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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
52
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Posted - 2015.01.16 21:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.
Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off?
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
52
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Posted - 2015.01.16 21:48:00 -
[2] - Quote
pumping up wrote:Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk.
That's interesting.. it's not really much of an economy if Eve ISK and Dust ISK don't share the same strength. I'm sure they could change that if they tried, though.
Without any economic interaction the connection between Eve and Dust is miniscule...
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
52
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Posted - 2015.01.16 21:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
pumping up wrote:Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk.
What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK?
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
52
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Posted - 2015.01.16 22:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jack McReady wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Because no matter how much Isk you'd transfer, there are people in Eve who'd make that seem like a drop in the bucket. this, several eve characters (mine included) could buy up anything in dust if you could transfer isk with a 1 to 1 ratio. Helghus Resther wrote:What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? at the current state dust isk is worthless imho (or it has no value in eve for me)
Well it can't have any value to you because it can't be traded, what I meant is a number for what 1 Eve ISK would equate to in Dust ISK, (i.e. 117.48 Yen = 1 U.S. Dollar) but I can assume that's not simple to calculate.
So, how much ISK does one of your Eve characters have
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
52
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Posted - 2015.01.16 23:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
I'll just do a rough calculation based off of the information I've gotten so far
Let's say the new Eve player is mining Vespar for 24 hours and is making 900,000 ISK per 15 minutes. That would be 196 payments of 900,000 ISK; 86,400,000 ISK. A player who just started Dust and is using militia suits, but he's in academy mode, let's say he makes 180,000 ISK a match, in all 20 minute skirmish matches that day. 72 x 180,000 = 12,960,000 ISK. The Eve player would make 73,440,000 more ISK than the Dust player that day.
This generally only tells us that a Dust player wouldn't be able to provide much for an Eve player, but an Eve player could make the Dust player infinitely rich with their ISK (relative to the cost of assets on Dust)
This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust?
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.16 23:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Maken Tosch wrote: ... So proportionately speaking, we're looking at an Eve-to-Dust ISK Ratio of between 5:1 and 33:1 depending on which Eve profession you're comparing Ambush grinding to. That's a huge difference. ...
That is consistent with my experience running an exchange for a little more than a year. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread.A few links to notable posts from that thread: Links to google doc spreadsheet showing the past year's exchanges, which if you wait for them to load, include a couple of spiffy charts. A post detailing the right way to purchase Dust isk for real money. If anyone here is interested, I'll update those calculations. A follow up post detailing the comparative dollar value of time spent playing Dust. Looking forward, I'm hopeful that CCP will develop and release Legion with a robust built in currency exchange between Eve and Legion, completely free from the risks inherent in players doing business with each other. Until then, shop around and feel free to ask any questions, -Gyn Wallace/Min Lo
I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.17 00:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:I don't think the currencies should have to be processed like that though. There's a lot less in Dust right now than Eve, they could just increase the payouts and cost of assets to better match them with Eve.
I agree, because what you're really trying to match up is the amount of time players in each game have to spend to earn some profit. Unfortunately, achieving that kind of parity, is kind of ugly for people who care about lore. Earning enough isk to buy a frigate takes an Eve player somewhere between 10 minutes (for newer players) or about 2 seconds (if that, for vets). Earning enough isk to buy a pricey proto suit takes about 5 to 15 minutes. Do you want a Dust proto-dropsuit to cost more isk than a frigate, a spaceship that can carry hundreds of people at FTL speeds? Some people don't because it diminishes their sense of immersive game play. I do. I don't care what they have to do to the lore, but the economics can't be based on the idea that Dust players will value their time at 1/10th the value of an Eve player's time. That simply can't work in the long run.
I see where you're coming from here, and I do agree; I don't think it would make sense for a Dust suit to cost more than an Eve ship, unless said suit happened to be immensely overpowered compared to the others, which would only cause further complications.
The gap between price and payouts in the two games could be much smaller than it is now, though. The current ratios are ridiculous, my current most expensive suit is about 155,000 ISK, how does that compare to the cost of a frigate?
I also care about the lore and the immersion aspect, which I believe is hindered by the fact that there isn't any real economic transfers between the Eve pilots and mercenaries, it creates two almost completely isolated worlds in New Eden.
Let's come up with some numbers for a start, though. In the 86,400,000 ISK made (Eve noob) and the 12,960,000 (Dust noob) model from before, the ratio is about 6.6667 - 1. What if we multiply the Dust numbers x4 for assets and payout? 64,000,000 ISK for the Dust noob a full day.
