DUST Search - Mass Drivers & Ammunition

Atiim wrote:

As many players know, Mass Drivers have a very limited ammunition total.

While I'm fine with it not having as much ammo as other types of weapons, there is a problem with it having too little ammo as the amount of kills it can obtain before needing a resupply is disproportionate with other weapons.

Kills Per Capacity

For example, it takes (on average) about 24 rounds to kill the average suit with a CR. Since CRs have a maximum of 325 rounds, that means you can kill about 14 enemies before needing to replenish your ammunition.

However, it takes about 4 rounds to kill an enemy with the Mass Driver, meaning you can only kill 5 players before having to replenish your ammunition. Not only is that disproportional, but that's not even enough to kill an entire squad.

Additional Kills With Ammunition Skill

Then we have the Ammunition skills, which makes things even more disproportionate. At Ammo V, the CR receives an extra 81 rounds, allowing it to kill an extra 4 people. On the other hand, the MD receives 6 rounds, which only allows it to kill 1 extra player.

Only being able to kill 1 extra player isn't worth the SP investment, especially when the CR allows you to kill 4 extra players with the same SP costs.

My Solution

Mass Driers are a Launcher, and have AoE capabilities, which means that they should still have a lower KPC than the Conventional Rifles. However, I believe that the gap needs to be reduced from 66% to somewhere reasonable, such as 35%.

That in mind, I believe that they should have an ammo capacity of 36 (30 in reserve, with 6 in the mag). Then, the Ammo skill should be +2.5 rounds per level (giving it +3 max kills instead of only +1 max kills).

