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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1072
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Posted - 2014.12.07 19:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
So...I really don't understand why it is imperative for the AmLogi to keep its sidearm: no other Logi has a sidearm but can fit Swarms/PLC/Laser yet I haven't seen heaps of complaints about the other Logis being defenceless. Quite frankly, if you want to run Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever and have a secondary defence, run an Assault, that's what it's for!
A Logi is supposed to focus on support: equipment primarily, but a Logi with a support weapon (LR, MD, PLC, etc) can do plenty of damage. If you want to be more front line, run an assault rifle (ScR, AR, RR or CR) because they are more versatile. If we're bringing up suit descriptions then the AmLogi having a sidearm infringes heavily upon the Assault role: Assaults are supposed to be the most versatile fighting suit.
With a sidearm and triple th equipment slots, an AmLogi does a better job at being a versatile combat suit but without the gun bonuses - instead it provides a much more rounded role overall.
Frankly, the AmLogi losing the sidearm is not the end of the world.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1079
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Posted - 2014.12.07 22:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Um, how am I an Assault/Scout QQer?!? I run Logi, I love Logi-ing. Having a sidearm is not a part of the Logi role. I run Assault, Logi, Sentinel, Commando and vehicles: I skilled out of scouts because of ridiculous advantages making them uninteresting.
So AmLogis. Why do they need a sidearm? To not be ****** when they run swarms? Why shouldn't they get ****** up when running a Swarm or other support type weapon? That is the point of an Assault: you're tougher and more versatile in a combat situation but don't have the breadth of equipment options/equipment support. What is the point of running an Assault with Swarms/PLC/Laser/whatever, when you can run that Logi who can have EHP to rival it (300 total? Sure, you've just sacrificed a bunch of HP mods for something else, why does that only apply to Logis?) and then have the benefit of 2-3x the equipment slots?
Seriously, people make the point, why get rid of: well flip it over - why not? Especially when we can just have all of the slot layouts balanced more effectively without accounting for how good/bad a sidearm is. The Logi role does not need a sidearm toting version.
There is no good reason to keep it as much as there is no need to remove it, but what having it does is water down a very similar role that has been generally less used since about U1.1. Assaults are in a good place right now; Scouts are getting curtailed (sort of); Heavies are still dominant insofar as CQC is concerned; Logis are pretty solid - the suggestion that removing the Amarr sidearm will make the role rubbish or something is frankly ridiculous.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1079
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Posted - 2014.12.07 23:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:More to the point of your post: You are the ones advocating for a major and unpopular change. Most important, and i cannot emphasize this enough, but there is nothing OP about the Amarr logi's sidearm!
Therefore any argument about "well, they nerfed my toy, so there" is totally invalid. By the same token, in the absence of OP-ness, if you want to make this kind of change, you need a way better argument for such a change than exists against it.
OPness has nothing to do with rebalancing, or rather, part of the suggested changes was to modify all of the layouts to have the same number of slots as each other: currently Am have less overall (even factoring in the sidearm) while Caldari exchange an equipment to gain a module.
Quite frankly, the sidearm isn't OP, but it is entirely to every other suit in the role. Either all Logis have a sidearm or none do, because otherwise they are not performing the same role and should be put under different specialisations.
John Demonsbane wrote:...And I had to lol at "logis are pretty solid"
A Logi running as a Logi in support of their squad is a great force multiplier. Keeping your Assaults/Heavies up and running at full armour and ammo; providing scans; picking up downed allies or dropping links for them to regroup on; while they still have a primary weapon to add fire support, either a rifle for infantry support, a support weapon to help suppress enemies or an AV weapon to assist in warding off vehicles.
A Logi in the Logi role is brilliant. The only reason I can see for the AmLogi to keep their sidearm is to make them better at running solo, which is entirely unnecessary.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
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Posted - 2014.12.07 23:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:One, idgaf about that.
Why should anyone GAF what AmLogis think then? I don't remember being asked about the ADS nerf, why should you get a say in your role.
Frankly though, yes. If more than one had a sidearm, it would be a part of the role in some way, you would have two kinds of Logi. But answer this: why not give all Logis sidearms?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
This argument is circular:
Why get rid of it?
Why not get rid of it?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:This argument is circular:
Why get rid of it?
Why not get rid of it? You were the ones who suggested it.
Indeed. It was suggested that all Logis gain the same number of modules/equipment slots. Apparently the AmLogi is awful without the sidearm, according to every naysayer in this thread.
The AmLogi will lose some fits and gain others. It will lose some random suits that are done by other suits (Assaults, Commandos and Scouts) and gain some additional resilience and/or EWar flexibility. How this is a nerf and not a sidegrade I don't understand. It's not a requirement for change, but the only argument I've seen to keep it is because it keeps some fits that you like.
Well guess what, I liked some of my ADS fits with passive resistance modules. Or what about the MinAslt fits with 5 highs? There are numerous changes that have been made that have rendered some fits unusable while being healthy for the game or role.
John Demonsbane wrote:Oh, and ill just leave this here.There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy.
The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.'
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits?
I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways.
The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1080
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed?
The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency?
I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits?
But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not?
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1081
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Posted - 2014.12.08 00:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
So essentially, I see four things:
Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role.
No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role.
Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.)
Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.)
Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1082
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Posted - 2014.12.08 05:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
John Demonsbane wrote:Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same.
By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low.
These points reek of special snowflake syndrome. There is no reason that another suit in the same role shouldn't be able to fit similarly (ie, with a sidearm) because there is no reasonable explanation for the Amarr to be the only one with a sidearm.
Either make it all, or make it none. The AmLogi sidearm is incongruous and doesn't fit the Logi role: either the role needs to morph or the AmLogi does, essentially.
As for inapplicability of CCP-fiat changes: seriously, pilot feedback was flat out ignored and more than four unique changes were made to AV/ADS balance in a single pass. Whether the ADS overperformed (according to the woefully inadequate KDR measurement Rattati spoke about) or not (if you considered that by Judge's analysis an ADS needed a 50 KDR to run a positive role, based on ISK and SP, as well as other stuff) the changes were done to try to balance the game and the role, not to keep one aspect of the community happy.
And at the end of the day, this change would, quite frankly, not be a nerf, it would be a modification of operation. Keeping 'unique fits' is pandering to sentimentality: you wanting to keep something because you like it and is no more a valid argument than the ADS one.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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