These factors are:

• How much ISK Player A earns?
• How much ISK Player B wants for selling Item C?
• How badly Player A needs Items C from Player B?
• How much ISK Player A is willing to spend for Item C?
• How did Player B acquire Item C in the first place?
• How much did it cost Player B to acquire said item?
• How difficult is it to acquire Item C?

These factors are what drive the market forces. We refer to these market forces as "The Laws of Supply & Demand". Investopedia explains it better and Eve Online follows these laws very closely.

So you see, CCP can't just simply adjust prices of most things without first upsetting almost everyone involved. Eve Online was originally NPC driven with its market back in its early days. But eventually the NPC market gave way to the secondary market and later industry which gave players almost full control of the market. Almost everything in Eve, from ships to POSes, to turrets, to ammo, to fuel, and to colonies, was created and handled by the players. Since CCP Rattati is already talking about one day introducing Simple Trading along with Simple Crafting possibly in March 2015 (if the Trello Roadmap is anything to rely on) for Dust 514, this could be the beginning of the end of the NPC-seeded market. We already have the basic principle of Simple Crafting implemented in Dust via the Strongboxes and Hacked Encryption Keys. Put together material A with material B to get Item C. This is the beginning of Industry.

"...up the isk creation accordingly."

This is the main problem I wanted to point out. It's really not that simple. Once Simple Trading and Simple Crafting is implemented, there will be Dust players who will dedicate themselves making a profit strictly from either trading or manufacturing once they are able to overcome the initial upfront cost to get started and once they have effectively predicted market trends which is very tricky to do and it's not without its risks. For every player that is not fighting in a Skirmish, Ambush, or Domination match, is a player that is not injecting ISK into the economy. Marketeers and Industrialists are such players. They don't generate ISK. They merely transfer it from buyer to seller. The balance between ISK generation and ISK transfer can impact the supply and demand of an item.

There is also having to watch out for exploiters which have been known to affect the market in Eve Online in a negative way. CCP's security team can explain that part better than I could. Don't ask me what exploits were used in Eve as that will require assaulting your eyes with all sorts of game-mechanic mumbo jumbo you probably won't even understand.

So you can't just up the ISK generation and hope for the best. The ISK generation will need to be balanced with everything else while trying to account for every possible scenario including edge cases -- which is impossible to accurately predict.

Again, the best way to ensure that Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer doesn't hurt Dust too much is to impose a heavy import tax. But even then, CCP will need to figure out how much to tax and possibly adjust it over time as both the ISK value in Eve and that of Dust eventually reach a state of equilibrium. If that ever happens, there may one day be no need for import taxes between the two.

I'm not going for the import tax idea. A huge deduction of Eve ISK to Dust, a multiplier for Dust ISK to Eve.. that's a mess.

We should probably address the right problems first; Dust doesn't have as many ways of making ISK as Eve does. Since I'm not an Eve player, I'd like to be filled in on the numbers for a high level Eve player in a large corporation.
As for Dust, there's grinding public matches, planetary conquest (+ the passive ISK from it) , and nothing else. Loyalty points give you a discount.

This is before counting the losses in suits, tanks, and any other assets. We can't sit in front of a rock and get ISK from it, so the only way to profit is in the battles. While this makes sense, there could be more game modes, or player market room, or something.
What really makes this situation difficult to solve is the much larger range of options Eve players have to make ISK, as well as the ability to make so much more of it than when they were new. A new player on Dust might make around 120,000 per match, and 250 - 300,000 ISK per match while proto stomping on publics.

I'm quite sure there's a much larger gap for Eve players.

That last bit is so true. I can't possibly put anymore emphasis on that point. Eve Online's economy is a beast that took 11 years to nurture and perfect. This is why it took CCP too long to fully flesh out Dust's economy. CCP probably didn't know how to carefully connect the two economically at the time without Dust inadvertently screwing up Eve because of some bug they overlooked.

Getting paid the same as everybody else even though you do much more.. yeah, I'm going to say it. Communism; It's what we get when we fight for NPC corps.

I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes.

Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play.

I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run.

Well it can't have any value to you because it can't be traded, what I meant is a number for what 1 Eve ISK would equate to in Dust ISK, (i.e. 117.48 Yen = 1 U.S. Dollar) but I can assume that's not simple to calculate.

So, how much ISK does one of your Eve characters have

Simply because the game economies are vastly different in terms of scale.