This brings the ratio to a much closer 1.35 - 1. The new Dust merc makes 720,000 ISK a match and spends 9,800 ISK for each militia suit restock. Proto suits at about 144,000 each, something like this could be developed.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.17 01:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.
Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA? Surely the two economies must be similar. One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught. Interesting.
It would seem that you bluntly overlooked one of the primary points that about, everyone else saw. Maybe you didn't read half of my other posts.
Interesting.
Read my other post, I thought of an example plan that brings the Eve to Dust rates to 1.35 - 1. It's an example of what CCP should do, since the Eve and Dust economes are completely separated and having radically different values.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.17 01:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:It's something that could open a world of more options, besides it's how CCP themselves portrayed it; Eve pilots paying Dust mercenaries to fight for districts on ground.
Maybe Dust players could pay Eve players to provide orbital support in planetary conquest. Why is it something that's blocked off? Why don't we let Japan start trading it's currency 1 yen for 1 dollar with the USA? Surely the two economies must be similar. One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p We teach kids in high-school specialized math they will never use unless for specific professions... Yet basic Economics, how to pay your taxes and how to research your leaders and vote are lessons not taught. Interesting.
-Economics is taught -Taxes, part of economics -World leaders & their governments, taught
"One civilization is thousands of years old... The other a few hundred... What could be the harm? :p"
How old is the U.K. compared to the U.S.? Does that have anything to do with the strength of their currencies today? No. Keep this thread to the point, whatever you're trying to say doesn't even make any sense.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.17 02:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:How about a 99.9% tax rate for giving isk to dust mercs? That means that if you donate 1,000,000 isk, the dust merk will get 1k
Seems like a very bad idea. Who would receive that 99% Anyway? CBD Corporation?
I still think that the assets and payout numbers for Dust should have around a 5x multiplier to make open economic interactions work between Eve and Dust.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
56
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Posted - 2015.01.17 02:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:pumping up wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:pumping up wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:So if Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer is ever allowed once again to be turned on, we would first need some kind of heavy tax imposed on ISK coming from Eve based on the value of ISK between the two games. There is a much easier way, which might be used for legion, inflate the prices of all items dust and up the isk creation accordingly. Problem with that. Legion is likely to allow players to have full control of the prices since Legion is suppose to be the game that gets a player-controlled secondary market. Where is the problem with my above statement ? That still works even with inflated prices, does it not?edit: Either way, they could also just introduce a second currency, dust-credits or w/e. Let's talk about this for a bit. Please correct me if I'm wrong. "...inflate the prices of all items dust..."This is assuming that CCP would be willing to do that. Knowing CCP very well when it comes to secondary markets, the only items they will likely directly adjust would be militia level items or other starter gear. That and the price of AURUM for the AUR consumables. Since we know that Legion will likely have a player-run secondary market, the prices will be determined by several factors. These factors are:
- How much ISK Player A earns?
- How much ISK Player B wants for selling Item C?
- How badly Player A needs Items C from Player B?
- How much ISK Player A is willing to spend for Item C?
- How did Player B acquire Item C in the first place?
- How much did it cost Player B to acquire said item?
- How difficult is it to acquire Item C?
These factors are what drive the market forces. We refer to these market forces as "The Laws of Supply & Demand". Investopedia explains it better and Eve Online follows these laws very closely. So you see, CCP can't just simply adjust prices of most things without first upsetting almost everyone involved. Eve Online was originally NPC driven with its market back in its early days. But eventually the NPC market gave way to the secondary market and later industry which gave players almost full control of the market. Almost everything in Eve, from ships to POSes, to turrets, to ammo, to fuel, and to colonies, was created and handled by the players. Since CCP Rattati is already talking about one day introducing Simple Trading along with Simple Crafting possibly in March 2015 (if the Trello Roadmap is anything to rely on) for Dust 514, this could be the beginning of the end of the NPC-seeded market. We already have the basic principle of Simple Crafting implemented in Dust via the Strongboxes and Hacked Encryption Keys. Put together material A with material B to get Item C. This is the beginning of Industry. "...up the isk creation accordingly."This is the main problem I wanted to point out. It's really not that simple. Once Simple Trading and Simple Crafting is implemented, there will be Dust players who will dedicate themselves making a profit strictly from either trading or manufacturing once they are able to overcome the initial upfront cost to get started and once they have effectively predicted market trends which is very tricky to do and it's not without its risks. For every player that is not fighting in a Skirmish, Ambush, or Domination match, is a player that is not injecting ISK into the economy. Marketeers and Industrialists are such players. They don't generate ISK. They merely transfer it from buyer to seller. The balance between ISK generation and ISK transfer can impact the supply and demand of an item. There is also having to watch out for exploiters which have been known to affect the market in Eve Online in a negative way. CCP's security team can explain that part better than I could. Don't ask me what exploits were used in Eve as that will require assaulting your eyes with all sorts of game-mechanic mumbo jumbo you probably won't even understand. So you can't just up the ISK generation and hope for the best. The ISK generation will need to be balanced with everything else while trying to account for every possible scenario including edge cases -- which is impossible to accurately predict. Again, the best way to ensure that Eve-to-Dust ISK transfer doesn't hurt Dust too much is to impose a heavy import tax. But even then, CCP will need to figure out how much to tax and possibly adjust it over time as both the ISK value in Eve and that of Dust eventually reach a state of equilibrium. If that ever happens, there may one day be no need for import taxes between the two.
