1. Stop hating on Amarr specifically. ADS still have a massive kill ratio most games. So do any scouts.


2. Logi are the most obvious case for Tiericide. Make all levels of suit have the same number of slots (Probably should match current proto since that's what most balance has been aimed at). Fittings & base stats make the difference still.
Suddenly we deal with a lot less issues overall.

And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).

You do realize that the defining feature of the Amarr Logi has always been that it gets to tote a sidearm around, right?

And that by removing the sidearm, you kill, in no particular order, the following builds:

Swarm Logi
PLC Logi
Laser Logi
Sniper Logi

And you also pretty much force the Amarr Logi into running non-laser weapons, due to the draconian fitting requirements of lasers in general, and more particularly because the damage profile is so penalizing that it quite frankly requires a second weapon to actually be effective.

It also means that certain weapons are now significantly less viable on the Amarr Logi; Mass Drivers and Shotguns are the two that come to mind the most... though I fully admit that a Shotgun Amarr Logi is pretty bad by default given it's very slow speed and poor durability.

However, the point remains- there's a lot of weapons that are no longer viable on the Amarr Logi if you take the sidearm away. Quite frankly, if such a change went through... I would be quite angry, and would likely respec out of the Amarr Logi entirely.

As several posters have mentioned, there's quite a few people who chose to skill into the Amarr Logi purely because it had that sidearm slot.

Logis do particularly well with Area Denial weapons, such as the Mass Driver.

Another fantastic (Amarr) area denial weapon is the Laser Rifle, which does ....well nothing up close. Which means a sidearm is an excelent idea. Trading an equipment for a sidearm is very reasonable.

Unless of course you have a valid argument to why it should be taken away?

Swarms are still usable with a squad and different tactics. Lol PLC on any serious suit. Reduction of offensive capability is exactly what being a logi means. Snipers just hide in the redline (or are pretty much insta-killed regardless).

Lasers don't have that bad of fitting, at least to the point of making your suit unusable. They're also good on their own except for armor heavies and heavily tanked armor meds.

But again, the focus of the logi isn't on offenses but on support, and with theses changes and suggestions, the Amarr logi moves away from being offensive and more towards support (more lows for more ehp, more slots).

I'd be all for giving a partial respec (I mean, CCP already allows you to buy one, I think they'd be more liberal with handing out the free ones).

This is far from a suit-breaking change. Sure, you may need to rely on your teammates a bit more and not be as aggressive, but every other logi manages it so it's not impossible.

You do realize that a defining feature of the every other Logi has always been that they forgo a sidearm, right? There's no other suit in the game that is such an outlier in its class. And added offensive capability directly goes against its role as a logi. It's like giving an equipment slot to a heavy.

Basically, follow through with your slot change proposal shown in this spreadsheet, except:

• Remove Amarr Logi sidearm.


• Make equipment slot progression 3/4/4.


• Just throwing this out there, but perhaps a slight increase to logi base hp.

There, logistics should be more balanced and more viable at lower tiers as well as more consistent across races and with the other suits in general.

And to the inevitable Amarr-losing-sidearm-QQ posters, if I can live with all the nerfs and crap that's happened and are happening to Cal scouts and ADSs and still get by, you can handle losing your little sidearm (while getting more slots and equipment, which should be better if you actually want to play logi).

So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!

A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.

With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.

Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.

So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
[...]

So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!

A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.

With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.

Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.

So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!

A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.

With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.

Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.

Um, how am I an Assault/Scout QQer?!? I run Logi, I love Logi-ing. Having a sidearm is not a part of the Logi role. I run Assault, Logi, Sentinel, Commando and vehicles: I skilled out of scouts because of ridiculous advantages making them uninteresting.

So AmLogis. Why do they need a sidearm? To not be ****** when they run swarms? Why shouldn't they get ****** up when running a Swarm or other support type weapon? That is the point of an Assault: you're tougher and more versatile in a combat situation but don't have the breadth of equipment options/equipment support. What is the point of running an Assault with Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever, when you can run that Logi who can have EHP to rival it (300 total? Sure, you've just sacrificed a bunch of HP mods for something else, why does that only apply to Logis?) and then have the benefit of 2-3x the equipment slots?

Seriously, people make the point, why get rid of: well flip it over - why not? Especially when we can just have all of the slot layouts balanced more effectively without accounting for how good/bad a sidearm is. The Logi role does not need a sidearm toting version.

There is no good reason to keep it as much as there is no need to remove it, but what having it does is water down a very similar role that has been generally less used since about U1.1. Assaults are in a good place right now; Scouts are getting curtailed (sort of); Heavies are still dominant insofar as CQC is concerned; Logis are pretty solid - the suggestion that removing the Amarr sidearm will make the role rubbish or something is frankly ridiculous.

Just or the record, I do have an alt (technically my main) that runs Gal and Min logi (and Min assault a bit). It was my original account and was the first thing I specced into.

I only brought up the changes to Cal scouts and ADSs to show that even with huge changes (Am Logi losing a sidearm is nothing compared to the Cal and ADS), you can still be successful, though it may require a change in tactics/etc.

More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!

Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it.

...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid"

OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module.

Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations.



A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles.

A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary.



Edit:
As far as ADSs are concerned, I'd love to have a role as defined as a Logi. Currently we're toothless against even one AVer and simply less applicable than a normal DS,which are also pretty irrelevant. People complained about ADSs murdering infantry and decided to nerf everything about them but didn't actually allow them to function in any particular role.

The change to AmLogi would not nerf it: it would redefine it in line with all of the other Logis.

One, idgaf about that.

Why should anyone GAF what AmLogis think then? I don't remember being asked about the ADS nerf, why should you get a say in your role.

Frankly though, yes. If more than one had a sidearm, it would be a part of the role in some way, you would have two kinds of Logi. But answer this: why not give all Logis sidearms?