A single EVE pilot could fund an entire DUST alliance single-handedly if he wanted to. A billion ISK in DUST could fund a war for weeks on end while in EVE it's not even enough to get a single capital ship. A player can make millions upon billions of ISK in a day in EVE, while doing the same in DUST is much much trickier and usually dependent on entire corps district farming.

Last I checked I'm sitting on about 2.2 billion ISK as well as 1+ billion in assets in EVE, and my last time playing EVE was in 2009. It'd be stupid if I could transfer that to my DUST char.

-Economics is taught
-Taxes, part of economics
-World leaders & their governments, taught

"One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p"

How old is the U.K. compared to the U.S.? Does that have anything to do with the strength of their currencies today? No.
Keep this thread to the point, whatever you're trying to say doesn't even make any sense.

It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.

Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off?

What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK?

I wouldn't support the idea of increasing ISK income from one source such as PvP matches. But I can support the idea of increasing the number of those sources. PvE battles such as fighting against rogue drones or maybe having our very own Sansha Nation Incursions to deal with on the ground are some of the ways to get things started. Bounties against players are another thing since those involve strictly ISK transfers rather than ISK generation. Kind of like Simple Trading.

The ISK transfer part (simple trading and bounties) can help with redistribution of wealth from the larger corps willing to put pay to the individual mercs for a service. Trickle down economics.

The sterling pound used to actually be a pound of sterling silver.. 1 pound of Silver in US dollars is like 260 bux... I think it is pretty similar.

Creating exchange rates constantly for EVE -> DUST would be insane... Not to mention your values are crazy off compared to the two economies and even the use of ISK.

Economics is not taught in the western world at all until post secondary education and has to be elected on by the participate.

Taxes are not part of economics.. The average university graduate could not navigate the tax laws in most westernized countries. Let alone the average citizen

No one learns about their leaders of today in school, How to vote.. Research candidates.. They haven't for a few decades.. Which explains alot...


No Matter how stuck in your opinion that there should be an exchange rate for ISK between the two economies that CCP takes all the RISK on.. It will never make sense in economics and how building game economies work.

The best is having a player that gains benefit from the situation and can turn it into a profit based pass time... Otherwise it is a giant waste of CCP's and our time.

EVE To Dust wrote:
EVE ISK --> Dust ISK = 10 : 1
Example
10 EVE ISK will buy you 1 Dust ISK. So if you send 1000Mil EVE ISK to me you will receive 100Mil Dust ISK

Dust To EVE wrote:
Dust ISK --> EVE ISK = 1 : 4
Example:
1 Dust ISK will buy you 4 EVE ISK. So if you send 100Mil Dust ISK to me you will receive 400Mil EVE ISK

The gap between price and payouts in the two games could be much smaller than it is now, though. The current ratios are ridiculous, my current most expensive suit is about 155,000 ISK, how does that compare to the cost of a frigate?

I also care about the lore and the immersion aspect, which I believe is hindered by the fact that there isn't any real economic transfers between the Eve pilots and mercenaries, it creates two almost completely isolated worlds in New Eden.

Let's come up with some numbers for a start, though. In the 86,400,000 ISK made (Eve noob) and the 12,960,000 (Dust noob) model from before, the ratio is about 6.6667 - 1. What if we multiply the Dust numbers x4 for assets and payout? 64,000,000 ISK for the Dust noob a full day.

Sorry, but that label doesn't apply here. You get paid by corporate entities, not governments.You also get paid more based on your Loyalty Rank, how hard you work, and how efficiently you work. The NPC corps don't pay you the same flat rate forever. Just like how corporations in the real world pay you more the longer and more efficient you work for them. Eve Online NPC corps pay you more as well per mission the more standings you have with them. They also pay you a bonus for completing the mission within a short amount of time (usually within half an hour) even though they give you almost a whole day to finish the mission.

Again, the best way to ensure that Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer doesn't hurt Dust too much is to impose a heavy import tax. But even then, CCP will need to figure out how much to tax and possibly adjust it over time as both the ISK value in Eve and that of Dust eventually reach a state of equilibrium. If that ever happens, there may one day be no need for import taxes between the two.

You can buy a Bantam frigate for about 200,000 isk unfitted, or put up a buy order and probably pick one up for about 100,000 isk.

From the exchange's history, linked in the earlier post, the exchange rate has lingered mostly between 1:5 and 1:10. I think you could multiply every isk figure in Dust514 by a factor of 6, and wind up pretty close to a 1:1 exchange rate with Eve Online. Every Dust isk number would have to be multiplied by 6 in order to avoid any change to the incentives Dust players have been working with. Every isk price x6, every match isk payout x6, every isk wallet x6. Then within Dust the change would have zero net effect. But between Dust and Eve, you'd greatly diminish the difference in isk value between a Dust player's time and an Eve Online player's time. Aurum values would remain untouched.