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Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14814	Posted - 2015.01.04 00:22:00 - [1] - Quote As many players know, Mass Drivers have a very limited ammunition total. While I'm fine with it not having as much ammo as other types of weapons, there is a problem with it having too little ammo as the amount of kills it can obtain before needing a resupply is disproportionate with other weapons. Kills Per Capacity For example, it takes (on average) about 24 rounds to kill the average suit with a CR. Since CRs have a maximum of 325 rounds, that means you can kill about 14 enemies before needing to replenish your ammunition. However, it takes about 4 rounds to kill an enemy with the Mass Driver, meaning you can only kill 5 players before having to replenish your ammunition. Not only is that disproportional, but that's not even enough to kill an entire squad. Additional Kills With Ammunition Skill Then we have the Ammunition skills, which makes things even more disproportionate. At Ammo V, the CR receives an extra 81 rounds, allowing it to kill an extra 4 people. On the other hand, the MD receives 6 rounds, which only allows it to kill 1 extra player. Only being able to kill 1 extra player isn't worth the SP investment, especially when the CR allows you to kill 4 extra players with the same SP costs. My Solution Mass Driers are a Launcher, which means that they should still have a lower KPC than the Conventional RIfles. However, I believe that the gap needs to be reduced from 66% to somewhere reasonable, such as 20%. That in mind, I believe that they should have an ammo capacity of 44 (36 in reserve, with 6 in the mag). Then, the Ammo skill should be +2.5 rounds per level (giving it +3 max kills instead of only +1 max kills). The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound 2429	Posted - 2015.01.04 01:06:00 - [2] - Quote I would counter that the mass driver has much greater potential to cause damage than a CR. The CR has more kill potential than the MD, but the CR can only hit one target at a time. A MD can hit several. However, I am definitely all for increasing ammo some. Suppose we increase it to 36 rounds total (6 in weapon, 30 in reserve)? Do not go gentle into that good night; Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Doc DDD TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 280	Posted - 2015.01.04 01:16:00 - [3] - Quote The mass driver does not need a buff in anyway /thread
Her Chosen Grade No.2 196	Posted - 2015.01.04 03:45:00 - [4] - Quote I'm sorry, but any weapon that allows you to miss your opponent 6m to the left, or right, does not need a buff. It's a low-skill weapon, meant for casual players. It should not generate as many kills or have the same effects as aim-based weapons. STRONG BOX ROLE CALL
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 16401	Posted - 2015.01.04 03:49:00 - [5] - Quote Gis those rebellious bastards moar ammo! *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14820	Posted - 2015.01.04 04:45:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would counter that the mass driver has much greater potential to cause damage than a CR. The CR has more kill potential than the MD, but the CR can only hit one target at a time. A MD can hit several. However, I am definitely all for increasing ammo some. Suppose we increase it to 36 rounds total (6 in weapon, 30 in reserve)? This seems reasonable, I'll edit the OP to reflect this idea. Her Chosen wrote: I'm sorry, but any weapon that allows you to miss your opponent 6m to the left, or right, does not need a buff. It's a low-skill weapon, meant for casual players. It should not generate as many kills or have the same effects as aim-based weapons. So a weapon which requires you to calculate the trajectory and travel time for each round after 10m takes less skill than a weapon which requires you to point at a target and keep clicking until you see a +50 on your screen from at least 60m away? I know logic isn't one of your strengths, but lol. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 4954	Posted - 2015.01.04 06:55:00 - [7] - Quote Suuuure! (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.pâ+n+ín+ƒ. LASERS BTCH!!!!!!
RodLong VonHugendong Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2015.01.04 07:53:00 - [8] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would counter that the mass driver has much greater potential to cause damage than a CR. The CR has more kill potential than the MD, but the CR can only hit one target at a time. A MD can hit several. However, I am definitely all for increasing ammo some. Suppose we increase it to 36 rounds total (6 in weapon, 30 in reserve)? indeed... to add to what all of you have posted, i believe that would merit the MD at least 1 if not 2 more meta level. i am new and i see that the CR is very much so user friendly. the MD seems less, by a large margin! i think i have killed myself with it more than others! wait... I'm supposed to put something clever here right?
killian178 Random Gunz RISE of LEGION 66	Posted - 2015.01.04 16:19:00 - [9] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: I'm sorry, but any weapon that allows you to miss your opponent 6m to the left, or right, does not need a buff. It's a low-skill weapon, meant for casual players. It should not generate as many kills or have the same effects as aim-based weapons. Nooooo, the MD used to be a no skill weapoon that rewarded skilled users immensely. After 1.4 or whatever, when youd see an entire team spamming them, it was nerfed. And if ccp does anything well, its nerfing things into the ground. Now all its really good for are taking out red eqp. It not that bad really, does really good on the minmando, but imo thats the only time it excells Every commando k.o, every weapon at adv or above. Don't give a damn bout my kdr, I will kill you.
Doshneil Antaro Dem Durrty Boyz General Tso's Alliance 318	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:14:00 - [10] - Quote Adding more ammo seems like a great idea especially with the amount of rounds it takes to drop heavies with their over the top resistances to explosive weapons. I'd like to see it with a slightly faster travel time. Not at the old levels mind you, but currently the flaylock feels so much better to use due to the travel time. Sage /thread