I'm not going for the import tax idea. A huge deduction of Eve ISK to Dust, a multiplier for Dust ISK to Eve.. that's a mess.
We should probably address the right problems first; Dust doesn't have as many ways of making ISK as Eve does. Since I'm not an Eve player, I'd like to be filled in on the numbers for a high level Eve player in a large corporation. As for Dust, there's grinding public matches, planetary conquest (+ the passive ISK from it) , and nothing else. Loyalty points give you a discount.
This is before counting the losses in suits, tanks, and any other assets. We can't sit in front of a rock and get ISK from it, so the only way to profit is in the battles. While this makes sense, there could be more game modes, or player market room, or something. What really makes this situation difficult to solve is the much larger range of options Eve players have to make ISK, as well as the ability to make so much more of it than when they were new. A new player on Dust might make around 120,000 per match, and 250 - 300,000 ISK per match while proto stomping on publics.
I'm quite sure there's a much larger gap for Eve players.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 03:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:TEBOW BAGGINS wrote:we used to expect this but it died somewhere.. that was one of the original selling points of this game was that we would be funded by EVE players... in turn that funding would boost there planetary interaction resources by us owning districts of actual planets they were after.. one experimental FPS does not just simply walk into the EVE economy tho.. That last bit is so true. I can't possibly put anymore emphasis on that point. Eve Online's economy is a beast that took 11 years to nurture and perfect. This is why it took CCP too long to fully flesh out Dust's economy. CCP probably didn't know how to carefully connect the two economically at the time without Dust inadvertently screwing up Eve because of some bug they overlooked.
There isn't a way the way things are now; Income gaps in public matches between new players and all-proto vets are less than 1,000,000 ISK a battle, more specifically about 250,000 - 300,000 ISK apart. Planetary conquest matches will give about 3 - 5 million of ISK payout a battle, but the clone packs are at least 50,000,000 ISK. I'm not sure of the passive ISK numbers though.
Still, the first step (1) of fixing the segregated economies is a multiplier of Dust ISK and payout, something around x5 - x6 as stated before. it brings the ratio below 1.5/1 on the lowest level of Eve - Dust production; a new player in Academy on Dust and a new Eve pilot mining vespar. With the scenario from before, there's a 1.35 - 1 ratio there. 2 explains why that still doesn't fix the problems.
(2) The income gaps in Dust are also bad. Very bad. Public NPC corporations aren't going to pay you much more for being a full prototype assault leading the team to victory, than they would if you were totally new to the game and getting 1-14, 200 war points. Public matches will get you anywhere from 50,000 to 370,000 ISK a battle in most situations. The new Eve pilot goes on to producing past 10x what he was before by mining asteroids, not risking any losses. The Dust mercenary; stuck below even 400,000 ISK per a 20 minute match, assuming he died even twice in a prototype suit could mean about 170,000 to 300,000 ISK is gone from the 287,000 ISK that they were likely paid out.
Getting paid the same as everybody else even though you do much more.. yeah, I'm going to say it. Communism; It's what we get when we fight for NPC corps.
