DUST Search - @Rattati: Logi Slot Layouts

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Thaddeus Reynolds wrote:

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

Great discussion, both of you.

To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes).

There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics

The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed.

This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input.

Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.

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John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:07:00 - [31] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: This argument is circular: Why get rid of it? Why not get rid of it? You were the ones who suggested it. Oh, and ill just leave this here. There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1080	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:15:00 - [32] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: This argument is circular: Why get rid of it? Why not get rid of it? You were the ones who suggested it. Indeed. It was suggested that all Logis gain the same number of modules/equipment slots. Apparently the AmLogi is awful without the sidearm, according to every naysayer in this thread. The AmLogi will lose some fits and gain others. It will lose some random suits that are done by other suits (Assaults, Commandos and Scouts) and gain some additional resilience and/or EWar flexibility. How this is a nerf and not a sidegrade I don't understand. It's not a requirement for change, but the only argument I've seen to keep it is because it keeps some fits that you like. Well guess what, I liked some of my ADS fits with passive resistance modules. Or what about the MinAslt fits with 5 highs? There are numerous changes that have been made that have rendered some fits unusable while being healthy for the game or role. John Demonsbane wrote: Oh, and ill just leave this here. There are at least 3 threads about dropships near the top there so I just linked the whole forum instead of the individual topics. The ADS thing didn't come out of thin air, and Rattati most certainly did ask for feedback. Let's just close the door on that analogy. The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:24:00 - [33] - Quote Oh yeah. Why not give all logis sidearms? That's a legitimate question. The short answer is that I don't see the need for any change to be made, for starters. I don't have problem with outliers that aren't OP, and believe that more variety > less. I propose it simply to appease, for lack of a better term, the people who do have a problem with that, or can't deal with asymmetry for whatever reason. Since I don't see the need for all logis to have a sidearm, and there is a clean division across the two alliances where one favors deployable EQ, another favors active EQ, so that's an obvious way to create symmetry without giving all logis sidearms. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 105	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:28:00 - [34] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: The ADS change came without acknowledging any pilot involvement and, in fact, came with an indictment by Rattati about how we didn't engage when the evidence is pretty prevalent. And, in point of fact, the ROF nerf was entirely out of the blue. What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1080	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:30:00 - [35] - Quote But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways. The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 105	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:33:00 - [36] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1080	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:36:00 - [37] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits? But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not? Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 106	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:42:00 - [38] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use a sidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? The only thing I've seen, reading between the lines, is, 'I want this because I want to stay special.' You didn't see my post on how the different types of logistics vessels exist in eve and I feel that the caldari one should also have a sidearm in order to maintain that equivalency? I think I saw it, must've just lost track of it. Anyway, as much as we should draw parallels Dust Logis are only somewhat like EVE Logi ships. For one thing,a Logi won't keep a Heavy up in a straight up fight against a solo Heavy: EVE Logistics ships can keep ships alive under heavy fire - should we change rep tools to be that effective on Logi suits? But really, why not give all Logis sidearms? Seriously, why the hell not? As my post stated: I acknowledge that Eve informs DUST design, it does not dictate it....and I think that the rep-tool could use some buffing (and we could use an infantry portable remote shield booster). as for why not give all Logis sidearms? I don't know why? Why shouldn't the Amarr be the only one with a sidearm? Why shouldn't the Caldari and Amarr have sidearms? Why the hell not? An argument phrased in this manner doesn't do anything constructive, and just leads to a circular argument as demonstrated above? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1081	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:47:00 - [39] - Quote So essentially, I see four things: Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role. No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role. Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.) Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.) Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 106	Posted - 2014.12.08 00:48:00 - [40] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: So essentially, I see four things: Give everyone a sidearm, then there's a balance point for the role. No one has a sidearm, then there's the balance point for the role. Give two sidearms (Am/Cal) and balance around that (ie, less modules or equipment.) Leave as is and have an outlier that is entirely incongruous to the role and the game in general (ie, no other role has such an outlier.) Honestly, I don't care which happens, but I do believe that any of the first three are far better than n having a single outlier. Now, that is a statement I can agree with, and I agree I would like to see the sidearm eliminated as an outlier. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.

Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2666	Posted - 2014.12.08 01:53:00 - [41] - Quote Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:19:00 - [42] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2666	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:31:00 - [43] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed. This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:36:00 - [44] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: Great discussion, both of you. To the point of Rattati's ADS input: most of the community suggestions weren't implemented and Rattati even says that there was one change that he made completely on his own without input even from the CPM (there's a dev post about it somewhere but I couldn't find it for the life of me). Same thing with the Cal scout changes, there was no discussion about the first change (precision > range/dampening) and there was no discussion about the new change coming in 1.10 (range amp reduction and other EWAR changes). There was a lot of discussion on the EWAR Changes, and the Range Amp reduction was made on community feedback on the concentric circle proposal (which me and several others had suggested months before the dev discussion came). As for the ADS and Cal scout changes, there was plenty of of community feedback about the Cal-scout (and the ADS for that matter) and they where, according to Rattati, over-performing. I would love to have access to the data to see if the Amarr Logistics was over-performing compared to the other logistics The discussion around the next EWAR change was mainly about the concentric circles. Rattati appears to have randomly decided to nerf range amps by 66.7% and buff base scan ranges for most suits It's even evident in the spread sheet, all the "proposed numbers" before 1.10 was announced show current numbers and the "set-in-stone" numbers show the new values. I didn't follow that thread too closely but I could swear I didn't see any discussion about base scan ranges or range amps getting nerfed. This trend follows through the Cal and ADS changes. There might be discussion on one specific aspect or a general consensus for some change, but CCP would either add something or decide one something without community input. There where a lot of posts in the thread on the power of range amps (since the proposed numbers spreadsheet clearly showed them being one of the most powerful EWAR mods). So in response to the community's feedback those changes where made. Caldari Scout and ADS changes where made on both community feedback and most importantly data...(which we don't have access to...yet). Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 02:59:00 - [45] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: But then, if variety is better, why shouldn't all Logis have sidearms? Because Amarr should be special? Why? Why not have two Logi suits, one with a sidearm and one without? Why shouldn't a GalLogi be allowed to use asidearm when an Amarr one is allowed? Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same. Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: What evidence is there that the sidearm is causing the Amarr Logistics suit to outperform the other suits or styles of play? (In all honesty, if you have access to the data, I would really love to see it). Is the Amarr Logistics suit being used in every match available because of a massive performance differential between it with the other suits? I never said it was overperforming: what part of the BAR was underperforming? Answer: it wasn't, it was simply less used whereas now it is superior to most other rifles in most ways. The reason we keep bringing this up is because the repeated use of the analogy that ADS and Cal scouts (both overperforming) being nerfed is therefore a valid reason to "shove this down our throats" whether we like it or not. I'm getting bored of repeating myself, but there was quite clearly input from the community and the example Simply. Does. Not. Apply. Here. as the situation is completely different - adjustments to deal with overperforming things are always necessary whether the community likes it or not. (See: Rail Rifle) Kallas Hallytyr wrote: The suggested change doesn't break the AmLogi. It just means that some fits become invalid while new ones become possible. By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 107	Posted - 2014.12.08 03:01:00 - [46] - Quote Redacted, my mistake Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4855	Posted - 2014.12.08 03:04:00 - [47] - Quote Also redacted, lol. We suck at forums. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1082	Posted - 2014.12.08 05:24:00 - [48] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Like I said, I don't have a problem with outliers so I don't think they all need one. Also, that would actually be less variety because then they would all be the same. By some fits you mean all the unique fits. It's not quite the same as losing a high or low. These points reek of special snowflake syndrome. There is no reason that another suit in the same role shouldn't be able to fit similarly (ie, with a sidearm) because there is no reasonable explanation for the Amarr to be the only one with a sidearm. Either make it all, or make it none. The AmLogi sidearm is incongruous and doesn't fit the Logi role: either the role needs to morph or the AmLogi does, essentially. As for inapplicability of CCP-fiat changes: seriously, pilot feedback was flat out ignored and more than four unique changes were made to AV/ADS balance in a single pass. Whether the ADS overperformed (according to the woefully inadequate KDR measurement Rattati spoke about) or not (if you considered that by Judge's analysis an ADS needed a 50 KDR to run a positive role, based on ISK and SP, as well as other stuff) the changes were done to try to balance the game and the role, not to keep one aspect of the community happy. And at the end of the day, this change would, quite frankly, not be a nerf, it would be a modification of operation. Keeping 'unique fits' is pandering to sentimentality: you wanting to keep something because you like it and is no more a valid argument than the ADS one. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.


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