Zindorak Nyain Chan General Tso's Alliance 1552	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:25:00 - [11] - Quote I agree MD's have really low Ammo capacity and im forced to run it on a logi to fit all those hives so i can harass with it for the entire match Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
Gyn Wallace OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 174	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:34:00 - [12] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: I'm sorry, but any weapon that allows you to miss your opponent 6m to the left, or right, does not need a buff. It's a low-skill weapon, meant for casual players. It should not generate as many kills or have the same effects as aim-based weapons. Imagine the rounds from your Combat rifle traveling a third as quickly, so that you couldn't use the controler's aim assist, or you'd always miss your target if its moving sideways. You now have to actually aim your own weapon instead of letting the game software aim for you. Now imagine having to lead your target by more than 6m, if you don't want them to escape the splash area, and you're starting to figure out how to damage people with this "no skill" weapon, with the slowest time to kill of any weapon in the game, including side-arms, and an ammo capacity so low that its completely suicidal to run it without nanohives. The mass driver could use a small buff without becoming OP. If the choice is between being placed back on the CCP buff/nerf rollercoaster and staying as it is, I'm fine with the MD as it is. But if CCP could buff the MD slightly, it could use a little buff. Quick question, does anyone run the mass driver without carrying nanohives? No other weapon makes carrying nanohives pretty much a requirement, because of its low kill ammo capacity. The Dust/Eve Isk Exchange Thread
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 41	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:36:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: As many players know, Mass Drivers have a very limited ammunition total. While I'm fine with it not having as much ammo as other types of weapons, there is a problem with it having too little ammo as the amount of kills it can obtain before needing a resupply is disproportionate with other weapons. Kills Per Capacity For example, it takes (on average) about 24 rounds to kill the average suit with a CR. Since CRs have a maximum of 325 rounds, that means you can kill about 14 enemies before needing to replenish your ammunition. However, it takes about 4 rounds to kill an enemy with the Mass Driver, meaning you can only kill 5 players before having to replenish your ammunition. Not only is that disproportional, but that's not even enough to kill an entire squad. Additional Kills With Ammunition Skill Then we have the Ammunition skills, which makes things even more disproportionate. At Ammo V, the CR receives an extra 81 rounds, allowing it to kill an extra 4 people. On the other hand, the MD receives 6 rounds, which only allows it to kill 1 extra player. Only being able to kill 1 extra player isn't worth the SP investment, especially when the CR allows you to kill 4 extra players with the same SP costs. My Solution Mass Driers are a Launcher, and have AoE capabilities, which means that they should still have a lower KPC than the Conventional Rifles. However, I believe that the gap needs to be reduced from 66% to somewhere reasonable, such as 35%. That in mind, I believe that they should have an ammo capacity of 36 (30 in reserve, with 6 in the mag). Then, the Ammo skill should be +2.5 rounds per level (giving it +3 max kills instead of only +1 max kills). No. Emperor Gucci
We are 138 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 598	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:39:00 - [14] - Quote Flux grenade. Burst scrabler pistol side arm. Nano hives. What's the problem again? Hello? any one there?