[b]The basically pathetic amount of income Dust mercenaries make renders being a "lone mercenary" nothing more than a joke,[b] as they'd have no way to supply themselves with much based on their pay, regardless if they get 3,000+ war points that battle or not. It's the sad truth; Eve player's wealth can keep multiplying while mining alone while Dust players' is pretty much locked below 400,000K in public, making it so that 1.35 - 1 ratio that the x5 multiplier closed the gap to, is now rapidly expanded as the Eve player's income rate increases and the Dust players slightly fluctuates in the same general area.
Point here is - ways for Dust players to make much, much more ISK need to be introduced. I can help think of ideas for that too.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I wouldn't support the idea of increasing ISK income from one source such as PvP matches. But I can support the idea of increasing the number of those sources. PvE battles such as fighting against rogue drones or maybe having our very own Sansha Nation Incursions to deal with on the ground are some of the ways to get things started. Bounties against players are another thing since those involve strictly ISK transfers rather than ISK generation. Kind of like Simple Trading.
The ISK transfer part (simple trading and bounties) can help with redistribution of wealth from the larger corps willing to put pay to the individual mercs for a service. Trickle down economics.
That needs to happen for Eve - Dust interaction, or else Dust ISK numbers will remain as less than pocket change to Eve players.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 15:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:
The sterling pound used to actually be a pound of sterling silver.. 1 pound of Silver in US dollars is like 260 bux... I think it is pretty similar.
Creating exchange rates constantly for EVE -> DUST would be insane... Not to mention your values are crazy off compared to the two economies and even the use of ISK.
Economics is not taught in the western world at all until post secondary education and has to be elected on by the participate.
Taxes are not part of economics.. The average university graduate could not navigate the tax laws in most westernized countries. Let alone the average citizen
No one learns about their leaders of today in school, How to vote.. Research candidates.. They haven't for a few decades.. Which explains alot...
No Matter how stuck in your opinion that there should be an exchange rate for ISK between the two economies that CCP takes all the RISK on.. It will never make sense in economics and how building game economies work.
The best is having a player that gains benefit from the situation and can turn it into a profit based pass time... Otherwise it is a giant waste of CCP's and our time.
All of your points of the state of Western education are true. It does need improvement, some countries could learn from Finland and others.
Back to the point though; it isn't a waste of time, it's addressing one of the larger problems that's just been left untouched, presumably because CCP hasn't known how to approach it yet.
You say it would never make sense in economics, well does the current situation make sense to you? Two completely isolated economies using the same standard currency, in completely different rates. Yes, CCP should just leave it like that because you know, it's a waste of their time to look into it. ^Your logic.
Again, the income rates for Dust need to be increased, as well as the cost of assets to balance that out; give a multiplier to income and assets prices, to create a ratio below 1.5 : 1 on a beginner level for Eve and Dust. Next thing Dust needs, is more ways of making ISK so that running public battles can just be the basic means of income, while other things could produce much more ISK per a certain period of time.
It's another thing Dust doesn't do right; the general income minimum and maximum are way too close to each other.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
demonkiller 12 wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:pumping up wrote:Basically, the only link between dust and eve is FW bombardments. Even those aren't very interactive. It's just that the economies are totally seperated and on a total different scale. 1 eve isk isn't worth the same as 1 dust isk. What would you estimate to be the power of 1 Eve ISK converted to 1 Dust ISK? EVE To Dust wrote: EVE ISK --> Dust ISK = 10 : 1 Example 10 EVE ISK will buy you 1 Dust ISK. So if you send 1000Mil EVE ISK to me you will receive 100Mil Dust ISK Dust To EVE wrote: Dust ISK --> EVE ISK = 1 : 4 Example: 1 Dust ISK will buy you 4 EVE ISK. So if you send 100Mil Dust ISK to me you will receive 400Mil EVE ISK
That makes no sense. The current value of 100 million ISK in Dust is much higher than the value of 400 million ISK in Eve, and any way making a ratio multiplier/divider from transfers into Dust in Eve is no solution, especially because of the potential income ranges in Eve
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:Getting paid the same as everybody else even though you do much more.. yeah, I'm going to say it. Communism; It's what we get when we fight for NPC corps. Sorry, but that label doesn't apply here. You get paid by corporate entities, not governments.You also get paid more based on your Loyalty Rank, how hard you work, and how efficiently you work. The NPC corps don't pay you the same flat rate forever. Just like how corporations in the real world pay you more the longer and more efficient you work for them. Eve Online NPC corps pay you more as well per mission the more standings you have with them. They also pay you a bonus for completing the mission within a short amount of time (usually within half an hour) even though they give you almost a whole day to finish the mission.