In the process CCP would create a list of every process that might need future adjustments or patching(to increase payouts by x6; avoiding redundancies that would result in a x36 payout), and the categories within their data tables that underwent the multiplication, so that future adjustments to the entire isk value of the Dust economy would be relatively easy. Small tweaking adjustments should be relatively easy after the first major adjustment.

All of your points of the state of Western education are true. It does need improvement, some countries could learn from Finland and others.

Back to the point though; it isn't a waste of time, it's addressing one of the larger problems that's just been left untouched, presumably because CCP hasn't known how to approach it yet.

You say it would never make sense in economics, well does the current situation make sense to you? Two completely isolated economies using the same standard currency, in completely different rates. Yes, CCP should just leave it like that because you know, it's a waste of their time to look into it.
^Your logic.

Again, the income rates for Dust need to be increased, as well as the cost of assets to balance that out; give a multiplier to income and assets prices, to create a ratio below 1.5 : 1 on a beginner level for Eve and Dust.
Next thing Dust needs, is more ways of making ISK so that running public battles can just be the basic means of income, while other things could produce much more ISK per a certain period of time.

It's another thing Dust doesn't do right; the general income minimum and maximum are way too close to each other.

...Exchanging currency from one closed economy to another closed economy would cause massive problems to both economies.

If i transfered my 2.68 billion to EVE from my DUST account at any reasonable exchange rate that has been said in this thread.... I Will flood EVE with large quantities of ISK that will come from absolutely no where in the game.

It has nothing with making sense to you and everything to do with economics..... Exchanging currency IRL works because of a few people took over nearly every government bank then formed the concept of a world bank.


Exchanging currency from one closed economy to another closed economy would cause massive problems to both economies.

If i transfered my 2.68 billion to EVE from my DUST account at any reasonable exchange rate that has been said in this thread.... I Will flood EVE with large quantities of ISK that will come from absolutely no where in the game.

This is economy braking......

Eve's economy has been closed for over 10 years, The entire way crafting works... Nearly everything being player made.. Costs on goods in EVE established for 10 years of that economy evolving..

We start throwing trillions of ISK into this economy it will break and cause massive problems.

The Economy in DUST is NOTHING like EVE..... Other then using ISK.... Nothing is player made in DUST... The market is NPC stocked with full time items.

The entire way ISK is even used or the value in it is completely different between the two economies.

Paying 30 dollars for a ETC from CCP then getting 500 mil from the sale is one thing... That ISK was made and exists in that closed economy.

Transferring trillions of ISK into that economy will break it.

Transferring EVE ISK out of the economy that hasn't strictly been designed by their economist team could crash a big chunk of their market.

ISK was never meant or designed to transfer directly from one mercenary to one capsuleer.

The only way this would be possible would be if EVE pilots built every item we use in DUST.... If all DUST items where player made and sold? Then maybe in a year or two.

Because you can make ISK 10x quicker in Eve, and the fact that most are already billionaires or whatever, and can transfer a miniscule amount of it here and create a few rich dudes... more so than we have now.

That's my guess. But, then again, we had passive isk from PC which everyone and their mother exploited and nothing was done about the isk in mercs' wallets.

I have so much iskies on my eve pilot... if I was to transfer to my dust toon... I'd run Proto all day everyday babyyyy.

This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust?

Because the game still has a lot of work to do, and this seems like one of the least important aspects of the game.

The only way they could really fix it like you wanted, is to create enough of a Dust/Eve link such that Eve players could decide the value of paying mercs that is balanced by the economic benefits those mercs provide and is offset by the other possible investments.

That would not only require a huge amount of work on the part of CCP with Dust, but also with regards to Eve, assuming they even wanted it.

That also assumes they could get the incentives just right, or else all you do is create a failed market.

Economics are complicated. Let them make a fun game first, then we can worry about this pet project.

-The only way they could really fix it is doing what Gyn and I have stated multiple times, multiply the income and assets numbers by x5 to x6, and increase the income range for Dust.

-The work process would take place entirely within Dust, so to making it safe to open up Dust's economy to Eve.

"Assuming they ever wanted it"
Assuming they wanted to actually implement one of their original selling points in the game, that they showed in multiple trailers. Nah, that would be silly.