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 41	Posted - 2015.01.04 17:57:00 - [15] - Quote Atiim wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: I would counter that the mass driver has much greater potential to cause damage than a CR. The CR has more kill potential than the MD, but the CR can only hit one target at a time. A MD can hit several. However, I am definitely all for increasing ammo some. Suppose we increase it to 36 rounds total (6 in weapon, 30 in reserve)? This seems reasonable, I'll edit the OP to reflect this idea. Her Chosen wrote: I'm sorry, but any weapon that allows you to miss your opponent 6m to the left, or right, does not need a buff. It's a low-skill weapon, meant for casual players. It should not generate as many kills or have the same effects as aim-based weapons. So a weapon which requires you to calculate the trajectory and travel time for each round after 10m takes less skill than a weapon which requires you to point at a target and keep clicking until you see a +50 on your screen from at least 60m away? I know logic isn't one of your strengths, but lol. Obviously logic isn't one of yours....its an area denial weapon not 1v1....what is adding extra rounds goin to do? require more skill? nope just more MD shots to spam. Amarr assualts always die to MD shots....If anything nerfffffffffffffffffffffffff Emperor Gucci
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 1842	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:12:00 - [16] - Quote We are 138 wrote: Flux grenade. Burst scrabler pistol side arm. Nano hives. What's the problem again? having to spend more resources per kill isn't a 'solution' to a complaint about the comparative lack of resources a mass driver has and how many it has to spend to secure a kill in the first place. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Fizzer XCIV Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 1988	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:30:00 - [17] - Quote I honestly dont see an issue. There are more weapons that can only reasonably get 5-6 kills with all their ammo. The Laser Rifle comes to mind... Home at Last <3
Sergeant Sazu Nanite Systems 300	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:40:00 - [18] - Quote I regularly use the Assault Mass Driver. By nature, it is a weak, spam-happy weapon. Runs out of ammo fast with comparitively little results. Splash damage/radius should remain untouched, but I'm down with more ammo. I doubt it would be as broken as people fear. [38.1m SP - Next skill: Active Scanner Operation 2] Veteran Assault - Expert Logibro - Aspiring Minja - Scrub Sentinel
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2746	Posted - 2015.01.04 19:10:00 - [19] - Quote I think a minor base increase plus a Min Assault bonus to ammo (including Flaylock) would be a good idea. 36rds seems like a lot though. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Sir Dukey Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1460	Posted - 2015.01.04 19:31:00 - [20] - Quote Atiim wrote: As many players know, Mass Drivers have a very limited ammunition total. While I'm fine with it not having as much ammo as other types of weapons, there is a problem with it having too little ammo as the amount of kills it can obtain before needing a resupply is disproportionate with other weapons. Kills Per Capacity For example, it takes (on average) about 24 rounds to kill the average suit with a CR. Since CRs have a maximum of 325 rounds, that means you can kill about 14 enemies before needing to replenish your ammunition. However, it takes about 4 rounds to kill an enemy with the Mass Driver, meaning you can only kill 5 players before having to replenish your ammunition. Not only is that disproportional, but that's not even enough to kill an entire squad. Additional Kills With Ammunition Skill Then we have the Ammunition skills, which makes things even more disproportionate. At Ammo V, the CR receives an extra 81 rounds, allowing it to kill an extra 4 people. On the other hand, the MD receives 6 rounds, which only allows it to kill 1 extra player. Only being able to kill 1 extra player isn't worth the SP investment, especially when the CR allows you to kill 4 extra players with the same SP costs. My Solution Mass Driers are a Launcher, and have AoE capabilities, which means that they should still have a lower KPC than the Conventional Rifles. However, I believe that the gap needs to be reduced from 66% to somewhere reasonable, such as 35%. That in mind, I believe that they should have an ammo capacity of 36 (30 in reserve, with 6 in the mag). Then, the Ammo skill should be +2.5 rounds per level (giving it +3 max kills instead of only +1 max kills). All ScP's need more Ammo, snipers need more Ammo, Assault Rifles need more Ammo, bolt pistols need more Ammo, MD needs more ammo, Flaylock needs more ammo, PLC needs more ammo. Boom! EDIT: Burst ScP definitely needs way more Ammo. It has same ammo as other ScP's but it's clip is 28 and total ammo is like 46 excluding the 28 clip. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris

NIGGSWORM Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance 1465	Posted - 2015.01.04 19:31:00 - [21] - Quote Atiim wrote: As many players know, Mass Drivers have a very limited ammunition total. While I'm fine with it not having as much ammo as other types of weapons, there is a problem with it having too little ammo as the amount of kills it can obtain before needing a resupply is disproportionate with other weapons. Kills Per Capacity For example, it takes (on average) about 24 rounds to kill the average suit with a CR. Since CRs have a maximum of 325 rounds, that means you can kill about 14 enemies before needing to replenish your ammunition. However, it takes about 4 rounds to kill an enemy with the Mass Driver, meaning you can only kill 5 players before having to replenish your ammunition. Not only is that disproportional, but that's not even enough to kill an entire squad. Additional Kills With Ammunition Skill Then we have the Ammunition skills, which makes things even more disproportionate. At Ammo V, the CR receives an extra 81 rounds, allowing it to kill an extra 4 people. On the other hand, the MD receives 6 rounds, which only allows it to kill 1 extra player. Only being able to kill 1 extra player isn't worth the SP investment, especially when the CR allows you to kill 4 extra players with the same SP costs. My Solution Mass Driers are a Launcher, and have AoE capabilities, which means that they should still have a lower KPC than the Conventional Rifles. However, I believe that the gap needs to be reduced from 66% to somewhere reasonable, such as 35%. That in mind, I believe that they should have an ammo capacity of 36 (30 in reserve, with 6 in the mag). Then, the Ammo skill should be +2.5 rounds per level (giving it +3 max kills instead of only +1 max kills). All ScP's need more Ammo, snipers need more Ammo, Assault Rifles need more Ammo, bolt pistols need more Ammo, MD needs more ammo, Flaylock needs more ammo, PLC needs more ammo. Boom! EDIT: Burst ScP definitely needs way more Ammo. It has same ammo as other ScP's but it's clip is 28 and total ammo is like 46 excluding the 28 clip. Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
taxi bastard Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 273	Posted - 2015.01.04 21:38:00 - [22] - Quote i always carry a reasonable set of nanohives with a MD....... but saying that i do that for most guns so i don't have an issue with the current ammo tbh
KA24DERT TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 975	Posted - 2015.01.05 03:30:00 - [23] - Quote Ammo buff is overdue, especially since the hive change. The Mass Driver fails as a weapon, and the lack of ammo doesn't fit the "support weapon" narrative either. BAN ADVANCED GEAR FROM PUBS \| Mass Driver Advocate
Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 1719	Posted - 2015.01.05 08:32:00 - [24] - Quote the reason why mass driver is not widely used is because you get killed before even the first round drops on your target. only way to utilize the mass driver is to kite and shoot around corners which obviously is not very fun for both sides. Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I think a minor base increase plus a Min Assault bonus to ammo (including Flaylock) would be a good idea. 36rds seems like a lot though. this, imho all assaults suits should have a bonus to all their racial weapons.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1119	Posted - 2015.01.05 12:47:00 - [25] - Quote At least we can all agree that the ammo capacity skill for the mass driver (and the flaylock) is useless. I've been saying this for a while. +2.5 per level would be nice. Anyone who says the Mass driver is a no skill weapon is wrong and probably never used one.
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 14866	Posted - 2015.01.06 14:25:00 - [26] - Quote Bump The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
IZI doro Terminal Courtesy Proficiency V. 31	Posted - 2015.01.06 20:48:00 - [27] - Quote Regarding ammunition, increasing the maximum capacity to 30-36 warheads seems to fall under normal anti-personnel payload conventions (5 - 6 "full magazines"). All the anti-personnel weapons except the MD falls under this convention. Even the anti-armor / launcher weapons offer higher payload capacities (SL: 100,000+hp; PLC: 115,500+hp; MD: 5,400+hp / 2,800+hp) Another issue regarding ammunition is the reload animation. I'd like a individual round reload much like the shotgun, but the internal revolving magazine still needs to swivel out / in. Reload time would be variable depending on the number of units but the minimum is still 3.5 for one round. Ignorance is only a problem when left untreated. Stop the spread of ignorance with a daily dose of knowledge!
Her Chosen Grade No.2 202	Posted - 2015.01.07 01:42:00 - [28] - Quote Sorry, but the last thing we want again is more MD campers on roofs... STRONG BOX ROLE CALL
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5258	Posted - 2015.01.07 02:25:00 - [29] - Quote Being the only weapon in the game to REQUIRE carrying a nanohive, I completely agree. I would argue that using the laser rifle is similar to a mass driver, where you have to expend quite a lot of ammo just to kill even a single person efficiently (wasting ammo to pre-heat to guarantee a kill), and even the laser rifle has 4 clips in reserve. Should it have 30 rounds in reserve? No, I don't agree with that. but increasing the base reserve to 18, and the ammo skill to 2 per level instead of 1 would probably be the best solution. 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Bethhy Ancient Exiles. 2966	Posted - 2015.01.07 07:41:00 - [30] - Quote Mass drivers and flaylocks need to reward the Ammo capacity skill more...



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