I believe the idea is the relativity. No matter what you do in Dust right now, loyality ranks and all, you will likely not walk out of a public battle with even up to 500,000 ISK payout, minimum payout is around 50,000, and this is before subtracting whatever losses you had that battle, which if you came out of a battle around 500,000 ISK in payout, it's highly likely you were running prototype, and lost an estimated 90K to 170K for every time you died, not counting vehicles.
Essentially, whether you do the get 270 or 3,000+ war points that battle, you will be paid within the same 50-500K bracket, every time.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
57
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Posted - 2015.01.17 16:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gyn Wallace wrote:Helghus Resther wrote:The gap between price and payouts in the two games could be much smaller than it is now, though. The current ratios are ridiculous, my current most expensive suit is about 155,000 ISK, how does that compare to the cost of a frigate?
I also care about the lore and the immersion aspect, which I believe is hindered by the fact that there isn't any real economic transfers between the Eve pilots and mercenaries, it creates two almost completely isolated worlds in New Eden.
Let's come up with some numbers for a start, though. In the 86,400,000 ISK made (Eve noob) and the 12,960,000 (Dust noob) model from before, the ratio is about 6.6667 - 1. What if we multiply the Dust numbers x4 for assets and payout? 64,000,000 ISK for the Dust noob a full day. You can buy a Bantam frigate for about 200,000 isk unfitted, or put up a buy order and probably pick one up for about 100,000 isk. From the exchange's history, linked in the earlier post, the exchange rate has lingered mostly between 1:5 and 1:10. I think you could multiply every isk figure in Dust514 by a factor of 6, and wind up pretty close to a 1:1 exchange rate with Eve Online. Every Dust isk number would have to be multiplied by 6 in order to avoid any change to the incentives Dust players have been working with. Every isk price x6, every match isk payout x6, every isk wallet x6. Then within Dust the change would have zero net effect. But between Dust and Eve, you'd greatly diminish the difference in isk value between a Dust player's time and an Eve Online player's time. Aurum values would remain untouched. In the process CCP would create a list of every process that might need future adjustments or patching(to increase payouts by x6; avoiding redundancies that would result in a x36 payout), and the categories within their data tables that underwent the multiplication, so that future adjustments to the entire isk value of the Dust economy would be relatively easy. Small tweaking adjustments should be relatively easy after the first major adjustment.
^ This.
The next step would be more ways of making ISK in Dust, and/or an increase in what you can make in public matches. An Eve miner's income will greatly differ from what it was when they were mining at Veldspar at beginner level.
If Dust players are stuck within a small income bracket, even with the general Eve - Dust ratios brought much closer together, there would be an imbalance of trade.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
58
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Posted - 2015.01.17 19:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bethhy wrote:
It has nothing with making sense to you and everything to do with economics..... Exchanging currency IRL works because of a few people took over nearly every government bank then formed the concept of a world bank.
Exchanging currency from one closed economy to another closed economy would cause massive problems to both economies.
If i transfered my 2.68 billion to EVE from my DUST account at any reasonable exchange rate that has been said in this thread.... I Will flood EVE with large quantities of ISK that will come from absolutely no where in the game.
This is economy braking......
Eve's economy has been closed for over 10 years, The entire way crafting works... Nearly everything being player made.. Costs on goods in EVE established for 10 years of that economy evolving..
We start throwing trillions of ISK into this economy it will break and cause massive problems.
The Economy in DUST is NOTHING like EVE..... Other then using ISK.... Nothing is player made in DUST... The market is NPC stocked with full time items.
The entire way ISK is even used or the value in it is completely different between the two economies.
Paying 30 dollars for a ETC from CCP then getting 500 mil from the sale is one thing... That ISK was made and exists in that closed economy.
Transferring trillions of ISK into that economy will break it.
Transferring EVE ISK out of the economy that hasn't strictly been designed by their economist team could crash a big chunk of their market.
ISK was never meant or designed to transfer directly from one mercenary to one capsuleer.
The only way this would be possible would be if EVE pilots built every item we use in DUST.... If all DUST items where player made and sold? Then maybe in a year or two.
I don't believe you're understanding. They aren't SUPPOSED to be two closed economies, increasing the income and assets cost rates by x5 - x6 in Dust, and increasing the income range, is supposed to be what is used to merge the economies. You keep restating the same problem that I've proposed the solution plan to.
"If i transfered my 2.68 billion to EVE from my DUST account at any reasonable exchange rate that has been said in this thread.... I Will flood EVE with large quantities of ISK that will come from absolutely no where in the game."
2.86 billion ISK from Dust, 2.86 billion in Eve, with the much wider range of income brackets in Eve that transfer is not economy breaking at all. Trillions of ISK could go into Dust the same as it could come from Dust, and it would only create a larger economy that works the way it was *supposed to* as portrayed as a selling point of the game; Eve players paying Dust players doesn't harm the economy, and ISK coming in from Dust comes in not as large amounts, because of Dust mercenaries' smaller incomes.
"Transferring EVE ISK out of the economy that hasn't strictly been designed by their economist team could crash a big chunk of their market."
Senseless theory. ISK lost from the battle of B-R5RB didn't crash part of the market, I don't see why ISK that happens to be transferred into Dust would.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
58
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Posted - 2015.01.17 23:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Because you can make ISK 10x quicker in Eve, and the fact that most are already billionaires or whatever, and can transfer a miniscule amount of it here and create a few rich dudes... more so than we have now.
That's my guess. But, then again, we had passive isk from PC which everyone and their mother exploited and nothing was done about the isk in mercs' wallets.
Putting a x5 to x6 multiplier on battle payout and ISK market prices brings the Eve to Dust ratio below 1.5 at low level production for an Eve player and a Dust player. Then, there's the need for a higher income range for Dust 514; Different ways to make ISK, like new game modes and player-run Eve corporations contracting mercenaries. That way Dust players aren't left in the same income bracket they start off with, while Eve players go on to producing much more.
From this point, currency flowing between Dust and Eve doesn't hurt the economy, but expands it.
It would increase the interconnection between Eve and Dust greatly. Eve corporations can contract Dust mercenaries to fight on ground, Dust mercenaries could pay Eve capsuleers for orbital support. This is what I think CCP should be working on.. not the skill tree.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
58
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Posted - 2015.01.17 23:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
Warbot Titan X wrote:I have so much iskies on my eve pilot... if I was to transfer to my dust toon... I'd run Proto all day everyday babyyyy.
That's if the Dust rates weren't increased
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
59
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Posted - 2015.01.18 00:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
One Eyed King wrote:Helghus Resther wrote: This isn't an economy that actually has any function as a whole though, so why doesn't CCP just increase the battle payout and marketplace prices in Dust?
Because the game still has a lot of work to do, and this seems like one of the least important aspects of the game. The only way they could really fix it like you wanted, is to create enough of a Dust/Eve link such that Eve players could decide the value of paying mercs that is balanced by the economic benefits those mercs provide and is offset by the other possible investments. That would not only require a huge amount of work on the part of CCP with Dust, but also with regards to Eve, assuming they even wanted it. That also assumes they could get the incentives just right, or else all you do is create a failed market. Economics are complicated. Let them make a fun game first, then we can worry about this pet project.
-The only way they could really fix it is doing what Gyn and I have stated multiple times, multiply the income and assets numbers by x5 to x6, and increase the income range for Dust.
-The work process would take place entirely within Dust, so to making it safe to open up Dust's economy to Eve.
"Assuming they ever wanted it" Assuming they wanted to actually implement one of their original selling points in the game, that they showed in multiple trailers. Nah, that would be silly.
" Let them make a fun game first, then we can worry about this pet project."
I think if what they were really trying to do was make this game fun, they've failed. Dust lies in an awkward position where there's barely any interaction between Eve and Dust, yet they won't make it a standalone game with fast pace mechanics, something that would attract many more people to play for fun.
This is the reason why I propose this; Obviously economic interaction between the two games is supposed to be there, and as it is there's not too much else going on that something like merging the economies can't be worked on.
You guys sit here and act like adding one new game mode, adding Minmatar and Amarr vehicles, nerfing and buffing certain weapons will make the game much better and more fun. It won't. Economic interaction means that not only do Dust players have a chance to rise greatly above their current income bracket, they can have an affect on the Eve players who have no reason to care about Dust's existence.
If CCP isn't going to do this, then they might as well turn it into Call of Duty in the future, because I know that would do MUCH better than Dust is right now.
If only more people were proactive like Rattati. The real problems would be addressed.
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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Helghus Resther
Heisen Republic
60
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Posted - 2015.01.18 18:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quite sure a dev or two as well as some of the CPM have seen this thread, but why not bump it anyway?
The winner of this war will not prove who's right; only, who's left.
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